Hi Robert,
No questions the existence of names with a language. I do not remember
doing that.
I simply try, as often, to teach the group principles.
The scope note for E41 explicitly says:
"Different languages may use different appellations for the same thing,
such as the names of major cities. Some appellations may be formulated
*using a valid noun phrase of a particular language*. In these cases,
the respective instances of E41 Appellation should also be declared as
instances of E33 Linguistic Object. Then the language using the
appellation can be declared with the property /P72 has language/: E56
Language."
May be it is not clear, *what *I am discussing.
*As long *as on the application side, we declare E41_E33 , it is still
up to the user to decide which sense of linguistic object we apply.
*If* the proposal is to *introduce a new Multiple IsA class* into
CRMbase, all good practice requires *to write a scope note* and to
clarify in which sense it is a linguistic object and the property P72 is
applied. The class instance itself is then associated with the property,
and not its incidental use.
This is a general ontological principle we apply, sine qua non. If we
ignore that, we would further create a conflict with P139:
"This property should not be confused with additional variants of names
used characteristically for a single, particular item, such as
individual nicknames. It is a directed relationship, where the range
expresses the derivative or variant and the domain the source of
derivation or original form of variation, if such a direction can be
established. "
That was my comment below.
What is your opinion, does anything prevent any name to be used in any
language?
Therefore, I follow the usual discourse to help identifying ontological
distinctions.
For instance, https://www.behindthename.com/name/joshua provides
languages to name variants. This use should definitely be included if we
decide a new class for CRMbase.
If we decide to include in P72 also a "made for" , or
"characteristically used by" for E41-E33, we have to describe that. If
we decide against, we have to decide that. If we are not able to decide,
we leave the application in the RDFS as is, because it is not mature for
ontological standardization at an international level, but resolved
application-wise.
I asked for Farsi, because to my best knowledge, Iran uses the Arabic
script. Therefore a transcription of Douglas Adams to Arabic script
equally applies to Farsi and Arabic. As such, it would not be "Arabic".
I hope that makes my reasoning clearer.
All the best,
Martin
On 11/10/2022 8:45 PM, Robert Sanderson wrote:
Hi Martin,
No one is proposing anything other than P72. Please stop creating
issues where none exist :)
"The Big Apple" is a name for the Place which is also known as "New
York City".
Does anyone disagree that "The Big Apple" is in English with the
precise semantics of P72, or that it is not a Name for that Place?
Rob
On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 1:31 PM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig
<[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Gordon,
"The Library of Congress has only recently stopped assigning
gender to the referant of a name",
That is interesting!
I'd kindly ask for your expert opinion, about the "language" of a
name.
We had introduced the language property of a title because of the
frequent cases of words of a natural language and their translations.
Here, my question is:
A) In library practice, do you associate a name with a language,
and what would be the rules.
George wrote: "He has a transliterated name: Abū l-Walīd Muḥammad
Ibn ʾAḥmad Ibn Rušd . Is that his name in Arabic or English or no
language? I don't know. Both? Maybe. I'm not a scholar of
philosopher's names and it's not my province to judge. This is not
the domain of the ontologist but the specialist in onomastics or
the appropriate discipline. "
I absolutely disagree with that. Can transliteration to another
script change and produce a language-specificity? That is
definitely an ontological question. Otherwise, we have no concept
at all for this property.
My example of Joshua had another purpose: The spelling and
pronunciation "Josua" is the one used in German, but not
exclusively. "Joshua" in English (and?), may be Yeshua
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua> in Hebrew written in Latin
script? If this is the case, they are variants shaped and used in
different language groups. That would justify a language-specificity.
B) If the meaning of the language property we are seeking for is
not the language of the name, but the suitable use in a language
group of the name for the named instance, then, it is a
subproperty of P1 and not P72. Such as "is typically identified in
English by...etc. That *is *an ontological question.
All the best,
Martin
On 11/10/2022 1:21 PM, Gordon Dunsire wrote:
All
A librarian expresses an initial opinion:
What about gender of a name? E.g. "Gordon" is male; "Gordana" is
female. The Library of Congress has only recently stopped
assigning gender to the referant of a name, which has resulted in
howlers like "Robert Galbraith" (pseudonym of J.K. Rowling) is a
male because the name is 'male'.
RDA: resource description and access is an implementation of the
IFLA Library Reference Model (entity-relationship version). Names
and titles are given equal treatment; the only difference between
a 'name' and a 'title' is that 'title' is the traditional word
for the 'name' of an information resource. Since LRM/RDA has four
'resource entities', we have 'title of work', 'title of
expression', 'title of manifestation', and 'title of item'; all
other entities have 'name": 'name of place', 'name of time-span',
'name of agent', etc.
This discussion exposes a further difference, but it is not
absolute. A 'title' is usually composed of words, etc. taken from
a natural language: "Ceci n'est pas une pipe" uses French words;
"The treachery of images" uses English words; "La trahison des
images" is back to French; "The wind and the song" is back to
English ... On the other hand, a 'name' is usually composed of
words, etc. that have no other use in natural language. But there
are many counter-examples, and the distinction may not exist in a
specific language group (e.g. Chinese?).
Although RDA has a property for 'has language of nomen' ('nomen'
being the generic term for 'name/title', 'access point', and
'identifier'), the expectation is that it only has utility for
'title', but not 'name'.
The sibling property 'has script of nomen' has utility for names
and titles. It is important for transliterations.
On 09/11/2022 20:02 GMT George Bruseker via Crm-sig
<[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Martin,
I don't see an ontological problem here. One name can be used by
/ in many languages. If it is, that can be documented.
The question was not if names can belong to language, or if
langauges create names. It was how this is unambiguously
defined.
It isn't our job as ontologists to unambiguously define the
instances of things in the world. This is for the domain
specialists.
The example below is what I feared. The fact that the arabic
script is mainly used for Arabic, does itr make a
*transcript *of an English name "Arabic?" why not Farsi? I
ask here for the Librarians to express their opinion.
Who documents the object, documents their knowledge and,
hopefully, thereby, the state of affairs in the world.
I don't understand the Farsi aspect of the above question. Why
would transliterating a name into English from Arabic make it
Farsi? Librarians?
Here's a person with a name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes
His name is ابن رشد in Arabic and also أبو الوليد محمد ابن احمد
ابن رشد.
With E33_E41 we can say that. Without it, we can't.
His name in English is usually Averroes and also he is known as
Ibn Rushd.
With E33_E41 we can say that. Without it, we cant.
He has a transliterated name: Abū l-Walīd Muḥammad Ibn ʾAḥmad
Ibn Rušd . Is that his name in Arabic or English or no language?
I don't know. Both? Maybe. I'm not a scholar of philosopher's
names and it's not my province to judge. This is not the domain
of the ontologist but the specialist in onomastics or the
appropriate discipline.
Why is Douglas Adams not "German"? I would use it in German
exactly in this form.
Then put in the KB for this name 'has language English' and 'has
language German' and the problem is solved.
But "Adams" I think is a last name exclusive to English, as
Dörr to German.
What is the language of "Martin", "Martino", of
Martin: Identical in English, Spanish, French, Dutch,
German, Norwegian, Danish, Swedish?
If that is what the expert in onomastics thinks, yes. Not an
ontological issue. We provide the semantic framework, they do
the researching.
Martino in Italian, Rumanian?
From Wikipedia: "Joshua".
*Josua* or *Jozua* is a male given name and a variation of
the Hebrew name Yeshua
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua>.^[1]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua#cite_note-1> ^[2]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua#cite_note-2> Notable
people with this name include:
* Josua Bühler
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_B%C3%BChler>
(1895–1983), Swiss philatelist
* Josua de Grave
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_de_Grave>
(1643–1712), Dutch draughtsman and painter
* Josua Harrsch
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Harrsch>
(1669–1719), German missionary
* Josua Hoffalt
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Hoffalt> (born
1984), French ballet dancer
* Josua Järvinen
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_J%C3%A4rvinen>
(1871–1948), Finnish politician
* Josua Koroibulu
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Koroibulu> (born
1982), Fijian rugby league footballer
* Josua Heschel Kuttner
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Heschel_Kuttner>
(c. 1803–1878), Jewish Orthodox scholar and rabbi
* Josua Lindahl
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Lindahl>
(1844–1912), Swedish-American geologist and paleontologist
* Josua Maaler
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Maaler>
(1529–1599), Swiss pastor and lexicographer
* Josua Mateinaniu
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Mateinaniu>
(fl. 1835), Fijian missionary
* Josua Mejías
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Mej%C3%ADas> (born
1997), Venezuelan footballer
* Johann Josua Mosengel
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Josua_Mosengel>
(1663–1731), German pipe organ builder
* Jozua Naudé (disambiguation)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jozua_Naud%C3%A9_(disambiguation)>,
several people
* Josua Swanepoel
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Swanepoel> (born
1983), South African cricketer
* Josua Tuisova
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Tuisova> (born
1994), Fijian rugby union player
* Josua Vakurunabili
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Vakurunabili> (born
1992), Fijian rugby union player
* Josua Vici <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josua_Vici>
(born 1994), Fijian rugby union player
Following scripts, only /יְהוֹשֻׁעַ
<https://www.behindthename.com/support/transcribe?type=HB&target=Y%3Ahwos%5Eu%5E%22a%5E>/
would be Hebrew, but Yeshua
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua> English?
This is a question for the knowledge base. The English speaker
writing this article thinks that "Josua" applies to these
people. It is up to them to instantiate an instance of the
class, call it Hebrew and then assign it as a name of those
individuals. If someone wants to dispute this, they can use
negative properties. I don't know if the above wikipedia article
is true or not, but I would like to be able to represent that
data in the KB so that I could try to find out.
So, not sure why that's a blocker.
Best,
George
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Cheers
Gordon
--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:[email protected]
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
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--
Rob Sanderson
Director for Cultural Heritage Metadata
Yale University
--
------------------------------------
Dr. Martin Doerr
Honorary Head of the
Center for Cultural Informatics
Information Systems Laboratory
Institute of Computer Science
Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH)
N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton,
GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece
Vox:+30(2810)391625
Email:[email protected]
Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl
_______________________________________________
Crm-sig mailing list
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