Le 6 janv. 2014 23:25, "Stephen Connolly" <[email protected]> a écrit : > > On 6 January 2014 22:18, Thomas Broyer <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Le 6 janv. 2014 22:34, "Stephen Connolly" < [email protected] > > > > > a écrit : > > > > > > I don't want a religious war. If Gradle or ANT are a better fit for the > > way > > > some people think about building software... well good for them... and > > the > > > faster we can help them realise that Maven takes a different tack the > > > better. > > > > > > I happen to believe that the power of Maven comes from being model driven > > > rather than procedural, which ultimately allows for a richer IDE > > > experience, but consequently you lose some flexibility in your build > > > process. It is a tradeoff I happen to like the Maven balance of, but I am > > > not so arrogant to presume that Maven's balance suits everyone. > > > > > > The Maven repository has grown beyond just Maven, so that is no longer a > > > key differentiator for Maven. > > > > > > The differentiator is in the declarative build rather than procedural > > > build... > > > > I disagree (when comparing with Gradle). The differentiator to me is going > > beyond the build tool: project management and comprehension tool. Things > > like the m-release-p, m-scm-p, m-site-p, etc. No other tool has those > > AFAICT, and not everybody wants or needs them. > > On the negative side: linear lifecycle, fixed number of classpaths (scopes) > > that forces you to use separate modules (not a problem per se) thus put > > files in separate folder trees (more of an issue, even if it means losing > > IDE support), etc. Many of which contribute to making it really hard to > > migrate from Ant to Maven. > > > > > With Ant you have a mostly pure procedural build. > > > > > > With Maven you have a mostly pure declarative build. > > > > > > With Gradle you have a hodge-podge mix of both. > > > > > > (By declarative, I mean <packaging>jar</packaging> is all I need to > > > declare, maven knows how everything fits into that) > > > > "apply plugin: java" is all you need to declare in Gradle ;-) > > > > (OK, you also need a couple other lines to deploy to a Maven or Ivy repo, > > but no more than in a POM) > > > > *but* if you see a maven build, you know it pretty much has to be > declarative... > > if you see a gradle build it can add a whole procedural set of steps quite > trivially on top..
Ack. > (you can also add procedural stuff to maven, but it is hard and ugly > because of the syntax and the way maven forces you to work) > > Basically I view the main "advantage" of gradle as it's main > "disadvantage"... others are free to invert that point of view if/as they > see fit, but I have yet to see the benefits of the flexibility that gradle > adds... I have only seen downsides... I'll not go ramming my PoV down your > mouth... as long as you don't try and ram your PoV down mine ;-) I respect your PoV ;-) > > > > > So let's let others go to the tools that suit their tastes, and the > > faster > > > that we help them there, the less bitching about how "Maven is crap > > > (because it doesn't suit my taste)" we will hear. > > > > > > It's like marmite: you either love it or hate it! > > > > > > > > > On 6 January 2014 20:08, Russell Gold <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Several sentences sounds good. But here’s another question. Comparing > > > > Maven to ant is almost too easy in terms of advantages. Is gradle now a > > > > serious competitor (I had been working on converting an enormous > > project to > > > > maven, but the architect decided to switch to gradle, so I am > > particularly > > > > sensitive to the issue). I can see some superficial advantages of > > gradle > > > > that might appeal to some projects. Is it better to ignore or address > > this? > > > > > > > > On Jan 6, 2014, at 3:02 PM, Stephen Connolly < > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Monday, 6 January 2014, Ron Wheeler wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> I think that the target has to be people deciding whether to try > > Maven. > > > > >> They initially want to know what it does and why it is better than > > Ant > > > > or > > > > >> whatever they are using now. > > > > >> > > > > >> Trying to teach Maven in a single sentence is too much to ask. > > > > >> > > > > >> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts managed > > in > > > > a > > > > >> repository." doesn't sound like it will help build my application. > > > > >> At the start, one doesn't have any artifacts or own a repository. > > > > >> > > > > >> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which > > has > > > > >> great dependency management features." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we should hint at the descriptive philosophy rather than the > > > > > procedural philosophy most tools take > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> is pretty clear for a single sentence description and it true. > > > > >> Maybe we can come up with a follow-up sentence to amplify/explain > > this > > > > one. > > > > >> Most programmers or project managers should be able to find the time > > to > > > > >> read 2 or maybe 3 sentences before deciding on a build tool. > > > > >> As long as each sentence draws the person deeper into Maven, that > > would > > > > >> work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes that is the idea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> Ron > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On 06/01/2014 12:57 PM, Russell Gold wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> Of course, you could say that about Gradle, too. And ant now does > > have > > > > >>> the ability to use those dependency features. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> I went through this when creating my video course (not in the sig > > > > because > > > > >>> this is work email). It’s not clear to me that you can make a one > > > > sentence > > > > >>> description that will provide sufficiently useful information > > unless > > > > >>> something like: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> "Maven is a build tool which consumes and produces artifacts > > managed > > > > in a > > > > >>> repository." > > > > >>> > > > > >>> But that is not going to help people coming new to the project. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> I think I am missing the motivation here.Is the target for this > > > > >>> description people deciding whether to try Maven? People trying to > > > > learn > > > > >>> how to use it? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On Jan 6, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Lyons, Roy <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>> on > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MAVEN/New+Main+Siteit > > > > >>>> says: > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> We need a short and snappy description of what Maven is: > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> "Apache Maven is a software project management and comprehension > > > > tool." > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Is just not an easy to understand description of what Maven is. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> I would like to submit my short description for review. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> "Apache Maven is a convention-over-configuration build tool which > > has > > > > >>>> great dependency management features." > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> I know that it does more than that - but I feel that at its core, > > this > > > > >>>> is what it really is. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > >> -- > > > > >> Ron Wheeler > > > > >> President > > > > >> Artifact Software Inc > > > > >> email: [email protected] > > > > >> skype: ronaldmwheeler > > > > >> phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102 > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Sent from my phone > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > >
