**
Everyone,
I thought I would share a few thoughts….
We do listen to requests and feedback and often react to it. However,
sometimes things are not as simple as they seem…
Let’s take this case as an example. You can have three types of
things that you are looking at when in Best Practice mode:
1)An unaltered definition that is just being read through from the
base – no delete is possible here
2)An overlaid definition that is present in base – delete of the
overlay is possible but not of the base definition
3)A custom object that does not exist in base – delete here deletes
the object
All of the focus of the thread has been on the wording of the Delete
operation and should it be called Delete Overlay.
I actually think that the concept is a good one. However, be aware
that there really needs to be three states for the menu choice:
1)It is disabled as it is not possible
2)Delete Overlay to emphasize you are only deleting the overlay and
not the object
3)Delete to emphasize it is a custom object and you are REALLY
deleting the object not an overly
Then, let’s look at the next topic – I believe you can multi-select
items and then pick Delete…. What should the menu choice be if you
select three items, one of each of the above categories, and then
select Delete? Should it be disabled because one is just a read
through? Should it say Delete Overlay because one is an overlay?
Should it say Delete because one is a custom object? More complexity…
Does it say Delete and Delete Overlay? Do we remove the multi-select
(of if it is not there, never add it)?
I am not objecting to the request and in fact think there is value in
the request, but just be aware that there is sometimes more to the
issue than it may at first seem.
Now, there are icons that indicate if something is an overlay, a
custom object, or a base object bleeding through so you can tell which
is which – but does it need to be more?
And, about the not being in base mode discussion….
I would agree and argue that you should not be in base mode.
In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that you should have most –
all the day to day Admin logins and any special access Admin user –
LOCKED to the overlay layer. Check the documentation, it allows you
to lock an Admin into a specific layer. They can go into the other
layer (well, this depends on version, current versions let you in read
only to other layers, but older versions blocked them entirely) but no
change is possible. Doing this guarantees that there are no mistakes
and that no one is accidentally in the wrong mode and making changes.
(and yes, BMC should lock our Admins to base to prevent accidentally
creating custom objects in the overlay layer)
You always have some super Admin who is not locked to Base in case you
do need to go into that layer. They could also change the rights of
an Admin to remove the restriction locking them to Best Practice –
there is logic that doesn’t allow an Admin locked to a layer to change
the permissions to override that lock.
Note that you can use this same ability to also lock an Admin to an
undefined layer so that they can make no structure changes at all but
can access data. This is good for a data access but read only
definition Admin or for Admins used for integrations that only do data
so that they cannot be used to change structures regardless of what
calls are made.
So, we have deviated from the original topic a bit.
I just wanted to note that not having action taken is not always a
sign of disagreement or of ignoring. Sometimes the problem is simply
more complex than it seems nad more work needs to be done to make a
decision. Then, there is the entire balancing of requests to pick the
ones that make the most difference. Please keep the ideas and
requests coming as without them being shared, there is almost 0 chance
of them being done as we don’t know about them.
Doug Mueller
*From:*Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Joe D'Souza
*Sent:* Monday, April 27, 2015 6:02 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: How to - Remove all Overlays from a Form
**
Despite being comfortable with the labels personally, I do think there
is a point to all this.
But until that becomes a reality, just know that when you are in the
best practice mode, the deletion of base objects is not allowed by the
tool. So there is nothing to fear there.
It’s only when you switch the mode to Base Development that you risk
loosing stuff.
As a practice, YOU SHOULD NEVER be in the Base Development mode if you
are using ITSM or any of the OTB Remedy applications. It offers you no
benefit at all to be in the Base Development mode, UNLESS you are on
one of the following exceptional cases:
1)Fixing a bug in the base object with BMC Remedy Support recommending
that fix. So if you do not want to unnecessarily create an overlay
because BMC Support explicitly tells you that they will be fixing that
in an upcoming patch or release, feel free to modify the base object.
2)For whatever reason best known to you, you are in the need of
creating a new base object which you know will not interfere with BMC
developed objects because of the way your object is named (names using
a prefix that identify your company, etc.)
There is no other reason why you should be using the Base Development
mode in my opinion. If you do so, you are violating one basic
assumption BMC is making in order to make your upgrades an easier
experience.
An easy way to differentiate between the Best Practice mode and the
Base Development mode is the message that occupies the bar below the
menu bar that states that “All customization done in the Base
Development mode might be lost during upgrade.” If you see that
message which occupies a visible and significant area, you are in a
mode that is not recommended. Switch out.
Joe
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Jason Miller
*Sent:* Monday, April 27, 2015 4:24 PM
*To:*[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: How to - Remove all Overlays from a Form
**
"especially if your users are point-blank telling you it matters"
I think that is what I find the most humours (in a not so funny way).
Here are numerous users relaying our experience, thoughts and feelings
here and are told it is fine as is. For a BMC engineer, yes maybe.
Real-world people using the tool, not so much.
Any one of us that builds home-grown apps or customizations (extends)
ITSM has come up with a great solution in the past; something that
makes complete sense to us. But then roll it out and the users don't
seem to see it the same way we do.
This is one of those situations. The designers/developers of a tool do
not see the tool the same way as users, they just don't.
Developer/designers are in too deep and have too
much understanding of beneath the covers. With that level of knowledge
of a tool, yes it makes sense. But your users don't and will likely
never lave that level of knowledge about the tool.
I like your description "litany of little terrors." Have you ever
noticed IT people/developers so damn gunshy to give a response. They
have been beat too many times and live in terror. Give the wrong
answer and you will be beat. After a decade or two (probably much
less) it really does change a person.
Jason
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Andrew Hicox <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
**
Yes indeed!
Holy moley, having to click delete on a core form on production server
during a maintenance window, with absolutely zero indication in the
GUI that you are not, in fact, deleting and/or fouling the form ...
especially if the GUI behaves as if that is exactly what you have just
done ... right down to pausing and going unresponsove for a very long
time ... while simultaneously knowing that your ability to continue
supporting your family may well be on the line ... and especially if
you have lived through legitimately making that mistake in the past (I
have, it wasn't pleasent) ... look ...
It borders on psychological abuse, and I'm really not joking about that.
Poorly designed industrial tools injure their users all the time.
since the injuries are physical, they are hard to ignore, hence there
are regulatory agencies like OSHA, etc.
There is no such thing to protect IT workers, but I am of the opinion
that the litany of little terrors that exist in our world like this,
do take a toll after the decades we spend enduring them.
Bottom line: be considerate to your users. Everything matters,
especially if your users are point-blank telling you it matters.
-Andy
On Apr 27, 2015 12:57 PM, "Jason Miller" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
**
Thanks Lisa!
I understand the logic the BMC dev team is using however now that
people have some real-world experience working overlays there are
enough people pointing out their discomfort in the verbiage "delete"
meaning delete overlay and delete base. As Lisa pointed out there are
times where we work in base mode and if for whatever reason we forget
we are in base (I am sure I am not the only person that gets
distracted mid-development and have to remember where I left off) and
delete something, then we may have just ruined our whole day, week or
even maybe our employment situation (if we were in production).
If the logic is that a customer should never be in base mode then why
can we switch to base mode? Because there are valid use cases for
being in base mode. Therefore there is a valid use case for having
different verbiage.
I was at BMC's office last month and talking with some of the ITSM
developers they pointed out they have to opposite problem we have with
overlays. Their normal day is to work in base mode. If they start to
develop a feature, patch, enhancement and don't realize they are in
best practice they have to go back into base and rebuild their changes
in base (ok, ultimately I wouldn't be surprised if they have some kind
of merge tool). If the delete verbiage was different between base and
best practice it would be one more visual indicator of "oh crap, I am
in the wrong mode."
Jason
On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Kemes, Lisa A DLA CTR INFORMATION
OPERATIONS <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Created new idea if you would like to vote for it:
https://communities.bmc.com/ideas/10022
Thanks everyone!
Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of
Harsh
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 10:46 AM
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: How to - Remove all Overlays from a Form
**
Yes William,
Sometime it really do paranormal activity like forms overlay from
backend doesn't get deleted and makes the form corrupted then really
it's such a pain to delete the overlay references from database to
restore the base form. Even backup doesn't works in that case.
Regards,
Harsh
On Mon 27 Apr, 2015 8:06 pm William Rentfrow
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
That's a good nomination for a product upgrade. In BP mode
the delete really should be "Delete all overlays".
You should put that in the communities - I'd upvote it. Even
though I know it's only going to delete the overlays I REALLY dislike
clicking the delete. I normally make a backup first just due to
paranoia/experience (pick one :)
William Rentfrow
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Office: 715-204-3061 <tel:715-204-3061> or 701-232-5697x25
<tel:701-232-5697x25>
Cell: 715-498-5056 <tel:715-498-5056>
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of
Kemes, Lisa A DLA CTR INFORMATION OPERATIONS
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 9:23 AM
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: How to - Remove all Overlays from a Form
Then when in Best Practice, can the Delete be called Delete
Overlay? That seems so easy to do and assures us that we would be
deleting the overlay and not the form. Sometimes I'm in Base and mean
to be in Best Practice (doing research or something).
Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of
Hullule, Kiran
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 6:22 AM
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: How to - Remove all Overlays from a Form
**
Update: I did talk to product development team in this
regards, developers mentioned that , whatever we do within Best
Practice Customization Mode is all overlay, so whatever the options
you see, add/delete/create etc . they are only applicable to the
overlay objects.. if the object/s is/are non-overlay then you won’t
see delete option unless you are in Base mode. This being the reason
there is no need to label the options explicitly for overlay as a
person who is dealing with developer studio know what he/she is doing
and what is the significance of each mode.
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of
Jason Miller
Sent: 23 April 2015 20:30
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: How to - Remove all Overlays from a Form
**
That would be great!
I am glad to see I am not alone in thinking there should be
difference verbiage. I mentioned it in either the 7.6.03 (before it
was pulled from that version) or 7.6.04 beta; before this features was
GA but it went forward as is.
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 6:37 AM, Kemes, Lisa A DLA CTR
INFORMATION OPERATIONS <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Wow thanks Kiran! That would be great!
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of
Hullule, Kiran
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2015 4:34 AM
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: How to - Remove all Overlays from a Form
I am providing this feedback to our development team
to see if this enhancement can be incorporated in developer studio.
I will update you all.
Regards
Kiran
BMC Software
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of
Kemes, Lisa A DLA CTR INFORMATION OPERATIONS
Sent: 22 April 2015 22:05
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: How to - Remove all Overlays from a Form
It looks like "Delete" with no "overlay" label.
It's really scary when I delete an overlay using this,
because I'm always scared that I'm going to be deleting the form. But
if it's overlaid, then you will only be deleting the overlay of the form.
Lisa
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of
San Diego
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 11:41 AM
To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: How to - Remove all Overlays from a Form
**
Sorry, while creating overlay is in the form menu,
delete form overlay is NOT, else I would not have posted. Thanks, though.
On Apr 22, 2015 10:38 AM, "Hullule, Kiran"
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
create and delete view overlay option can be
found under Form menu -- deleting the view will only delete the
overlay of the view.
hth
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion
list(ARSList) [mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of Tim Genworth
Sent: 22 April 2015 20:25
To: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: How to - Remove all Overlays from a Form
How do I remove all view and permission
overlays from a form? I'm in Dev Studio and don't see a command or
function for doing so. I could manually remove permissions, but the
view overlay appears to be permanent???
TIA
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