I think Keen's new book Talk About Understanding and the one before to Understand may be helpful for this sort of thing. I just got them an have not completely read them but so far they seem to address this issue. Hope it helps
-----Original Message----- From: Palmer, Jennifer <[email protected]> To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group <[email protected]> Sent: Mon, Feb 20, 2012 4:28 pm Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] phonics program Sally Share whatever you wish with your students. I wouldn't put it out there on the list if I was protecting it as my personal intellectual property... :-) (thanks for asking though!) What I think your post brings into the picture is an idea I have been thinking long and hard about. Now that I am a professional developer and have left the classroom for a time, I have the privelege of seeing a lot of classroom instruction. What I see over and over, even with very good teachers, is a lack of professional knowledge...a lack of knowledge about current research. Now, let me define what I mean by professional knowledge here, before I get myself into trouble. My teachers know pedagogy... they know how to create assessments, they know how to create visuals and lovely presentation on the interactive whiteboard. They are very talented in so many ways...I am NOT meaning to diss them here. They know how to create opportunities for turn and talk, how to integrate movements. But what is missing is the big picture. They can assess phonics knowledge, but don't understand the continuum...how that builds. They can assess phonemic awareness, but don't know why students need this or how it affects reading and spelling. They can determine whether or not students can predict, but they don't understand how predicting can work together with other strategies like self questioning or inferring to help with comprehension. What is missing is the big picture... how comprehension, fluency, decoding is integrated. How one affects the other. They might say that a student who doesn't comprehend needs more strategy work but not see that the problem is not the thinking, it is the decoding...or the lack of vocabulary knowledge...or the lack of automaticity in word reading. They do the right things many times, without understanding of why they do them. They don't understand WHY it helps students to turn and talk...so they don't always use it to maximum benefit. They will create small groups during reading, without understanding that they don't have to be at the same reading level all the time, that the groups can be based on similar needs (phonics, fluency. even interest!!) So, I need to do something about this... but when? And with what money??? And common core along with a new observation and evaluation system is coming around the corner so staff development time will be sucked up with all that. I get discouraged too... but I see the listserv as a tool. Building true depth of knowledge in the area of reading so that more teachers can make the right choices for kids. When teachers don't understand why things work or don't work...when they lack the big picture.. and when profesional developers like me can't find a way to fill the gaps, the introduction of scripted "teacher proof" programs becomes a reasonable idea in the eyes of administrators. SO, let's keep getting the knowledge out there! Whatever vehicles it takes!! Jennifer Jennifer L. Palmer Instructional Facilitator National Board Certified Teacher Magnolia Elementary (home school) 901 Trimble Road Joppa, MD 21085 410-612-1553 Fax 410-612-1576 "In every child a touch of greatness!!' Proud of our Title One School Norrisville Elementary 5302 Norrisville Road White Hall, MD 21161 410-692-7810 Fax 410-692-7812 Where Bright Futures Begin!! ________________________________________ From: [email protected] [[email protected]] on behalf of Sally Thomas [[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 2:08 PM To: mosaic listserve Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] phonics program I agree with you Jennifer. Thanks for saying it so clearly. Would it be okay if I share it with my new teacher students? Also I think what makes me react so strongly to scripted programs is NOT that they don't use useful concepts (like the multisensory and the keyword associations you mention) but that in the hands of teachers (and administrators) who are not knowledgeable they get used in ways that I think are not positive in the long run. As you say, we need to know the developmental levels of unique children and help them learn "at their point of need." (I like this concept that I got from a long ago wonderful book on writing) And because, as teachers teach Wilson with some of the children not ready to get the point, often without realizing they spend more and more time teaching something some children already have and other children weren't ready for in the first place. Thus the balance tips way in the direction of phonics and meaning/comprehension gets neglected or put off until the children can decode. I would never argue that we don't need to teach decoding. We just need to teach it WITH comprehension, in fact as a necessary tool for reading with understanding. It is these dynamics - things gone way askew I see in schools. I am seeing pure test prep factories out there. I am seeing childen left further and further behind and becoming behavior problems because they are being asked to do whole class drill really on learnings they are not in any way ready for. I am not clear on whether or not the teachers on this list have seen the full blown horrors out there in many schools. And if they haven't, they may not understand my level of concern. Some days I just cry after I leave the school. Over and over I see practices that might seem innocuous to begin or even actually effective, but applied rigidly and applied to all children regardless of their developmental levels become destructive. Example daily oral language, or the new Treasures series calling for rigid 5 minute quickwrites or....the list goes on and on. So for our list I am only asking how we can create a place where quick requests re (FOR EXAMPLE) scripted phonics program don't automatically just slide by because we are an open source for information exchange. I absolutely know that there are many thoughtful wise teachers on this list who are asking because their districts are mandating something. And they will do their best to use the programs wisely and carefully and help others to do so. But there may also be those on the list who don't know the dangers yet. Was thinking perhaps we could ask people who post requests to give us some context? Why is the program being mandated. Are they already aware of what to look out for or to be concerned about? Are they asking for "critical" in the sense of challenging feedback (not in the sense of criticizing)? I had my students in my literacy class last week, choose one practice they saw being implemented in the classrooms where they are student teaching. They were to describe the practice and its supposed purpose. They were to describe its positive consequences and its potentially negative consequences. And then to share how they thought the practice might be impacting their "case study" student. Their "case studies" are usually students who might be struggling or somewhat behind by the usual school expectations (not mine or ours necessarily!) for a variety of reasons. It was very powerful. I know we wouldn't be able to mandate giving context on the list, but perhaps just being aware of a "rubric" so to speak to think about when considering any practice might help all of us to think and to respond more thoughtfully. I will try my best not to react so strongly that it feels like criticism. I am just overwhelmed at times at the destructive things that are happening around me in schools. And they often begin with districts/schools adopting programs or practices with no real background and no incentive to think critically before hopping on board. Thanks to anyone who has read this far. I know I get long winded. I at least feel better for having spilled this out. And thanks Jennifer and Bev for hopping back into the dialogue. Know you are both doing important work outside the list too but do so appreciate your leadership. Sally On 2/19/12 8:51 AM, "Palmer, Jennifer" <[email protected]> wrote: > Pat...I can tell you briefly what I think works about Wilson Fundations... it > is the keyword/letter/sound association. Learning a consistent picture and > keyword really helps struggling kids internalize that letter sound > relationship. I also liked the skywriting---the use of large muscle movements > helps the tactile kinesthetic kids. > > I think what is missing, even from Cunningham (who I love and borrow from all > the time), is the idea that word learning has a developmental component. When > we teach a phonics skill whole class there is only a small group ready for it. > Often 1/3 of the class already knows it... and another 1/3 is not ready. > Small group instruction based on developmental assessments of word knowledge > (like Words their Way) really made the ultimate difference for me. There is no > point drilling vowel digraphs when the child cannot even associate consonant > sounds with a letter. > > This is why I myself used Renees approach... poetry. Carefully choosing poems, > I could work with students in small needs groups on phonics skills while the > other students read. AND yes lots of opportunities to apply phonics through > reading at an independent and instructional level... along with many > opportunities to write... > > And of course, we need balance. In the early grades I think 1/3 of the time on > decoding and 2/3 on comprehension is about right. > > Jennifer L. Palmer > > Instructional Facilitator > > National Board Certified Teacher > > > > Magnolia Elementary (home school) > > 901 Trimble Road > > Joppa, MD 21085 > > 410-612-1553 > > Fax 410-612-1576 > > "In every child a touch of greatness!!' > > Proud of our Title One School > > > > Norrisville Elementary > > 5302 Norrisville Road > > White Hall, MD 21161 > > 410-692-7810 > > Fax 410-692-7812 > > Where Bright Futures Begin!! > > ________________________________________ > From: [email protected] > [[email protected]] on behalf of > Patricia Kimathi [[email protected]] > Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 9:33 AM > To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group > Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] phonics program > > I thank you so much for your post. I love this listserv and value the > ideas I have been able to gather from other members. I also value how > it allows be to think through my own ideas and hopefully share ideas > with others. I find that this is happening less in schools. I know > that this year the teachers I work with are veterans who have a wealth > of knowledge, but is has been awhile. On this listserv I have always > been able to think through my own beliefs. I do use many methods > with children based on their needs. I usually chose and pick what I > need from programs. This year we are using a program that has taken > from many different programs so I can use what I have always used and > say it is based on their program. I tweak what they have to match > what I need to teach. I can really see growth. But the core of > everything is Mosaic and the reading comprehension strategies I have > learned from this work. > Please continue to share ideas and be kind to each other as you do > it. Even those of us who would like to be purest can gain information > from each other. I am now interested in how you were able to use > parts of Wilson with Mosaic. I will not ask you to share on the list > so not to bore others, but I am interested. > PatK > On Feb 17, 2012, at 3:52 PM, Palmer, Jennifer wrote: > >> I learned a lesson about listening and learning from colleagues >> with different opinions. And, when my attitude shifted, my >> supervisor was more willing to listen to me and give me the >> flexibility I needed to do what I felt was right for kids. Education >> is about relationships... I would argue that online relationships >> are worth protecting as well. Let's think about how we might protect >> those relationships here before we send off an emotionally charged >> post. >> >> As for a common belief system,I think we'd better be careful with >> our assumptions. It's time for a reality check. We have thousands of >> members and I can pretty much assure you that there are many >> different beliefs represented here. > > PatK > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mosaic mailing list > [email protected] > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > _______________________________________________ > Mosaic mailing list > [email protected] > To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org > > Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive > _______________________________________________ Mosaic mailing list [email protected] To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive _______________________________________________ Mosaic mailing list [email protected] To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive _______________________________________________ Mosaic mailing list [email protected] To unsubscribe or modify your membership please go to http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/options/mosaic_literacyworkshop.org Search the MOSAIC archives at http://snipurl.com/MosaicArchive
