At 11:09 AM -0800 2/16/00, Anonymous remailer wrote:
>Harmon Seaver writes:
>[snip]
>> Fascism is the melding of evil governments and evil corporations. The
>> US government today is clearly fascist. Tim, with his preference of fascist
>> regimes over anything even smacking of social justice, coupled with his
>> racism and anti-semeticism, is clearly a Nazi.
>
>Tim has never (that I've seen) expressed any preference for fascist
>or Nazi regimes. In every case, he has instead called for the
>abolition of governments (and most particularly our current government).
>
>OTOH, your message with its whining about how US multinational
>corporations are enslaving workers in banana republics clearly
>implied a call for government to fix the problem. By his commiepunk
>comment, Tim basically just labeled that position as socialist.
>I'm not sure that follows directly, but in the context of your other
>comments on this list which constantly seem to be calling for
>government fixes for what you believe to be social injustices, I'd say
>Tim's right on target.
I've been reading Harmon Seaver's comments about "social justice" for a
long time, so I had a pretty clear idea that his/her politics are basically
socialist. His/her recent comments about the poor oppressed banana pickers,
forced to give up their jobs in the Web hosting infrastructure business so
that they could work for 35 cents an hour for a Megacorp just reinforces
what we already know.
(As a side note, one of the reasons the Guatemalan banana farmers are
currently hurting is that Europe, in its non-American imperialist
superiority, is imposing high tariffs on bananas coming from countries
which are not or were not its colonies. So Europe favors bananas from
British Guinea and French Curacao, or whatever, and heavily tariffs bananas
from Guatemala. Standard mercantilism, having little or nothing to do with
socialism vs. capitalism. Ask the French Socialist government.)
>> The peasantry of Latin America has been driven into the
>> cities by the "anti-guerilla" actions of the local military (which wouldn't
>> be possible without US support), have had their ancestral lands stolen
>>by the
>> large corporate agri-business, timber companies, etc., and turned into
>> wage-slaves for corporate profit.
Actually, the history of the modern world is of people moving to large
cities. Some of us have moved back into the country, but for most folks in
Guatemala, Zaire, Romania, Russia, Thailand, etc., the better jobs and
opportunities are in the cities. There are many reasons for this, but
capitalism vs. socialism is not the central issue. (Under the socialist
rule in Russia, as an obvious example, Moscow became _the_ place to be.
It's concentration in the cities, and especially into the capital city, was
much greater than in most capitalist countries. And Russia heavily
industrialized (with inefficiencies) and essentially built factory farms
way. Whether it was called socialism or communism or corporatism, same
result.)
Harmon's lament about the lost days of Walden Pond and Man's oneness with
nature are out of synch with unstoppable trends brought on by the
Industrial Revolution. Politics has little to do with it.
Guatemalans are going to see their sons and daughters catching the first
donkey ride into Tegucigalpa no matter what political system is in place.
Once they've heard MTV how ya gonna keep them on the farm? (Especially when
picking bananas pays about 12 cents a day.)
That Harmon has no feel for this basic reality betrays his/her limitations.
>
>This is not and should not be a problem for our government.
>
>> We see the exact same pattern occurring in
>> the US, and this pattern is escalating as our local industry moves their
>> operations to the Third World, leaving US factory folk, who were making a
>> living, sometimes a "good" living, scrambling; and US farmers being kicked
>> off the farm in droves by the machinations of corporate agri-business and
>> banks/Federal Reserve. They just have a bigger cliff to fall off of, but
>> they'll soon be in the same boat as the peasants of Latin America.
Yep, Harmon's a Commie. All the right buzzphrases.
Unemployment in the United States is at a 33-year low. All those who _want_
to work, can work, usually with excellent pay.
Part of the nature of an interlinked world economy is that people buy from
the optimal producers. If shoe production was once a big deal in the U.S.,
but no longer is, so be it. Production of chips and biotech and software
has replaced shoe production. So be it. Part of the process of the whole
world becoming richer.
>> Tim thinks this outlook is communist? I think it has to do with
>>basic
>> justice and freedom -- and you ain't free if you can't make a decent, living
>> wage -- not socialism.
Read the bit about unemployment being at a 33-year low. And that's a _very_
low level, almost at what economists would say is rock bottom. (Anyone not
employed now is not seeking employment, but handouts and excuses. Let them
starve.)
>> and supplying massive amounts of small arms and
>>rocket
>> launchers to the peasants, and let them sort it out.
>
>...let the peasants also buy their own damn arms.
Rocket launchers in the hands of the "peasants" is not going to change the
basic trends I outlined above. It may remove one band of thugs and replace
them with another band of thugs. It may mean United Fruit Company has its
operations nationalized and replaced by a state-run enterprise. However,
the People's Fruit Company will likely be even less efficient, and hence
will pay workers even less, for the simple reason that while the rocket
launch brigade may be able to nationalize the operations of United Brands
(the current name of the company, as I recall), they cannot gain access to
the financial assets of UB! Hence they start in the hole. And western
bankers likely won't lend them money.
Anyway, this scenario has been played out many times. Cuba, for example.
Rhodesia, for another.
The Turd World countries keep making the mistakes Marx told them to make.
>You're clearly just another closet-socialist liar. You don't hate
>government; you just hate some of the things it's currently doing and
>want to have it do other things instead. You still want to steal
>money from the rest of us and use it for things other than what we
>would use it for.
Yep, this is our Harmon.
>A final note:
>
>Tim is constantly being called a Nazi. The only apparent reason for
>this is that Tim frequently uses racial and ethnic slurs in his points
>(nigger, raghead, "the Zionist worm", etc.).
>I suspect Tim does this not out of True Belief in the superiority or
>inferiority of different races or ethnicities but just to differentiate
>between those who can rub two neurons together and those that can't.
Very insightful. I find that my true friends, and those who have an
independent way of thinking, understand full well what I am intending with
my words. (Note that I usually use the phrase "sand nigger" to capture the
attitude statist Israelis usually have about those whom they expelled with
the aid of Western guilt money.)
As for those who are offended by my words, good. This serves as a useful
filter.
>Most newbies to the list (like you, Harmon) see Tim utter a racial slur
>and immediately impute all sorts of Nazi-esque political positions to
>him that he has never expressed. Don't you get it? He's just doing it
>to be politically incorrect; to provoke you into knee-jerk reactions
>that betray your inability to think independently. Obviously it works
>quite well.
Harmon looks for evidence of social injustice and thoughtcrime wherever
he/she can find it.
Hilarious.
-_Tim May
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
"Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.
