UNLESS THERE IS THE DESIRE TO LEARN CHANGE IS IMPOSSIBLE; REPETITIONS MAKES ONE UNDERSTAND SLOWLY KR IRS 16325 ATHATO BRAHMA GNAASA: BRAHMA SUTRAM. MY INTENTION WHEN WE HAVE APLENTY HERE WHY FOREIGN WHO COPY BACK ONLY US? KR IRS 16325
On Sun, 16 Mar 2025 at 09:31, Yeddanapudi Markandeyulu < [email protected]> wrote: > Rajaram Sir, > Thank you.The problem is very few have patience to read your elaborate > response.Very few have time and many may not be able to understand. > YM > > On Sun, Mar 16, 2025 at 9:27 AM Rajaram Krishnamurthy < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Knowledge of the Self >> >> Self-Knowledge >> >> SEEING THYSELF >> >> ‘The infinite and eternal truth, Brahman, pervades the whole universe, >> the visible and the invisible. If the visible be taken away, (if the >> perceptible phenomena be destroyed) that which will be left is the >> Infinite. May we realize the Infinite in this life; may we attain to that >> truth and enjoy peace for ever. >> >> Peace, peace, peace to all living creatures’.—(A Hymn to Peace of the >> Upanishads, Isha and Brihadaranyaka.) >> >> The knowledge of God is not so commonly spoken of in India as the >> knowledge of the true Self. Self-knowledge reveals the knowledge of the >> real nature of the Absolute and of the supreme Deity. Ordinarily, we use >> the word ‘self’ in the sense of ego, but the term ‘Self-knowledge’ does not >> mean mere knowledge of the ego. The ego in us is the actor, thinker, and >> perceiver. That which performs all the functions of the body and mind, is >> generally known as ‘I’ or ego; but it is only the reflection of the >> absolute -Brahman, which is the source of all intelligence. The ego is the >> image of that divine spark within us, which gives it vitality and makes it >> do all works, mental and physical. So, when we speak of Self-knowledge, we >> do not mean simply the knowledge of the lower animal self or ego, but also >> of the higher Self. >> >> The higher Self is the same as the Absolute which lies at the foundation >> of the phenomenal universe. The absolute Substance or Brahman is beyond >> space and time; consequently, it is formless and unchangeable. When it >> manifests itself as an individualized, self-conscious entity, it is known >> as the ego. It also appears as the object of consciousness; then it is >> called matter. The absolute Being, however, is neither matter nor is it the >> same as ego. It forms the background of our ego; therefore, it is our true >> Self. When we have realized it, we have known God as well as the relation >> which the phenomenal universe bears to Him; and the best method of becoming >> conscious of this absolute Being is through the realization of our true >> Self, or Atman, as it is called in Sanskrit. >> >> Some people think that self-annihilation is the ideal of the Vedanta >> philosophy, but it is not so. The true Self, according to Vedanta, can >> never be destroyed. If self-annihilation were the ideal, then the Self >> would be subject to change and destruction; it could not be the same as >> tile absolute Being. The Vedanta philosophy on the contrary, teaches that >> the true Self is absolutely indestructible and unchangeable. How is it then >> possible for anyone to think of its annihilation? Destruction of Self is >> just as impossible as the destruction of the Absolute; therefore >> self-annihilation cannot be the highest aim and ideal of life. >> >> Self-knowledge alone helps us to realize the absolute Truth and to attain >> perfection. It is considered to be the highest wisdom. When Socrates asked >> the Delphian Oracle: ‘What is the highest knowledge?’ the answer came: >> ‘Know thy Self.’ By the word ‘self’ here is meant not merely the ego, but >> the true Self. The same knowledge of the real Self has been glorified in >> India from the most ancient Vedic period. Vedanta, the rationalistic >> portion of the Vedas, describes this Self-knowledge as the highest ideal of >> life. If we wish to know God, we must first know our true Self; we must ask >> within ourselves, who and what we are in reality, where we have come from, >> and what becomes of us after death? These questions are of vital >> importance. Ordinary people cannot solve such problems, their minds are too >> busy with the affairs of the phenomenal world. But an earnest seeker after >> Truth, who is discontented with the knowledge of material objects, wishes >> to go below the surface of phenomenal appearances and does not stop until >> the ultimate goal, the Reality, which underlies all phenomena, is >> discovered. His aim is to find the correct solution of these problems by >> knowing the true nature of his ego as well as of the universe. He may start >> with the objective world, but gradually, as he advances step by step and >> reaches farther and farther in his search after Truth, he comes back in the >> end to his own Self. Because the true Self is the centre of the universe. >> The phenomenal world, which consists of the objects of senseperception, may >> be compared to a grand circle, the circumference of which lies in the gross >> material forms and the innermost centre of which is Atman, the true Self. >> >> The nature of this true Self, according to Vedanta, is infinite. It is >> neither limited by time nor conditioned by space relations. The scriptures >> describe God as the centre of the universe, but Vedanta says that Self or >> Atman is also the centre of the universe, and that the true Self is one >> with Divinity. The moment that we realize the divine Self within us, we >> understand that the realm of the same Atman extends to the sun, moon, >> stars, and even to the most distant planets, the light from which takes >> hundreds and thousands of years to reach us. Wherever there is existence, >> whether on the physical or mental plane, there is also the manifestation of >> this divine Self. That by which we know the existence of the external >> world, by which we are conscious of our bodies, sense, and mental powers, >> is our true Self. It is not far from us, yet it is beyond the reach of mind >> and intellect. The Self is thus described in the fourth verse of the Isha >> Upanishad: ‘It (the Self) is beyond all vibration and motion. It is one, >> and swifter than mind. The senses never reached it, it transcended them >> all. Though standing still, it overtakes the mind and sense which are >> running fast. It is the source of all mental activities, sense-powers and >> the various forces of nature’. >> >> Modern science tells us that the whole world is the product of matter and >> material forces. Matter, again, as we have seen in the first chapter, is >> nothing but a certain state of motion or vibration of some substance, the >> true nature of which is unknown and unknowable. Every particle of the >> universe is in constant motion or vibration. That which we call heat or >> light, sound or taste, odour, touch or any object of sense-perception, is >> nothing but a state of vibration of the same unknown substance. Sir William >> Crookes says: ‘At thirty-two vibrations per second, it is shown that we >> have the first beginning of audible sound, and that sound ceases to be >> audible when it reaches to something less than thirty-three thousand >> vibrations in a second. The vibrations of heat and light rays are almost >> inconceivably more rapid. They are expressed in no fewer than fifteen >> figures, whilst the vibrations within a single second of the recently >> discovered radium are expressed in more than nine millions of millions of >> millions.’ The whole world consists in the vibration of atoms, or the most >> minute particles of material substance, but, above and beyond all this >> vibration, there exists the absolute Reality, the true Self, which is the >> source of knowledge, intelligence and consciousness. It is through this >> Self that we know that there is such a thing as vibration. >> >> >> >> Here the question rises: Who is it that knows that the world is a mass of >> vibration? Does vibration know itself? It cannot. ‘Motion produces nothing >> but motion.’ This is one of the laws of nature which has been confirmed, by >> modern scientists. Motion cannot produce knowledge. Knowledge is something >> which is not the effect of motion or vibration; but it is that which >> enlightens our minds and makes us see and understand that there is such a >> thing as motion or vibration. Therefore, the Upanishad says: ‘That which >> does not vibrate is our true Self’. Search within and see where is that >> which does not vibrate, but which is the Knower of all vibrations and >> actions. >> >> ‘It goes faster than mind’. We know that mind is the fastest thing in the >> world; thought travels faster than electricity, or any other current that >> exists on the physical plane. Sir William Crookes reasons that ‘the thought >> vibrations which issue from the brain may really have their beginning at a >> point where it becomes no longer possible to estimate the vibrations which >> are caused by the most subtle forces of physical nature.’ Further-more, he >> adds: ‘If we can any way realize the concept of a force which is capable of >> creating thousands of trillions of vibrations in a second, and if we add to >> this idea that the velocity of these vibrations is equalled by their >> rapidity, we see easily enough that thought may put a girdle about the >> earth in an infinitesimal fraction of time’. >> >> We can exchange messages by wireless telegraphy between here and England >> or any other part of the world, but thought transference is quicker than >> wireless telegraphy. The mind of a person who is sitting here can go >> straight into the sun, or beyond the sun into the infinite space where the >> ordinary force of electricity will not reach perhaps—even there the mind >> can run in the shortest interval of time. Time exists in mind. What is >> time? Time means succession in thought. When one thought rises after >> another, the interval between them is what we call time, so it is subject >> to mental activity. That which is swifter than mind is the true Self. Our >> real Self can go quicker than thought-current and even where mind cannot >> reach. It travels everywhere. Self or Atman forms the background of the >> mind, therefore the Self is quicker and faster than the activity of the >> mind. Mind can go nowhere without depending upon the Self, the Knower. It >> remains absolutely inactive when it is separated from the Self. >> >> ‘The senses never reached it, it transcended them all’. The senses cannot >> reveal it; sense-powers cannot express the true nature of the Self, because >> they are limited by time and space, while the knower of time and space must >> necessarily be beyond the reach of the senses. When we see the sun, the >> very sight depends upon self-consciousness; that is, we must be conscious >> of the fact that we are seeing something, and that consciousness must >> depend upon our true Self. The sun will not be seen, if our mind and eyes >> are separated and cut off from Self, the source of knowledge, intelligence >> and consciousness. Depending upon that source of consciousness and >> intelligence, our mind works, our senses perform their functions, and the >> body moves. Therefore, the Isha Upanishad continues: ‘It (Self) moves and >> it moves not; it is far and likewise near. It is inside and also outside of >> all this’. When the body moves, the source of intelligence, or our true >> Self, appears as moving, but in reality it does not move. Where will it go? >> It cannot go anywhere. When we move a jar from one place to another, the >> space within the jar appears to be moving; but does the space move in >> reality? No. What is it then that moves? We do not know; the form appears >> to be moving, but the form again is limitation in space. It may be said: >> ‘If space does not move, then the form cannot move’. It seems to be like a >> puzzle; when we try to answer it, at every step, we meet with insoluble >> problems. >> >> The whole of life is a mystery. We endeavour to find some explanation by >> studying nature, but nature puts us into more confusion. Science does not >> help us; she takes us up to a certain point and there she leaves us without >> showing anything beyond, without telling us what to do and where to go. >> Such is the condition of our relative knowledge. When properly analysed, it >> appears to be a partial expression of the absolute knowledge, which is the >> real nature of the true Self. Relative knowledge, however, will not help us >> in solving the riddles of the universe. If we wish to know the ultimate >> Truth of the world, we must go beyond nature and seek the explanation in >> the realm of the Absolute. Nature is called in Sanskrit maya, She deludes >> us, yet we are living in nature, and our body, senses, and mind are parts >> of nature. The more we study nature, the more we are deluded; we do not >> come to any final solution.. Scientists have arrived at certain >> conclusions, which are like conclusions, in which nothing is concluded. >> Science tells us that ultimate goal of everything is unknown and >> unknowable. Here Vedanta comes and advises its students to study not merely >> nature, but our Self or Atman; then, all confusion will be removed and the >> absolute Truth will be reached. >> >> Nature makes us see that the Self moves—when the body is in motion, but >> in reality the Self is immovable. Nature makes us feel that Self is very >> far from us, but it is the nearest thing that we have, nearer than this >> body and mind, which we consider to be the nearest; our true Self, however, >> is in reality the nearest of all. ‘It dwells in everything as its soul or >> inner nature, yet it is outside of everything’ How can that be? If it >> dwells inside, how can it dwell outside? Space exists inside as well as >> outside. Take the space within this room which is confined by its walls. >> This space appears as inside the room; but what are the walls, are they >> separate from space? No. They exist in and through space, they are nothing >> but space. The space of the walls limits the space that is inside the room; >> but does it limit in reality? No. It is outside also. Can we limit the >> infinite space? By no means. Similarly, if we try to limit our Self by our >> mind, we fail, because mind is not large and strong enough to keep the Self >> out; sense-powers cannot limit it; physical forms can never divide it; >> because each one of these exists as related to the Self. The Self or Atman, >> when properly realized, appears as unlimited and infinite. We say that we >> are finite beings, but in reality we are not finite. There is only one >> infinite Existence which expresses itself through finite forms. As finite >> forms, existing in space, cannot live outside of it, so all these various >> individuals live in and through that infinite space of Reality which is >> called the absolute Self. >> >> ‘He who realizes all beings in the Self, and the Self in all animate and >> inanimate objects of the universe, never hates anything or any being’. >> Hatred proceeds from imperfect relative knowledge, which makes us perceive >> objects as separate from one another. But, when we see our true Self in >> others, how can we hate another without hating our own Self. As it is >> impossible to hate our true Self, so it would be impossible to hate the >> Self of any being. This is one of the results of Self-knowledge. Where >> Self-knowledge is, there can remain no feeling of hatred. When hatred is >> gone, jealousy and all other selfish feelings, which we call wicked, >> disappear. What remains? The ordinary love, which stands in opposition to >> hatred, vanishes; but divine love begins to reign in the heart of the seer. >> True love means the expression of oneness. As love for body makes us feel >> one with the body, so love for the true Self makes us feel one with the >> true Self; and, if we see that Self in others, we cannot help loving them >> as we love our Self. Now we understand the meaning of ‘love thy neighbour >> as thyself.’ It is not an extraordinary teaching. Vedanta has always taught >> this truth. People of the Western world say that Christ was the only one >> who ever taught in this way, but they do not know that this is the very >> foundation of the ethics of Vedanta. >> >> Love means the expression of oneness in thought, word and deed. ‘Where >> all beings have become one with the Self, what delusion, what sorrow can >> there be to him, who has once realized this unity?’ Self-knowledge leads to >> realization of oneness with all beings. When all beings appear as parts of >> one universal Self, there is neither delusion, nor fear, nor sorrow, >> because there can exist no other thing outside of Self or Atman for which >> one can grieve or from which one can suffer. Sorrow and fear arise so long >> as there is the sense of duality or multiplicity. If all objects of fear >> and sorrow become one with the all-pervading divine Self, then fear and >> sorrow must vanish. But so long as we think of other beings which exist >> outside of our Self, we cannot avoid grief and suffering which arise on >> their account. In absolute oneness, however, there cannot remain fear, >> sorrow, suffering, separation, or self-delusion. This is another result of >> Self-knowledge. >> >> Some people may think that Vedanta teaches us to be selfish, but this is >> far from being true. The self becomes dead; the lower self vanishes, and, >> with its disappearance, all selfishness is destroyed. The word ‘Self’ must >> not be taken for lower self of selfishness. It stands for Atman, the higher >> Self, which is our divine nature. There is no other expression in English >> by which we can convey the real meaning of Atman. We shall avoid confusion, >> therefore, if we use the Sanskrit word Atman to express our true Self. >> Then, no one will mistake it for selfishness. ‘The Atman has pervaded all, >> effulgent, incorporeal, scatheless, untouched by brain or nerve centres, >> pure, sinless, a poet (kavi), wise, omnipresent, self-existent, he has >> disposed all things aright for eternity’. That Atman (Self), who is the >> centre of the universe, is all-pervading. Wherever our mind goes, there >> goes the Atman, It is the source of the light of intelligence; it is pure, >> spotless, sinless. Here you will notice that Vedanta teaches that we are >> not born in sin and iniquity, but that our Atman or true Self is sinless. >> By this it does not encourage us to do sinful acts, but it tells us that >> the moment one acquires Self-knowledge, from that moment one ceases to do >> anything wicked. The Atman is in the body, but it has no body. It is >> formless, that is, beyond gross and subtle forms. There are forms which we >> cannot see except through the most powerful microscope. Even such minutest >> forms do not affect the Self. It is absolutely beyond all forms; but at the >> same time it can appear in any form, and all forms exist in it. >> >> Atman is beyond all nervous activity, or the function of the brain. The >> materialists maintain that, when brain and nerve centres vibrate, >> self-consciousness is produced. But Vedanta contradicts their statement by >> saying: ‘It is beyond the reach of nerve centres and untouched by brain >> powers.’ It is not affected by the changes of the body; there may be >> variations in the colour or form of the physical body, or the body may be >> diseased or have some part mutilated, but that disease or mutilation will >> not produce any change in the true Self or Atman. Therefore, Self-knowledge >> makes one free from nervousness and other physical ailments. >> >> The word ‘kavi’ means poet, and also means the seer of things. Self is >> described as the greatest poet of the universe; this is one of the most >> beautiful expressions and attributes that can be given to Divinity—He is >> the poet, His poetry is the universe. He is also described as the greatest >> artist. His art we see in the sunrise and sunset. The sun, moon and stars >> are nothing but the paintings on infinite space by the hand of the almighty >> Artist. >> >> True Self or Atman is above good and evil, beyond virtue and vice. Some >> people ask: How can it be above good and evil? Others say: It is only good. >> Good and evil, however, are two relative terms; evil exists in relation to >> good, and we cannot separate the one from the other. If we wish to take >> good, we shall have to take evil also. So with virtue and vice; one cannot >> exist without being related to the other. The absolute Self is above all >> relativity; therefore, it is above good and evil, beyond virtue and vice. >> ‘There is no other seer than this Atman, no other knower.’ Who can be the >> knower of the universe? There is one eternal Knower who knows the existence >> of all objects, and the knower in us is only a part of that eternal Knower >> or God. The vast majority of mankind do not know this great truth; the >> preachers do not teach it, because they themselves do not understand it. >> God is the Knower of all, then the Knower in us is a part of God. Vedanta >> tells us to realize the individual knower first; then will the Knower of >> the universe be known. >> >> The Atman or true Self is never the object of knowledge, but it is always >> the subject. The cosmic or universal Knower is the same as that which >> people worship as God. Thus, by the light of Vedanta, we can see God close >> to our souls; but in the scriptures of special religions He is made remote, >> He is driven far out of our reach. Vedanta brings Him nearer than anything >> we possess. Although this Atman is all-pervading, yet it is beyond >> everything; it dwells in all things, still it is not the same as anything. >> It is never affected by phenomenal conditions. It transcends the changes of >> nature, yet it permeates nature. It is its own cause; in it cause and >> effect are identical. The Atman has no cause, yet it is the cause of all; >> and, at the same time, it is beyond the law of cause and effect. The Self >> has existed by itself from the beginningless past and will continue to >> exist throughout eternity; no one can see its beginning or its end, because >> beginning and end refer to time, and our search after them, being within >> the sphere of mental activity, is also subject to time. We may search for >> the beginning and end of the phenomenal universe, but as the Atman (Self) >> is above all thought and beyond time and space, it can have neither end nor >> beginning. >> >> ‘It is all-knowing.’ All relative knowledge is only a partial expression >> of that wisdom which constitutes the nature of the Atman. Now, we see that >> the attributes which people generally give to God, such as, He is >> omniscient, omnipotent, all-pervading, eternal, infinite, are also given by >> Vedanta to the Atman or true Self. True Self is the soul of our souls. >> Self-knowledge reveals that the attributes of God are also the attributes >> of the Atman. ‘Those who do not realize this true Self, dwell in the >> darkness of ignorance and go through the misery and sufferings which exist >> in that darkness’.[8] They are always fearful and unhappy. They fear death >> and everything that threatens their earthly existence, and they make their >> life miserable by attaching themselves to a particular form of >> manifestation which they are afraid of losing. They love sense enjoyments >> and worldly pleasures, they feel disappointed and discontented, if they do >> not find these, and they consider that this earthly life has no other >> higher aim or ideal. The life of such persons is nothing but a continuous >> chain of fear and unhappiness. Those who are rich, fear loss of fortune; >> those who have reputation and high position, are afraid of losing them; >> while every man or woman suffers from the fear of disease and death. Do you >> suppose that these people will ever enjoy true happiness on this earth? No. >> They alone are truly happy, who have become absolutely free from fear. >> Perfect happiness comes and all fear is conquered when Self-knowledge is >> gained. For this reason each one of us ought to make constant efforts to >> acquire it in this life. The light of Self-knowledge dispels the darkness >> of ignorance and frees us from fear, sorrow, misery, birth, and death, as >> also from bondage, imperfection, and delusion, which proceed from ignorance. >> >> This ignorance is likewise the mother of selfishness. It has the power to >> veil the divine and absolute Atman and to make us identify our true Self >> with the material body. Thus, when forced by the inscrutable power of >> ignorance (avidya), we forget our real Self, think of ourselves as the sons >> or daughters of mortals, we become finite and subject to such limitations >> as are understood by the term ‘selfishness’. Self-knowledge destroys >> ignorance and makes one absolutely unselfish. Blessed is he who lives in >> the sunshine of Self-knowledge, having risen above the clouds of fear and >> selfishness, which gather in the night of ignorance. What is this world? It >> is produced by ignorance and bound by fear. Knowledge of the Self destroys >> all worldliness, brings spiritual strength, and makes one fearless, as God >> is fearless. Does He fear anything? How can He? The moment we realize that >> God dwells in us, how can we fear? How can we have fear of death, when we >> know that death merely means a change from one body into another, and that >> our true Self or Atman is unchangeable? Those who do not possess >> Self-knowledge are miserable, and will be born again and again on this >> plane of ignorance until they have learned to realize their true Self. >> >> >> >> Self-knowledge is the only source of happiness; it will lead to >> perfection and freedom. You may seek freedom, but how can you obtain it >> when you have become a slave of fear and earthly conditions? You are a part >> of Divinity. Feel it, realize it, and all these ties will drop away, and >> you will be free. The attainment of this freedom through Self-knowledge >> will bring to you the realization of your oneness with Divinity. Then, you >> will be able to say: ‘That light which I see in the sun is in me; and that >> which is in me, is in the sun. I am the Lord of the body,’ senses, and >> mind, and I am also the Lord of all phenomenal objects’. >> >> ‘I am the light of the universe, through me shine the sun, moon, stars, >> and the lightening. I have realized my true Self. I have realized the true >> Self of the universe and therefore I am one with the Absolute {SWAMI >> ABEDANANDA} >> >> K Rajaram IRS 16325 >> >> On Sun, 16 Mar 2025 at 05:26, Markendeya Yeddanapudi < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> *Mar*All Seeing You >>> >>> Suppose you can see every bacterium, atom, molecule and their >>> activities, interactions and reactions and transformations. When you look >>> at yourself you find millions and millions of bacteria on your skin etc in >>> hectic activity. In fact you see only the micro world. >>> >>> 1) Can you see yourself as you see now? Can you actually find yourself? >>> >>> 2) Can you find, interact and understand the macro phenomena-I, We, >>> You, He, She, They and It? >>> >>> 3) How do you find subjects, predicate them and zero on the verb >>> contexts? >>> >>> 4) What will happen to your perceptions, understandings and >>> relationships? >>> >>> 5) Suppose, actually such a technology is developed with Robots with >>> such powers and endowments. Then what will happen to every science and >>> Philosophy? >>> >>> Chat GPT >>> >>> This is a fascinating thought experiment that combines philosophy, >>> science, and the limits of perception. Let's go through the questions one >>> by one. >>> >>> *1) Can you see yourself as you see now? Can you actually find yourself?* >>> >>> If you were to perceive only the micro world — every bacterium, atom, >>> molecule, and their activity — the concept of "self" as we currently >>> understand it would be challenged. From this micro perspective, you'd see >>> the individual components that make up your body, but not the "whole" you. >>> You wouldn't see yourself as the conscious being that you currently are, >>> because you'd be detached from the macro, integrated structure that gives >>> you your unified sense of identity. Instead, you’d see a complex web of >>> interacting systems: cells, bacteria, viruses, and molecular structures. >>> Your sense of "self" might dissolve into a collection of these minute, >>> individual entities in constant motion. You might be aware of the body >>> parts that make up "you," but without a sense of the conscious unity that >>> you experience as "I." >>> >>> *2) Can you find, interact and understand the macro phenomena—I, We, >>> You, He, She, They, and It?* >>> >>> With the ability to perceive the micro world, it would be difficult to >>> directly interact with or understand macro phenomena (like "I," "We," and >>> others) in the traditional sense. The macro world emerges from the micro >>> world, but understanding complex human interactions, emotions, or social >>> constructs might become difficult. At the micro level, interactions would >>> be reduced to molecular and atomic dynamics, not to personal or collective >>> experiences. Essentially, the "macro" is an abstraction, a higher-level >>> synthesis of many micro phenomena, but without access to the narrative and >>> context provided by larger systems (language, social relations, emotions), >>> the larger concepts of identity, community, and agency might not be >>> directly perceivable. >>> >>> However, through a higher-level understanding of patterns and >>> connections, one might infer the existence of macro phenomena, but not >>> experience them as human beings do. The "I" or "We" would become a >>> construct based on the interplay of billions of tiny actions. >>> >>> *3) How do you find subjects, predicate them and zero in on the verb >>> contexts?* >>> >>> In language, the subject is typically the "doer" of an action, the >>> predicate describes the action, and the verb expresses the core action >>> itself. From a micro perspective, the challenge is that subjects (i.e., >>> individuals, entities, or actions) and predicates (the actions or states) >>> are no longer obvious. You'd be seeing individual cells or molecules in >>> motion, but without a clear overarching story or context to tie these >>> activities together. For example, the concept of "I am thinking" or "We are >>> eating" might be completely unrecognizable because you’re observing >>> billions of cells and biochemical reactions, not the conscious thought or >>> social activity happening at a macro level. >>> >>> To "find" subjects and predicates, you would have to rely on some higher >>> cognitive interpretation that reconstitutes the abstract patterns of >>> behavior and interaction from the individual particles, molecules, and >>> cells that you observe. This would be a process of constructing narratives >>> from a multitude of micro-level data points, trying to infer what actions >>> belong to which "entities" (humans, objects, etc.). >>> >>> *4) What will happen to your perceptions, understandings, and >>> relationships?* >>> >>> Your perception would be fundamentally different. The usual distinctions >>> between "self" and "other," "living" and "non-living," or even "conscious" >>> and "unconscious" would blur. You would be able to see yourself not as a >>> person but as a system of interacting cells, bacteria, and molecules. >>> Relationships would be seen as biochemical or physical processes rather >>> than social, emotional, or psychological connections. Your understanding of >>> reality might become more scientific and mechanistic, where everything is >>> reduced to physical interactions and reactions, and the metaphysical >>> aspects of existence might be harder to perceive. >>> >>> Social relationships — the emotional and intellectual components of "I" >>> and "We" — could lose some of their depth and meaning, as you'd see only >>> the physical interactions rather than the emotional, mental, and >>> existential aspects of relationships. You might find it hard to relate to >>> people the way you do now, because you would no longer perceive their >>> "inner lives" in the same way. >>> >>> *5) What will happen to every science and Philosophy if robots with such >>> powers are developed?* >>> >>> If robots or AI systems were developed with such powers of microscopic >>> observation and analysis, it could revolutionize every field of science and >>> philosophy. >>> >>> - *Science*: The micro-level understanding of everything could lead >>> to breakthroughs in biology, medicine, physics, and chemistry. Diseases >>> could be understood and cured at a molecular level, new materials might >>> be >>> created based on atomic-level manipulation, and the entire process of >>> scientific discovery could be accelerated. Understanding the universe at >>> such a detailed level might allow us to manipulate matter and energy in >>> unprecedented ways. >>> - *Philosophy*: Philosophy, especially areas like consciousness >>> studies, metaphysics, and ethics, could be profoundly impacted. The >>> subjective nature of experience could be called into question, as the >>> boundary between "self" and "other" would no longer be self-evident from >>> a >>> micro perspective. Concepts like free will, personal identity, and >>> morality >>> might require rethinking in a world where everything is reducible to the >>> physical interaction of molecules. The questions of meaning and existence >>> might shift toward an analysis of the biological processes that give rise >>> to experience, rather than focusing on abstract philosophical concepts >>> like >>> "soul" or "mind." >>> >>> The very nature of subjectivity and objectivity could also be altered. >>> With this micro perception, objectivity might be expanded to a new level, >>> but subjective human experience could be harder to grasp. For example, the >>> "feeling" of pain, love, or joy might not be something observable from this >>> new perspective; you would only see the molecular or cellular processes >>> behind it, not the personal, emotional, or experiential reality. >>> >>> In summary, such technology would drastically change how we understand >>> the world, ourselves, and each other. Our traditional methods of knowledge, >>> experience, and social interaction might evolve or even fragment in >>> response to such a radical shift in perception. >>> >>> This thought experiment touches on some profound concepts about >>> perception, self-identity, and the boundaries between the micro and macro >>> worlds. Let’s dive deeper into each of the ideas: >>> 1) *Can you see yourself as you see now? Can you actually find >>> yourself?* >>> >>> The idea here is fascinating. If you were reduced to perceiving only the >>> micro world — individual molecules, cells, bacteria — you would lose the >>> macro perspective that gives you the unified sense of identity you have as >>> a conscious being. You would see the raw material of yourself, but without >>> the narrative that connects it all together. The consciousness that >>> experiences the “I” would be lost in the complexity of chemical reactions, >>> cellular movements, and bacterial interactions. In essence, you would see >>> everything that makes up "you," but you wouldn’t have a coherent >>> understanding of what it means to be "you" from the perspective of the >>> whole person. Your “self” as a human with a coherent experience would >>> dissolve into an intricate web of biological and molecular events. >>> 2) *Can you find, interact, and understand the macro phenomena—I, We, >>> You, He, She, They, and It?* >>> >>> From a strictly micro-level perspective, interacting with or >>> understanding higher-level phenomena like identity ("I"), relationships >>> ("We," "You," etc.), and other macro concepts would be incredibly >>> difficult. The micro world doesn’t inherently contain the structures for >>> interpersonal dynamics, language, or social contexts. You'd see the >>> molecular interactions that form these concepts, but without access to the >>> human experience, you wouldn’t be able to engage with the emotional, >>> psychological, or social depth of these relationships. These abstractions — >>> the concepts of identity, community, and agency — would appear to be >>> nothing more than the byproducts of molecular and atomic interactions. In >>> essence, you'd be able to observe patterns of behavior but not fully >>> comprehend them as human phenomena. >>> 3) *How do you find subjects, predicate them, and zero in on the verb >>> contexts?* >>> >>> This is an interesting linguistic and cognitive challenge. Normally, >>> when we describe something using a subject, verb, and predicate, we rely on >>> human experience and context to connect actions and identities. However, at >>> the micro level, subjects (e.g., people, objects, ideas) and predicates >>> (the actions or states) become abstract, as the entities we typically think >>> of as subjects are now a collection of atoms, cells, and molecules. Finding >>> a “subject” is more difficult because you’re not seeing a coherent person, >>> but an intricate system of biological and chemical interactions. >>> Understanding who or what is performing the action (the subject), what the >>> action is (the verb), and how it fits into the larger context would require >>> you to reframe actions as the movement and interaction of physical >>> processes. You would need to extrapolate larger concepts from microscopic >>> phenomena. >>> 4) *What will happen to your perceptions, understandings, and >>> relationships?* >>> >>> Your perception would shift from being human-centered to a more >>> mechanistic or reductionist view of the world. Your understanding of >>> yourself and others would be grounded in the biochemical and molecular >>> level, potentially eroding the deeper emotional and existential qualities >>> of human interactions. You may no longer perceive others as whole, complex >>> beings with emotions, intentions, and subjectivity, but rather as systems >>> of interacting parts. Relationships, which are often emotional and social, >>> would be reduced to the physical processes that underlie them. The >>> meaningful aspects of connection, like empathy or shared experiences, might >>> be harder to grasp when viewed from this perspective, as you would be >>> focused on the mechanics rather than the essence of the relationship. >>> 5) *What will happen to every science and philosophy if robots with >>> such powers are developed?* >>> >>> If robots or AI systems with such microscopic perception were created, >>> the impact on science and philosophy would be profound: >>> >>> · *Science:* This would dramatically accelerate scientific >>> discovery. Diseases could be understood and cured at a molecular or atomic >>> level. New technologies could be developed based on understanding and >>> manipulating matter at a deeper level. Fields like medicine, material >>> science, and physics would be revolutionized, allowing us to create or >>> repair things with precision that was once unimaginable. The ability to >>> observe and control at the micro level could lead to breakthroughs in >>> fields ranging from nanotechnology to neuroscience. >>> >>> · *Philosophy:* Philosophy would also undergo a radical >>> transformation. Concepts of self, identity, and consciousness could be >>> redefined. Questions about the nature of consciousness and free will might >>> become even more complex when viewed from a micro perspective. The >>> subjective experience of being "you" might seem even more elusive, and >>> ethical questions could arise about the value of human subjectivity in a >>> world where everything is reducible to molecular interactions. >>> Philosophical inquiries into meaning, identity, and existence would likely >>> shift to exploring the physical and biological processes that give rise to >>> these concepts, instead of relying on more abstract, existential frameworks. >>> >>> In essence, such technology could blur the lines between the physical >>> and the metaphysical, making it harder to distinguish between "reality" as >>> we experience it and the deeper, mechanical truths that underlie it. >>> Conclusion >>> >>> This thought experiment challenges the fundamental assumptions we hold >>> about perception, self, and reality. If we were able to see only the micro >>> world, the richness of human experience — emotions, relationships, identity >>> — might lose some of their depth. At the same time, we would gain an >>> unparalleled understanding of the physical processes that make up our >>> existence. It would certainly push both science and philosophy to new >>> frontiers, and perhaps force us to reconsider the very nature of reality >>> itself. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Thatha_Patty" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/thatha_patty/CAL5XZorRt2g7kPCNFhrjAS-%2B-g0QDLB%3DrStPOZve%2BiegdjjC4Q%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/thatha_patty/CAL5XZorRt2g7kPCNFhrjAS-%2B-g0QDLB%3DrStPOZve%2BiegdjjC4Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Thatha_Patty" group. 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