On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 5:28 AM Douglas Foster < [email protected]> wrote:
> It should be obvious that lists need conditional munging. Since the > feature is lacking, I have to ask why? The problem has festered for more > than 10+ years, so there has been plenty of time for new code to be > written. I have to conclude that people like to complain about the > problem but don't really care to get it fixed. This is especially true of > IETF, since they had the resources to develop a custom munging algorithm > but never had the motivation to make it conditional. > I think this paragraph betrays a misunderstanding of what it is we do here. If you think this needs to be done, do you have an implementation we can look at? Experimental test results? Anything beyond theorizing? Otherwise, I think I can reduce this to "This group needs to go implement this and standardize it" with an inferred "(but it won't be me)", and at some point that pattern becomes insulting. Speaking for myself, my time and energy is not unbounded. If you want something to happen in a group like this, it's on you to build consensus about it. Convince us you're right, that a general investment has a chance of paying off. Write a draft, show your work. Data wins arguments. Any real fix to the munging problem depends on the lists changing their > behavior. The lack of interest in Ale's solution, or anything like it, is > consistent with the historic pattern of whining about the problem rather > than solving it. > This tone doesn't motivate me to do much of anything but get annoyed. The way you sway consensus is not to cast aspersions, but to prove you're right. DKIM was successful because contemporaneously with development of the standard, we wrote the code and gave it away for free so people could test it live. There was broad adoption in lots of environments, so we could see it working, at scale, with many implementations. We could change or drop parts of the spec as needed because we could see they weren't working. Nobody is doing that here. So, before you accuse the rest of us of whining and inertia again, I'd love to hear your answer to this: Who has, or plans, to implement this idea? Any MLMs? Major clients? Anyone? Does it stand a chance of success? Why is this the right investment? Rough consensus and running code. -MSK
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