Hehe. Wow. That guy who gathered that data is the Maven founder. It IS his job to get a pulse of how Maven users feel about it.
For a guy that claims to have so much experience, you sure don't do your homework. > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenneth McDonald [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 4:50 PM > To: Maven Users List > Subject: Re: maven is a swamp > > Well, just to make it concrete, I am not a troll. I've been doing dev for > 20+ years, have lots of > experience with large projects, etc. etc. If I have to drop names, I was > associated with one of > the two main sites of the Human Genome Project. > > I still don't get the complacency at the XML swamp. How is > <genericTagName>false</genericTagName> > > possibly better than > > <genericTagName>false</> > > which would in turn be better than: > > genericTagName = "false" > > XML is a swamp of undertulized, overused redundancy. Period. > > In response to the person who'd interrogated 2K+ people to see if they > thought > XML was overrdone; Wow, that's really impressive! Where did you find the > time > to ask all those people and still get your your job done? Whereas, if I > ask the five > people who I know well, and who have to use these tools, the answer is, > "what > a bunch of garbage". They HATE XML. > > Still not convinced? What about the simple fact of that that languages > before, and the > languages _since_ have not been written in a dialect of XML. If XML were > such a great > solution, surely it would have cleared here by now. > > But of course it hasn't. The reasons is because it's a CRAPPY SOLUTION. > Period. No Line breaks. > Unless one is writing for ultimate display in the web, XML SUCKS > > In all the best to have all the people who have responded to this, > I don't see how you can continue maintain your position, > Yours, > Ken > On Oct 15, 2010, at 8:27 AM, Yanko, Curtis wrote: > > > +1 > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Curt Yanko | Continuous Integration Services | UnitedHealth Group IT > > Making IT Happen, one build at a time > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Brian Smith [mailto:[email protected]] > > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 5:39 AM > > To: Maven Users List > > Subject: Re: maven is a swamp > > > > I really fail at understanding the XML rage. Yeah it's verbose. How's > > that a problem? We've had tools with auto complete, auto format and > > syntax highlighting for well over a decade, we also now have fairly > > robust GUIs too. If you're hand editing a 2000 line xml file in a > green > > screen terminal you're doing the equivalent of using an abacus and I'm > > afraid you're not the user new tools ought to be aimed at. > > > > XML has a huge ubiquity value. It might not be the *best* tool for the > > job for each individual user but it's the only one that is widely > enough > > understood to not put an additional learning burden on the user. When > I > > learned Maven I had to grok concepts like dependencyManagement and > > plugins and phases. I didn't have to learn XML, I already knew it. If > > Maven POMs were written in Python or A.N.Other language/markup I'd have > > to learn that too. There are many useful libraries that make it easier > > to produce GUI tools on top of XML that don't exist for alternatives, > so > > we'd have less tooling for POMs. Tooling and minimising the learning > > required are good things. > > > > The _actual_ problem I see is the lack of "best practise" use for > > plugins off the beaten track. The documentation is usually fairly good > > at telling you how to make a plugin do something, it's less than > > brilliant at recommending best practises and unless it's one of the > > mainstream ones covered by the sonatype book it's hard to find. I've > > found the best thing to do in those cases is go look at large, open > > source projects and see how they do it. Ken's original problem in this > > thread (and the others he's been getting help with on the scala list) > > are _nothing_ to do with XML, that is just the target of frustration. > > They would have happened regardless of the language for POM > > specification. > > > > For us, Maven's killed about 12,000 lines of ant legacy built up over a > > few years, and also done a drive by on a couple of dozen ivy files, > > replacing them with one medium size POM declaring dependency versions, > a > > dozen small ones declaring dependencies, and a bunch of minimal ones - > > all with NO bespoke build instructions in. Using nexus has killed the > > need to maintain an internal ivy repository which was a real pain in > the > > rear, and we can now easily share deliverables with the other couple of > > hundred developers we have working in the same technologies around the > > globe. It's been very painless by comparison to what we were doing > > before and well worth the switchover. > > > > Regards > > > > Brian > > > > On 15 October 2010 08:56, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 3:00 am, Jason van Zyl wrote: > >>>> A fact to note though is that I've asked over 2k people over the > >> last two years at talks and in any average crowd the people who care > >> to have a different format or DSL is around 3%. > >> > >> And I one of them :-) I always havent been a friend of XML and I happy > > > >> to see the possibilities maven3 offers (although I prefer using gradle > > > >> - > >> bygones) > >> > >> What I'm wondering most is - why the heck do you write to the maven > >> mailinglist how you dislike maven ? Is your intention to convince > >> people that they are doing bad stuff over the last xxx years ? Is it > >> just pure boredness ? > >> > >> I dont like Ruby or Clojure - what is the reason to bother the > >> ruby/clojure mailing list that their syntax is apparently horrible ? > >> > >> Sorry - I dont get it... If you dont like maven - dont use it... there > > > >> are tons of alternatives around. > >> > >> Or what point do I miss here ? > >> > >> > >> > > > > This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or > > proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity > > to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the > intended > > recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified > > that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is > > prohibited. 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