2017-12-26 13:52 GMT-05:00 Shardul Chiplunkar <[email protected]>
:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Thanks for the clarification.
>
> > without the subcategory tags referring to the gender and number of the
> possessor
> That would mean the possessor information is lost, creating issues for
> translating to and from other languages where that information is also
> present. For example, Hindi also marks number of both the possessor and
> possessed.
>
> > why these aren't being called pronouns
> Quoting from the Universal Dependencies page (
> http://universaldependencies.org/u/pos/PRON.html):
>
> > "Pronouns under this definition function like nouns. Note that some
> languages traditionally extend the term *pronoun* to words that
> substitute for adjectives. Such words are not tagged PRON under our
> universal scheme. They are tagged as determiners in order to annotate the
> same thing the same way across languages. It is not always crystal clear
> where pronouns end and determiners start. ... The words can be
> pre-classified in the dictionary as either PRON or DET, based on their
> *typical* syntactic distribution (and morphology, when applicable)."
>
> The typical use of 'tyacha' in Marathi is preceding a noun, making it like
> an adjective, hence we are calling it a determiner.
>
But couldn't any noun occur with cha and precede another noun?
We take the same UD guidelines into consideration when we consider Turkic
determiners and pronouns, which do indeed blend into each other, but are
usually distinguishable. For example, when you have "tya mulache pustak"
("that boy's book"?), this looks like the same oblique stem that the
pronoun form "tyacha" has, but here is definitely behaving like a
determiner and not like a pronoun.'
--
Jonathan
> Using 'tyacha' on its own as a pronoun is relatively uncommon.
>
> According to this discussion, I think we should go with option 1 in my
> first email. The complete analysis would be:
> tyacha: ^to<det><dist><m><sg><obl>+ch<gen><m><sg>
>
> (The <obl> tag is because 'tya' can be followed by any postposition, and
> there is also a distinct nominative form of the determiner.)
>
> Again, thanks to everyone for the clarification. And happy holidays!
>
>
> Shardul C.
>
> On Tue, Dec 26, 2017 at 8:16 AM, Jonathan Washington <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> So the standard is to to treat the different possessor bases as separate
>> lemmas, without the subcategory tags referring to the gender and number of
>> the possessor, and instead only the grammatical (agreement) number and
>> gender tags?
>>
>> tyacha/tya<det><p3><dist><gen><m><sg>
>>
>> Something like that? (My understanding is that personal and
>> demonstrative determiners and pronouns aren't distinguished, but proximal
>> and distal are for the 3rd person ones—hence the subcategory tags I used.)
>>
>> By the way, I'm still confused why these aren't being called pronouns.
>> It was late last night here when we were discussing it on IRC, so I
>> probably missed something...
>>
>> Happy holidays all :)
>>
>> --
>> Jonathan
>>
>>
>> On Dec 26, 2017 10:44, "Vinit Ravishankar" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> The current UD Mar standard is indeed to treat the two as separate
>> lemmas, or at least split tokens, so I would go with whatever is the most
>> similar to that.
>>
>> Sorry I'm not on IRC, bit busy over xmas. Cheers!
>>
>> — V
>>
>> On 26 Dec 2017 9:58 am, "Shardul Chiplunkar" <
>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> This is an issue which was briefly discussed on IRC on 2017-12-26, and
>>> Jonathan advised me to post about it here. It is about possessive
>>> determiners in Marathi.
>>>
>>> Minimal examples:
>>> 1. "tyacha ghoda" = "his horse" (horse is masculine)
>>> 2. "ticha ghoda" = "her horse"
>>> 3. "tyachi gay" = "his cow" (cow is feminine)
>>> 4. "tichi gay" = "her cow"
>>>
>>> What these examples show is that the possessive determiners are
>>> inflected according to the gender of both the possessor and the possessed.
>>> This is also true for the number of both in Marathi. (There are three
>>> genders and two numbers.)
>>>
>>> Previously, 'tyacha' was being analyzed with the tags
>>> <m><sg><gen><m><sg>, which is an issue for structural transfer. We
>>> discussed two alternatives:
>>> 1. having XYZ<m><sg>+ch<gen><m><sg>, that is, treating the 'ch' forms
>>> as separate lemmas
>>> 2. having XYZ<pm><psg><gen><am><asg>, that is, making separate tags for
>>> the possessor and the possessed
>>>
>>> What is the best way to proceed, with these options or maybe something
>>> else?
>>>
>>> Shardul C.
>>>
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