Le 24/09/2014 16:41, Jason Ekstrand a écrit :
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 1:46 AM, Matthieu Gautier <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Hi Jason,
Well, I'll try to be more concise.
In fact, there are two unrelated parts in my proposition :
# First part : getting relative events
Passing through a wl_pointer that may not exists to get relative
events seems a bit odd to me.
My main idea is to have a new object (I've call wl_relative) *not
related* to wl_pointer that send to client the relative events.
If a client want relative events, it open this object and receive
events from it. Simply.
No need to look the wl_pointer or anything else.
The wl_pointer still continue to work as usual. There is strictly
no change in that part.
The only relation we may find between wl_relative and wl_pointer
is that relative events are sent only when the wl_surface as the
focus.
In a first approximation, we can say that the wl_relative focus is
the same of wl_pointer focus and that relative events are send
only when wl_pointer.motion are send (ie, between wl_pointer.enter
and wl_pointer.leave)
But a special compositor could follow its own rules.
What is a relative input device? How does the client know if/how it's
related to the wl_pointer?
The first question is the hard one. A pointer is a relatively
well-dfined thing. We've had mice for ~30 years now and everyone
knows what to expect from one. They give you motion (sort-of
relative), they have buttons (at least one, but usually at least 3),
they frequently have at least one axis of relative motion that we call
"scroll". A mouse is a well-defined input device and we know what to
do with one. We also know that, classically, they move this little
cursor around on the screen in a way that's defined by the window
system and is usually in absolute coordinates as far as applications
are concerned.
What is a relative input device? It gives relative motion. How many
axes does it have? How should each axis be interpreted by
applications? What kind of pseudo-physical model should we use to
understand it. (a mouse cursor "moves" on the screen). Does it have
buttons? How many? What do they do? In order for the protocol to be
useful for applications, all of those questions need well-defined
answers. If it's just "gives relative events" then we're right back
to the horrific "remap your joystick for every game" problem we had in
the '90s only now you have to remap your mouse too. In fact, one of
the things about mice that's great for game devs is precisely that
they always know what they're getting.
Along those lines, there was a protocol proposed for gamepads some
time ago. (you could go dig it up on the list and read about it).
The basic idea there was that most gamepad designs have more-or-less
coalesced into the XBox/PS form-factor of two sticks, a d-pad, 4
buttons, 2 or 4 triggers, and a "start" buton. You can go online and
find dozens of different companies shipping gamepads that all have
this same basic layout. The idea was to then create a protocol based
on that layout so that game developers could have a common base to
build on. The reason I bring this up is that the entire reason why
the protocol was feasible at all is that the concept of a gamepad has
become reasonably well-defined to the point where you could write a
common protocol that works for most combinations of game and gamepad.
I have to agree with you. Trying to write the xml corresponding to my
idea point out this problem.
Not cause of the definition of the wl_relative (I planned to just have
motion events) but cause without buttons wl_relative is mostly useless
without wl_pointer.
And it doesn't fulfill the constraint for system with a relative device
but without a pointer interpretation of this device.
However, split the problem in two parts is still relevant for me. We
don't need a lock on the pointer to get the relative movement of the mouse.
Why not just add new arguments to the wl_pointer.motion event and drop
the idea of a wl_relative object ? [*]
Those new arguments (delta_x and delta_y) corresponding to the
untransformed relative movement.
The pointer lock part being unchanged.
If for any reason the user move the mouse and the pointer position
doesn't change (cause of pointer lock or pointer is already on a screen
corner),
a motion event is still generated but with surface_x/surface_y being the
same as the previous ones.
[*] I'm not totally aware of what is the general consensus on how to
extend wayland protocol.
Maybe we try to avoid change in the core protocol and want to make
change through extension. In this case, indeed, we cannot just add
arguments to the motion event.
As a small note, a classic mouse isn't really relative because the
position on screen sort-of corresponds to the position on the mouse
pad. Sure, it's sloppy and subject to acceleration, but it's not
truly relative like a trackball. Not that this really matters, but
it's worth pointing out.
I'm still thinking that tho pointer stuff is artificial construction
based on relative events. This construction is of course extremely
useful and well integrated by user.
One can imagine a UI without pointer and with relative motion (FPS game
is a example, they use relative events but don't have a notion of pointer)
But, I think this point is no more relevant in this discussion. Having
wayland supports this kind of future potential interface would probably
need to many change for a usage that may not worth it.
# Second part : pointer lock
The pointer lock should not be related to relative events. This is
two different parts.
To acquire a pointer lock, a client just ask it.
It can be by the request wl_pointer.get_lock(lock_type) (I've
called it set_mode in my past mail but get_lock is a better name)
This request return a wl_callback used by the compositor to end
the lock (either cause it refuse it or the lock normally ends)
The lock can be released by the client using
wl_pointer.release_lock() (former reset_mode)
The lock_type can be :
- lock : Do not move the pointer (What was in the Jonas' proposal)
- confine : Confine the pointer into the surface.
During a lock, all events are still send as usual :
- Relative events from wl_relative are not impacted by the
wl_pointer lock
- wl_pointer.motion are still send in confine mode
- wl_pointer button, axis events are still sent
# Remarks and QA:
The main difference compared to Jonas' proposal is that I totally
separate the relative events problem from the pointer lock
problem. (I maybe should have start by this :) )
In Jonas' proposal you have to acquire the pointer lock to get
relative events. In my proposition we can get one without having
the other.
I don't especially care if this is my proposal or Jonas' ones that
is kept. But separate the two part in unrelated problems seems
better to me.
I've you give me times, I will send you a patch of wayland.xml to
describe more precisely what I'm thinking about.
It could be interesting that Jonas update its protocol xml with
remarks from others to be sure that we compare up to date proposal
and not miss anything.
- Why not let the application open the device ?
=> For security reasons. We probably don't want that any
applications can open input devices and read from them all events.
=> Scalability. Devices are not always mouses. Applications may
not know how to read them.
In my past job, I've made a android
application that connect to the STB in Wifi and discuss directly
with the compositor to send input events. There was no device to
read from except a socket.
- What my proposal can do that Jonas' one can't do ?
=> The only thing I can find is the case where a seat doesn't
have a wl_pointer but have relative events. For all the rest,
Jonas' proposal seems to work.
=> My proposition seems simpler to me. Less dependencies between
elements, less questions about who create and release objects.
(But It's maybe also cause it's mine :) )
Regards,
Matthieu.
Le 23/09/2014 23:42, Jason Ekstrand a écrit :
Hi Matthieu,
Could you please provide more explanation on what use-cases you
are considering and why the current proposal fails to accomplish
them? All I was able to get from your post was the example of a
TV remote. It's all well and good to completely disagree with
the proposed approach, but without a good reason as to why it
doesn't work, it's kind of moot.
It's also worth noting the scope of the proposal. The primary
objective here is to provide a mechanism to take a device that
could be providing relative events but which the compositor has
turned into a pointer and get the relative events out of it. It's
not intended to be a generic system for getting relative events.
On that note, if you want to get a generic relative motion
events, can't you just open the device and read them? Sure we
could cobble together a specification for how to read a bunch of
buttons and relative events and then create a cursor from them.
I'm pretty sure it exists in the form of the USB HID spec. How
does reimplementing that in Wayland help us? There was, at one
point, a proposal for gamepads, but nothing has happened there in
a while.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Matthieu Gautier
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Hello,
I'm pretty new into wayland and the discussion is relatively
long, so I may have missed arguments/constraints.
However I would like to share my point of view.
It seems to me that we are taking the problem the wrong way.
Relative motions exist as soon as there is a device
generating them. wl_pointer is just a particular
interpretation of those events.
In fact, we may have a system where we have relative motion
events but no wl_pointer. Think about a smart tv with a
remote control with accelerator/gyroscope detectors.
This remote may behave as a mouse, generating relative motion
events. But the main interface of the TV may have no pointer.
The interface should been a set of icons and user move
between them with the remote buttons.
If you're just pressing buttons to move between icons, then
"pointer" is probably the wrong way to look at it anyway. It's
more "arrow keys" than a pointer.
Exactly, there is no pointer in this example. But there are
relative events applications may want to have.
In the same way, we may want that special applications still
have access to motion events:
- A web browser that will display itself the pointer (or
activate wl_pointer in the compositor)
- A video game
- Any application that want make gesture recognition.
In this context, wl_pointer is a special use-case of a shell
and having a mouse device doesn't imply having a pointer.
Relative motions should be always available (if there is a
device) and wl_pointer should be created on top of relative
motions.
Trying to reduce the wl_pointer behavior to have the raw
events seems to me the contrary of what we have to do.
What I propose is :
- Having a way to get "relative input object" (lets call it
wl_relative for now) from wl_seat.
- Having a way to get a wl_pointer from the wl_seat at it is
already the case.
Relative events a sent to client if it is active (It is to
the compositor to decide this, as usual) whatever there is a
wl_pointer or not.
The pointer lock interface will become some kind of
"deactivate/configure wl_pointer".
# Functionally :
A combination of :
- Hide the cursor (already available with wl_pointer.set_cursor)
- Don't not update wl_pointer position from relative events.
- Confine the pointer position into my wl_surface.
- Set wl_pointer at this position.
- A fps game will hide the cursor and deactivate update of
wl_pointer position.
- A strategy game will just confine the pointer.
- A application with a 3D view that what to rotate it when
user drag the mouse will just deactivate update of pointer
position between button_down and button_up.
- A application that just want relative motion events do nothing.
At any time, relative motion events are sent to client
through the wl_relative object. Regardless of the state of
wl_pointer.
It is up to the client to handle events from wl_pointer or
wl_relative depending of which kind of information it wants.
# Interface :
The wl_pointer could gain two (four?) more requests :
- set_mode(mode, callback)
- reset_mode()
( - has_mode
- get_mode )
The default mode is the mode we have for now (no special
constraints)
A client can change the mode of a wl_pointer. It gets a callback.
When compositor stops the special mode (or refuse it) the
done event of the callback is sent.
When the client has finished with special mode, it sends the
reset_mode request.
The wl_pointer.leave event may or not be sent to client when
the done event is sent (The pointer may still being inside
the wl_surface when special mode ends)
However a wl_pointer.leave event implies a done event. (We
cannot have a special mode if we don't have the pointer focus)
On the interface to get the wl_relative object from seat, it
depends :
Is there a possibility to have several cursor on one seat ?
One cursor per seat. If there are multiple physical mice, then
you get an aggregate of all the mice. You can, however, have
multiple seats in which case you will get multiple pointers.
(Two mouses moving two cursors)
Does wl_seat.get_cursor return always a proxy to the same
object ?
Yes, all pointers created from the same seat are identical.
- If there is only one cursor, we can simply add a
get_relative request to wl_seat.
- If not, we should get a object from the other.
. Ideally, get the wl_pointer from wl_relative. (and
wl_relative from wl_seat)
. Practically, cause of the existent, get wl_relative from
wl_pointer.
Regards,
Matthieu Gautier.
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