> "They have fundamentally different needs than the average application" Well yes, I'm very aware they are, but when you say "DE-component", I see a huge PITA for the developpers who would want to add such features in the desktop. Now, I wouldn't mind some sort of EWMH-like extensions, however, if a developper has to first focus a DE, make a new extension for it, make it accepted in the DE code-base, and then build its app, it's dead from the beginning. So our last hope would be that a DE really exposes a third-party-friendly interface and that others follow... Ubuntu did with their Launcher API, indicators API, etc, and it didn't spread very much.
I think if Weston implements an interface it will have a chance though, so I'll still try to push some other ideas on this ML ;-) 2014-07-03 9:03 GMT+02:00 Pekka Paalanen <[email protected]>: > On Wed, 2 Jul 2014 16:16:36 -0700 > Jason Gerecke <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 3:33 PM, Fabrice Rey <[email protected]> > wrote: > > >> "The question is: what action triggers it to make this ring of icons > > >> appear?" > > > A global shortkey (and yes I know it's not yet possible on Wayland, > that's > > > another problem on its own). > > > > > >> "What's the application doing? Does it have keyboard focus but is > > >> potentially not under the mouse pointer? Do you have a screenshot or > video > > >> of this feature you can share?" > > > I'm not the developper of it, I actually don't even use it ^^ I was > just > > > thinking of it to see how it would fit in Wayland, what's potentially > > > missing now in the protocol. > > > Here is an article about it: > > > http://www.webupd8.org/2011/10/gnome-pie-02-released.html and a video: > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFQDyZyMxO4. > > > Basically, it appears under the mouse when you trigger the shortkey, > and you > > > can also use the keyboard to navigate in the items. > > > So I see 2 main points here: > > > - it places its window not relatively to a parent (which there is > not), but > > > to the mouse > > > - it takes the (keyboard) focus when it appears > > > The second point is not related to this topic, so we can probably > think of > > > it later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > This reminds me of a something similar[1] that comes with the Wacom > > drivers on Windows and Mac. Its not a normal application that you > > would open, interact with, (possibly switch away from temporarily), > > and close. Rather, the application sits in the background and waits > > for some button/mouse/hotkey to be pressed before spawning a window > > under the mouse that you interact with for only a moment before > > returning to your original task. > > Right, though on a quick glimpse on that video without really > understanding what's going on there, the circular menu seems more like > belonging to the image processing application. > > Fabrice's example OTOH is obviously a DE component, as it is a > launcher, window control, and stuff. > > > I do not mean to put words into Pekka's mouth, but I believe what he > > means when saying that things like this are "a DE-component" he's > > speaking conceptually more than anything else. Alternative menu > > systems like this and desklets essentially exist to augment the > > desktop itself. Just because they can be written in a DE-agnostic > > manner and run on GNOME, KDE, or TWM (all hail xeyes?) doesn't change > > that. They have fundamentally different needs than the average > > application, and -- at least as far as I understand Wayland -- it > > makes sense to leave some of these things up to the desktops to > > define. > > Quite right. Defining a generic protocol (designed from above, a > little like the core Wayland protocol has been done) for adding DE > components like pagers, task bars, launcher systems, window management > thingies, desklets, etc. is so far an explicit non-goal. > > On Wayland, desktop environments are intended to be much more tightly > integrated than on X11. We are not planning to intentionally design > support for custom desktop environment arrangements where you pick the > window manager from here, pager from there, a 3rd party task bar, and > then a few desklets all from different other DEs. Yes, you can say it is > a loss for the people who like to build their own DE from various > pieces (I'm one of them, but mostly just because I can't bother > learning anything else). However, it should be a great win in > freedom of design, stability and usablity for the seriously developed > DEs used by the masses. > > Every DE has its own thing for DE components already. Inventing yet > another way that doesn't really fit well for any DE and forcing > everyone to support that is not a good plan. Some components in some > DEs could be not programs but plugins, some may talk via dbus rather > than the display protocol, and so on. > > Instead, we are trying to allow DEs to define their own interfaces for > these DE components, and if there actually emerges some common > interfaces that could be standardised, then we can look into it. > One hope is, that one DE starts to use a public interface for some DE > components, some other DE finds it good and starts using it too, and so > it slowly becomes a standard. Note, that nothing requires the > standard protocol to be part of the display (Wayland) protocol. > > Unfortunately such organic, cooperative protocol design does not really > work for the core protocol that all applications will depend on, and > that's why we have and are "centrally" designing the Wayland core > protocols and xdg_shell. We cannot really test much without a stable > core protocol, and we cannot be sure the core protocol is good until it > is put into serious use; we also have already been bitten by this > chicken-and-egg problem. > > > Thanks, > pq > > > [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McJMnMJydes > > > > Jason >
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