I've been an Ubuntu Studio user for a long time and had no clue things were so dire, although I was aware of the burnout problem in OS projects in general. It sounds like a new - development path? - would be worth considering even if all roles were filled. I'm so new to all of this I don't even understand why vanilla Ubuntu wouldn't support pro audio out of the box by now. Wouldn't that be the simplest solution? Is the fork too big of a departure to merge back or otherwise combine efforts? I have never hacked an operating system, and can't imagine getting involved in such a big project in my spare time, which ironically, I like to use to create things...using Ubuntu Studio. I am guessing a fair number of people dedicating hours to this have paid a big opportunity cost not creating artwork so they could help other users. I finally got around to making a modest contribution through documentation, but that pales in comparison to all the great effort that has gone into this project (features, bug fixes, security patches). So, a heartfelt thank you and may the best aspects of Ubuntu Studio carry forth in some way, shape, or form.
Pete On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 8:35 AM < [email protected]> wrote: > Send ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of ubuntu-studio-devel digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Some thoughts, frustrations, and considerations. (Len Ovens) > 2. Re: Some thoughts, frustrations, and considerations. > (Thomas Pfundt) > 3. Re: Some thoughts, frustrations, and considerations. > (Hank Stanglow) > 4. Re: Some thoughts, frustrations, and considerations. > (Ralf Mardorf) > 5. Re: Some thoughts, (Off Topic) (Hank Stanglow) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 14:37:37 -0700 (PDT) > From: Len Ovens <[email protected]> > To: Ubuntu Studio Development <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Some thoughts, frustrations, and > considerations. > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Sun, 23 Sep 2018, ttoine wrote: > > > involved (MOTU and other people like that for Ubuntu). More, in some > open source > > projects, only committers can vote on strategic decisions, and it's bad > when they > > ignore theirs users or don't understand a specific emerging use of their > project. > > That's why many open source project have bad UI/UX, and often, bad > communication. > > I can't remember how much time someone answered to me in IRC "learn how > to code > > and do it"... > > Yes and no. As an Ardour dev, I have added a lot of stuff that is not > useful to me. On the other hand, there are users or just people who like > to comment, that have ideas that really don't make sense or that would be > bad for the project or really can't be done without rewriting the whole > project. When one of these people is insistant that their pet want gets > added and won't leave you alone. There is a point of "no I won't add that, > build a copy and add it yourself". even as someone who commits to Ardour > frequently I still don't have a lot fo vote in it's direction ;) > > > Engineers and technicians don't care that much about their operating > system look > > and feel: they have the head in their applications. They are just > looking for a > > very stable operating system and good devices drivers. Providing a slick > dark > > theme and some nice backgrounds, a setup assistant, and too much > pre-installed > > applications is not anymore what people want. The current need is a > lightweight, > > clean install, and then they just add the few applications they use in > their > > workflow. This is where AVLinux, KXStudio, or even a vanilla Ubuntu with > a few > > modifications (my current choice) are good enough for those who can > follow a > > howto :-) > > While vanilla is much better than it was... well, it's not my favourite > still. However, point taken. > > > By the way, let's speak a bit about the beginnings of the Ubuntu Studio > journey. > > At the origin (I was there...) Ubuntu Studio was a wiki page for vanilla > Ubuntu, > > I came along well after that. (there was a text based installed when I > showed up) > > > Regarding the project name, sometimes, I have the feeling that the name > "Ubuntu > > Studio" was a good idea and a bad idea at the same time. In the past, it > gave a > > I remember, but I honestly don't remember how I felt at the time. Working > with Ubuntu has not been easy. releases are based on other things than > audio and as such we have ended up with releases just before major audio > app releases or just before a significant bug fix (jackd comes to > mind). This has made Studio instantly out of date. Running a PPA with just > metas, an install applet and updates would allow keeping up with such > thing much easier. > > So why not use kx ppa? Some his utilities (cadence) make trouble shooting > very hard on IRC or email. (controls current state is because of that) > > > I stepped down from the project after Ubuntu 10.04 for two reasons: I > became a > > father (and it means less time available), and I disagreed with the > direction of > > the project at the time (particularly, the will to add as much packages > as > > possible and focus energy on changing the desktop environment, instead of > > improving drivers and overall stability). > > That has (or had) changed. Many packages were removed and the installer > had a module added that allowed choosing which apps to actually install. > So it was possible to have an audio only (no graphics/video apps) and not > include non-used apps even in audio. > > > In my humble opinion, an active website, with a dedicated forum, with > section > > like "Audio", "Video", or "3D", welcoming any users of any Debian/Ubuntu > > derivative, would have been a key to create an active community. But > because of > > There are linux audio users email lists and formums and they are not doing > so well these days either. The linux audio website is suffering from the > same dev/maintainer burnout. > > > There is something we must not forget: nowadays it has never been so > easy to > > install a Debian based Linux distribution like Ubuntu, and then > add/change a few > > things to use it as a very good audio or video workstation. Most people > actually > > There some good parts to this too. Having people asking for help about OS > related things would automatically go to the flavour they installed rather > than our almost empty IRC channel. > > > Whatever is the decision of the current team, to continue or to stop the > project, > > be sure there is no bad decision. Projects start, live, and die. Even if > you > > would choose to stop Ubuntu Studio, parts of it will be used each time > someone > > record music with a Debian based Linux distribution. This is a big > legacy :-) > > I think I will distribute ubuntustudio-controls under another name as > well. Just to keep it alive if all else fails... and to make it more > usable to those who are not using ubuntu. > > -- > Len Ovens > www.ovenwerks.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 22:24:50 +0000 > From: Thomas Pfundt <[email protected]> > To: Ubuntu Studio Development <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Some thoughts, frustrations, and > considerations. > Message-ID: > > <DQ7pcnZ5p3gBe6o7MTACBnB0ZAfGwUtwD9iH6eMqCmPqLar4ZJKAqo7_iJt5E4BuDrwBaa1IZCUQPcYC8GACaZik--I6951qrirvAcP1WQQ=@ > protonmail.ch> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Hi Erich and everyone else reading, > > -‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ > On Friday, September 21, 2018 5:55 PM, Erich Eickmeyer wrote: > > My proposal is to keep Ubuntu Studio's ISO as Xfce, but to develop > > metapackages that bolt Ubuntu Studio on to an existing install of > > another flavor. > > I'm going to get right to the point - without probably fully understanding > all the implications of such a decision, I think this is a great idea and > have thought so since it first came up in one of the meetings. > > Besides of what Erich already mentioned, I mainly see the advantage of > offering users a simple way to turn their running installation into a > media-creation system without having to go through the hassle of completely > wiping and reinstalling a different derivative. > > As far as I understand, it could even allow for using an Ubuntu Vanilla > installation, turning it into a pseudo Ubuntu Studio system and getting up > to five years of security patches, which might be useful for largely > unadministered set-and-forget systems in institutions and such. > > >From a user-experience perspective, I suppose it's a lucrative selling > point to offer those features without forcing a specific DE. That way, > every user could choose one that fits their needs best. I know that Len had > some specific criteria for why he chose Plasma as the alternative DE, but I > had the "joy" of being forced to work with the new Kubuntu for a couple of > weeks on the side and it's just not my personal favourite, but that of > course doesn't mean that it's not perfectly suited for some other peoples' > workflows. > > After our last meeting, I had a very brief talk with Eylul and would be > willing to take over at least her PR-related duties, since I've done this > before and would consider myself competent enough, if it helps keeping > everyones' backs free on that part. Unfortunately though, also working two > jobs at the moment, I don't feel comfortable making any promises of taking > on the more technical tasks that are so essential to the project right now, > probably only hurting progress by doing so. > > Maybe taking one step back and rethinking the direction of the project is > a good idea. There's no point in chasing something that can't be reached at > the moment when that time and energy can be spent making something else > reachable. Anyway, I'll be here for any considerations. > > > Best regards, > Thomas > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 16:09:33 -0700 > From: Hank Stanglow <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Some thoughts, frustrations, and > considerations. > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Hi. I have been following Ubuntu Studio since 2011 and it holds a > special place in my heart. I am sad to see development slow down, but I > also feel like changes in the way software is packaged and distributed > made this inevitable. > > I stopped using Ubuntu Studio a couple years ago for a few reasons: > there were some annoying bugs in XFCE/Thunar, I wanted more recent > packages, and I wanted a better experience using non-gtk tools. > > I do multimedia work and that's why I chose Ubuntu Studio. Having a good > audio setup was important, but I also needed drawing and video tools as > well. IMO, the best and most available FOSS tools for drawing and video > are Krita and KdenLive, which were always buggy on gtk-based systems. > However, with growing emphasis on Snaps and Flatpacks, software is > becoming both distribution and desktop environment agnostic. These days > a Linux user can get the best of everything regardless of their > distribution of choice. And that, I think, makes me wonder if I will > ever need Ubuntu Studio again. Even if Ubuntu Studio had a vibrant team > to keep up this distribution the question "is it needed?" would still > persist. Honestly, I don't even use KX Studio for audio anymore, so this > is not a problem specific to Ubuntu Studio. > > Everyone should feel great about the role Ubuntu Studio played in moving > GNU/Linux/FOSS forward. Linux and Ubuntu are better than ever for > multimedia artists like myself. > > Thanks for everything! > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 04:45:32 +0200 > From: Ralf Mardorf <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Some thoughts, frustrations, and > considerations. > Message-ID: <20180924044532.69db20b1@archlinux> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On Sun, 23 Sep 2018 16:09:33 -0700, Hank Stanglow wrote: > >growing emphasis on Snaps > > It's just a growing hype from a minority of Ubuntu developers > involved in snap development. > > "Search thousands of snaps used by millions of people across 50 Linux > distributions" > > https://snapcraft.io/store > > There's a reason for the missing pro-audio software, due to the > container approach, it requires special interfaces to e.g. share the > sound server by different apps. > > > https://docs.snapcraft.io/core/install > > Which are those 50 distros? > > Arch isn't one of those, it's a misleading claim! > > > https://docs.snapcraft.io/core/install-arch-linux > > The installation instructions are horrible! > > > "Warning: AUR helpers are not supported by Arch Linux." - > https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR_helpers > > "Arch Linux related mailing lists and other official Arch Linux support > channels aren't an appropriate place to request help with snaps on Arch > Linux." - https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Snapd#Support > > > That something is "available", in the case of Arch Linux by something > comparable to a PPA, doesn't mean that it's supported, or that the > distro even supports the desired infrastructure. > > From the PKGBUILD's ./configure: "--disable-apparmor" - > https://aur.archlinux.org/cgit/aur.git/tree/PKGBUILD?h=snapd > > But even if you stay with Ubuntu and snaps, it's not easy to use it for > pro-audio software, if possible at all. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 21:33:47 -0700 > From: Hank Stanglow <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Some thoughts, (Off Topic) > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 09/23/2018 07:45 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > On Sun, 23 Sep 2018 16:09:33 -0700, Hank Stanglow wrote: > >> growing emphasis on Snaps > > But even if you stay with Ubuntu and snaps, it's not easy to use it for > > pro-audio software, if possible at all. > > > The point I was trying to make is the distribution model is changing. > Flathub has a lot of options, and I've seen quite a few projects go for > the self contained "Appimage" model (LMMS for example). Almost half the > software I use for multimedia comes containerized rather than from a > traditional repository model -- that goes for an Ardour subscription as > well. > > And there is also the WINE effect. It works really well these days. In a > lot of cases you can get a Windows "hassle free" audio experience in a > Linux OS, and you don't need a custom distribution for WINE. > > This is just my experience and I can't speak for Ubuntu Studio users. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > -- > ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list > [email protected] > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel > > > ------------------------------ > > End of ubuntu-studio-devel Digest, Vol 136, Issue 14 > **************************************************** >
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