I would be delighted if the answer became cut and dry, modulo the fact that if the cut-and-dry document became a laundry list for everyone's favorite thing, that could move the goalposts pretty far for existing podlings.
On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 6:49 PM, John D. Ament <johndam...@apache.org> wrote: > So personally I think its great to get input from current podlings on a > subject like this. > > I've made some proposed changes on a separate thread, but I almost think > between your comments and Roman's comments... should we just drop the > current "policy" document and make the guides the policy documents? There > shouldn't be opinions on what makes a functioning podling, it should be > pretty cut and dry: > > - public discussions > - apache licensed code > - made successful releases without issues > - using ASF infra resources > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 4:17 PM Jim Apple <jbap...@cloudera.com> wrote: > >> One way to make The Guide clearer is to make The Policy more accurate. >> As it is, The Policy is contradicted in various other places on the >> lists or in the guide or in practice, so as a person who is trying to >> understand what incubation and graduation are really like, The Policy >> doesn't read as "The Policy" but as a single unreliable source in a >> tangled web of practice and theory that includes The Guide. >> >> Consider this single snippet from The Policy: >> >> "Release plans are developed and excuted[sic] in public by the community. >> (requirement on minimum number of such releases?) >> Note: incubator projects are not permitted to issue an official >> Release. Test snapshots (however good the quality) and Release plans >> are OK. >> Engagement by the incubated community with the other ASF communities, >> particularly infrastructure@ (this reflects my personal bias that >> projects should pay an nfrastructure[sic] "tax")." >> >> Line 2 is a question. Who wrote it? What is the answer? Why is there >> an embedded question in The Policy at all? >> >> Line 3 seems contrary to actual practice. >> >> Line 4 includes "my personal bias". Whose bias is that? Is that bias >> now policy, or is it still just a personal opinion? >> >> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 7:35 PM, John D. Ament <johndam...@apache.org> >> wrote: >> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 10:19 PM Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 6:16 AM, John D. Ament <john.d.am...@gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 6:04 PM Greg Stein <gst...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:06 PM, John D. Ament < >> johndam...@apache.org> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:57 PM Greg Stein <gst...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:26 AM, John D. Ament < >> >> johndam...@apache.org> >> >> >> > > wrote: >> >> >> > > >... >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > > Graduation Guide >> >> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > Added a link to the Maturity Model as a step to follow for >> >> >> graduation. >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > There has been past controversy on including that as a graduation >> >> step. >> >> >> > I'm >> >> >> > > not clear that was a proper addition. Every discussion has said >> >> that it >> >> >> > can >> >> >> > > be used as a *guide*, rather than as a checklist. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I argued myself into adding this one. While I don't disagree with >> >> your >> >> >> > perspective, every time a podling graduates it comes up from board >> >> >> > members. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Some Directors != The Board >> >> >> >> >> >> The Board has never required the IPMC to use the APMM as a >> requirement >> >> for >> >> >> graduation. And, I don't recall the IPMC making that requirement >> either. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > The IPMC did not prepare the maturity model, yet somehow it >> >> >> > applies to podlings planning to graduate. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Says who? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > I'll point out that the page itself states this is only a guide, >> not a >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> On graduation.html, you list "Complete the Apache Project Maturity >> >> Model" >> >> >> as one of the preparation steps. That does not sound like a guide. >> >> >> >> >> >> policy. So I don't think we've changed Incubator policy by adding a >> >> link. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> By listing it like that on the graduation page, it is de facto >> policy. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > I could see it being stated as more of "compare the podlings >> actions >> >> and >> >> >> > behaviors against the maturity model. I could also see it moving >> into >> >> >> the >> >> >> > "Other Issues" section of the guide instead of the checklist >> section. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Thoughts? >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Personally, I'd be fine with the link under "Other Issues". Something >> >> like >> >> >> "You may find the APMM a useful guide, to look at different factors >> in >> >> your >> >> >> podling's community." (<waves-hand> on phrasing) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > I think at this point, we're just arguing semantics. I've drafted the >> >> > following for the other issues section. I've removed it from the >> >> checklist >> >> > section. >> >> >> >> The feedback I consistently get from all the podlings I mentor is that >> >> it would be really great if our documentation clearly separated policy >> >> from advice. In fact, having two separate documents is what they >> >> all seem to have in mind. Today we have guides which are pretty verbose >> >> and mix the two. >> >> >> > >> > I've gotten the same type of questions. The problem is that this line >> > already exists in the graduation "guide" >> > >> > This is just a guide. Policy is stated here. (where here is a link to the >> > actual policy document) >> > >> > Anyway you can think to make it clearer? >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Roman. >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
