Hi Thomas,
On Do, 04 Okt 2012, Thomas Kremer wrote:
> And if you mean by "propose" that I was to give a complete splitting
> strategy on what should go where, I naively thought the maintainer would
> know better than me anyway, but if asked I would propose one font family
> per package. If there are actions involved (mktexlsr etc.), I propose
> using an apt trigger.
A few facts (easy to find out yourself, but for your convenience):
* Debian package splitting follows upstream collections
* packaging eahc TeX Live package into one Debian package was reject
years ago (would add 2000+) packages
* triggers are already used
> Now here is a point I don't understand: What does upstream have to do
> with debian packages?
See the first point above. If you don't convince upstream (which by
chance also consists of me and some others), there will be no change
in packaging. (Well, of course you are invited to provide an alternative
packaging of TeX Live, if you manage!)
> There are undoubtedly many other packages that split the compiled output
> of their sources into smaller binary packages (e.g. when splitting into
> -data, -doc, -dev etc.) without needing written consent by upstream.
Irrelevant, see above.
> Well, maybe that's because you start attacking people before even asking
> for any proposals.
Unfortunately I have asked too many times about that, without any
feedback. Consult the mailing list archives. People telling me that
this and that language should not go with this and that, but nobody
*nobody* actually sat down *ONCE* and read through the upstream packaging
and splitting into packages, collections, schemes and came up with
a better - no - with *ANY* proposal. I assume (sorry for that), that you
will not be any exception.
> Maybe you're also mistaking the Bug Tracking System for a Bug Fixing
> System, where users can fix the bugs they find for you.
This is NOT a bug! This is a *inconvenience* for you, but tell me what
is the *bug*?
Is there a technical statement in the policy that packages should not be
bigger than 400M?
> I'd probably already have a patch waiting, if I had enough disk space
> and bandwidth to download the source package (in reasonable time) and
> work with it.
HAHAHA, should I send you the DVD of the TeX Live collection?
BTW, the source packaging in our svn repository is small, as it does not
contain the .orig.tar.gz. Go ahead!
> > Especially remarks like "in the light of several-year-ignored ..."
> > disqualify you the moment I read them.
>
> Well, perhaps I have seen too many really old bugs that were simply not
> fixed at all. Which had patches, that worked.
Hahahaha, and do you think that providing an arbitrary patch guarantees
that it will be included?
Only because someone tagged a bug with "patch" dos not mean that the
patch has any relevance.
> And perhaps it is simply inappropriate to not even respond to someone
> who has found a bug and gone though the trouble of figuring out how to
> sensibly use the bug tracking system (which is btw not trivial) and
> ignore it for the next four years.
First, ever typed in "reportbug" on the commandline?
Second, if someone is not able to manage bug reports system, then his/her
bug reports will in 99% be anyway useless.
Do you think we are not aware of the size of the packages???
Don't you see that we have already split documentation from run files
in many cases?
Do you really think that packaging TeX Live is such a simple task
that it escapes my attention how big packages are?
> I appreciate your work, but it is simply inappropriate to leave someone
> hanging for years, who wants to contribute, even if he only manages to
> point out a bug and not also to fix it.
Examples, please.....
> For Bug #591064, for example, the good solution would be:
See please the message attached to each bug report:
The Debian TeX Team is *NOT* a LaTeX Help Desk!!!
There are many forums to ask these questions, and you will get answers
within minutes, becasue there are hundreds of peoples reading
these posts (tex.stackexchange, c.t.t, your local user group).
Here on this list we are a few, maybe 5, and actively working on the
the TeX Live packages are practically only me.
Now, do you *REALLY* think I will make a LaTeX help desk for someone
who mixes metafont fonts with xelatex?
Do you really want me to spend my time helping people learning how
to use LaTeX?
So , for an example, I install libreoffice the first time and try to
get a table with computation of the cells right, but it does not work
because I have no idea how to do excel-like computations.
I write a bug report, because I am lazy to study the manuals myself.
DO you expect the maintainer of libreoffice to answer this bug
and make a course for the bug reporter on how to use librecalc?
No, *I* will not make LaTeX help desk, nor quick introduction courses,
nor anything like that.
Bugs of this kind I normally close, if I don't because I ignored them
at some point they may rot forever in the BTS (which I consider BTW
anyway not very useful at all). That is life, I honestly don't care.
Coming back to your "good solution"
[...]
> That would be a good solution, don't you think?
And, why not do this you yourself? If you have so much capacity, go
ahead, we are happy if you close some bugs for us.
> > But I doubt your capacity on that!
>
> Well, that's one hell of an assumption for someone speaking to a stranger.
Pure assumptions, sure, but based on year long experience with people
asking this kind of questions in this kind of tone.
Norbert
(who wasted too much time on that already, I could have tested upgrades
from stable to testing for the new versions of telxive-base instead,
but users and bug reporters of this typoe just steal time, precious
time. Well, so the upload for *real* problems now has to wait for
later, next week, no idea, thanks to your *important* problem of
having to download 400M)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Norbert Preining preining@{jaist.ac.jp, logic.at, debian.org}
JAIST, Japan TeX Live & Debian Developer
DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094
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