FYI seeing this one again:
arch: s390x
host release: noble
lxd: installed: 6.3-a85d6a5 (33245) 104MB -
snapd: installed: 2.68.4 (24506) 48MB snapd
$ lxd stop testkvm-focal-to
internal error, please report: running "lxd" failed: transient scope
adding the requested log file
** Attachment added: "solver log as requested"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apt/+bug/2111792/+attachment/5880565/+files/log.edsp.xz
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Public bug reported:
As reported on bug 2111790 gpgv-from-sq was pulled in.
Julian said to cerate a new bug for this aspect [1].
This here is that bug.
Original behavior
```
$ sudo apt upgrade
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
gpgv-from-sq gpgv-
I've created https://gitlab.com/apparmor/apparmor/-/merge_requests/1702
but the build pipeline is still in progress.
FWIW, I noticed that "iotop-c" command needs some AA tweaking too, and
the fix has already been merged upstream:
https://gitlab.com/apparmor/apparmor/-/merge_requests/1675
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Gaah, and shortly after submitting this one I remembered that Ubuntu
enables AppArmor by default:
-
$ sudo aa-status
apparmor module is loaded.
173 profiles are loaded.
90 profiles are in enforce mode.
[...]
lsblk
$ sudo aa-complain /usr/bin/lsb
Public bug reported:
After upgrading from 24.10 to 25.04 the "lsblk" command (from util-
linux) is not seeing disks, and shows only my ZRAM device:
-
$ df -h /
Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
/dev/xvda2 30G 12G 18G 40% /
** Changed in: dnsmasq (Ubuntu)
Assignee: Miriam España Acebal (mirespace) => Lukas Märdian (slyon)
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/2026757
Title:
[SRU
** Tags removed: server-triage-discuss
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/2106017
Title:
NetworkManager still adds default ipv6 route despite setting t
Added as known issue referring to the bug and mentioning the mitigation
=> https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/plucky-puffin-release-notes/48687
** Also affects: ubuntu-release-notes
Importance: Undecided
Status: New
** Changed in: ubuntu-release-notes
Status: New => Fix Released
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** Changed in: apparmor (Ubuntu)
Assignee: (unassigned) => Maxime Bélair (mbelair)
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Title:
lsblk on IBM z Syste
** Changed in: apparmor (Ubuntu)
Assignee: (unassigned) => Maxime Bélair (mbelair)
** Changed in: apparmor (Ubuntu)
Status: New => Confirmed
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http
Public bug reported:
Hey,
while debugging bug 2107402 we found that there is more to fix.
Running lsblk in a container on s390x hits this:
[12064869.934674] audit: type=1400 audit(1744791155.353:111962):
apparmor="DENIED" operation="file_mmap" class="file"
namespace="root//lxd-p_" profile="lsblk
On one hand we see this should block all of it - but installs work.
But on the other Maybe this is just for extended attributes of the disk.
Let us check that ...
Understanding that will help to decide if this sis a stall-the-release
or a normal SRU
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It seems mbelair is already on it =>
https://gitlab.com/apparmor/apparmor/-/merge_requests/1632
Great I do not need to prep a PR for it.
I'll reach out to coordinate
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Discussed with Frank,
while it is not great, CSS >0 are rare.
They are more likely
Decision was to add a release note entry as known issue, and drive the
fix as SRU.
The remaining gap is its usage on the install path, but mainframe users
are even more LTS centric. Noble is unaffected, upgrades t
** Changed in: apparmor (Ubuntu)
Importance: High => Medium
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Title:
lsblk on IBM z Systems blocked by apparmor in
Added the two people working on these profiles before as FYI
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Title:
lsblk on IBM z Systems blocked by apparmor in 2
This is a regression in Plucky, the lsblk profile is new.
Compare
-
https://launchpadlibrarian.net/752337126/buildlog_ubuntu-oracular-s390x.apparmor_4.1.0~beta1-0ubuntu3_BUILDING.txt.gz
-
https://launchpadlibrarian.net/787477386/buildlog_ubuntu-plucky-s390x.apparmor_4.1.0~beta5-0ubuntu14_BUILDING
Hey, we've been discussing this in the release sprint.
While it is a goal to get all buildable, but it is probably too late for this.
If it needs an SRU it would need to be fixed as part of that.
FYI -8 also was FTBFS https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mir/2.14.1-8
The request then was to remove
Trying to see if all is ready
- #1 further drivers
First of all thanks Daniel for the answer.
But if "please treat it like that - recommended for optimal experience but
not something we are allowed to install by default" is the way it needs to
be in plucky this way.
Sorry that being paten
Hey,
thanks for explaining the background so well - we all have been there at the
uncertainty if all will be ready to make a particular switch. We didn't switch
to MIR 2.20 as you say and it is too late to try.
Hence
I'm unsure on mir (at first).
It is not that we'd remove an unintended 2.20, w
Actually it had the right state already since the security review.
And [1] also disables trace as recommended by security - thanks.
So all we are waiting is freeze lift, upload, promote then ...
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During `sudo apt-get update` && `sudo apt-get upgrade` the command ended
with:
$ sudo apt-get upgrade
...
Processing triggers for linux-image-6.8.0-54-generic (6.8.0-54.56) ...
/etc/kernel/postinst.d/initramfs-tools:
update-initramfs: Generating /boot/initrd.img-6.8.0-54-generic
E: /usr/share/init
Well and ...
$ sudo reboot now
... leads to a server that is irresponsive to
1) my ssh terminal as well as in
2) the DigitalOcean Droplet Console.
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And after restoring the server the first error on upgrading again is:
$ sudo apt upgrade
...
E: /usr/share/initramfs-tools/hooks/btrfs failed with return 1.
update-initramfs: failed for /boot/initrd.img-6.8.0-54-generic with 1.
run-parts: /etc/kernel/postinst.d/initramfs-tools exited with return c
I made the changes and ran it:
mhb@ubuntu-s-2vcpu-4gb-fra1-01:~$ sudo update-initramfs -u
update-initramfs: Generating /boot/initrd.img-6.8.0-52-generic
+ set -e
+ PREREQ=
+ prereqs
+ echo
+ exit 0
+ set -e
+ PREREQ=
+ . /usr/share/initramfs-tools/hook-functions
+ [ -x /bin/btrfs ]
+ echo DEBUG: b
Public bug reported:
initramfs-tools package in noble repository is defective and does not
contain /usr/share/initramfs-tools/hooks directory. This prevents proper
installation and configuration of initramfs-tools.
$ lsb_release -rd
No LSB modules are available.
Description:Ubuntu 24.04.2 LTS
All good now, should migrate in the next run
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/2095584
Title:
open-iscsi: ubuntu-only test needs update for Python 3.
Most arches tests worked now, tempfail on amd64 which was requeued
** Changed in: open-iscsi (Ubuntu)
Status: New => In Progress
** Changed in: python3-defaults (Ubuntu)
Status: New => Invalid
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All approved and still testing fine (needed a rebas), uploaded to
plucky.
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Title:
open-iscsi: ubuntu-only te
It actually works well on infra - \o/
- open-iscsi: plucky/open-iscsi/2.1.10-3ubuntu3~pluckyppa1 [amd64]
+ ✅ open-iscsi on plucky for amd64 @ 14.02.25 06:12:51 Log️ 🗒️
- open-iscsi: plucky/open-iscsi/2.1.10-3ubuntu3~pluckyppa1 [arm64]
+ ✅ open-iscsi on plucky for arm64 @ 14.02.25
Built, queued the tests on infra ...
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Title:
open-iscsi: ubuntu-only test needs update for Python 3.13
Stat
Created a PPA with builds based on the interim state,
intention is to see how it behvaes if autopkgtest runs on the real
infrastructure
https://launchpad.net/~paelzer/+archive/ubuntu/lp-2095584-open-iscsi-tests
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What is it that really breaks it
- the late message
unable to find kernel in
/tmp/autopkgtest.EBaDMb/build.J66/src/debian/tests/plucky.d/disk.img
- the obvious apt changed message earlier
sed: can't read /etc/apt/sources.list: No such file or directory
There is again too much code meant to be
t part of the UI for extra checks
- no translation present, but none needed for this case (no end user facing
parts)
Problems: None
** Changed in: libva (Ubuntu)
Assignee: Christian Ehrhardt (paelzer) => Ubuntu Security Team
(ubuntu-security)
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** Changed in: libva (Ubuntu)
Assignee: (unassigned) => Christian Ehrhardt (paelzer)
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Title:
[MIR] libva
Sta
This looks like one of your profiles doesn't have
include
which causes the "Found reference to variable etc_ro, but >" messages.
Unfortunately the systemctl output is cut off so I can't see which
profile it is. Can you please post the output of
systemctl status apparmor.service | cat
testlib is from a time several packages tried to establish a shared lib for
tets functions.
But requirements diverged and so this never came to permanent good use.
Due to that in this particular case the broken code is just unused.
Which means the fix for the usage of crypt which is failing in th
Now it is over the syntax errors and similar, but breaks on being unable
to handle plucky images.
...
unable to find kernel in
/tmp/autopkgtest.r8RVcA/build.x7y/src/debian/tests/plucky.d/disk.img
setUpClass (__main__.CloudImageTest) ... ERROR
=
By being out of proposed this does not immediately fail the tests
anymore, but there is a risk that the same will hit e.g. O->P or N->R
upgrades, worth a look if you can afford it?
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Thanks for the report and the patch!
I submitted the fix upstream at
https://gitlab.com/apparmor/apparmor/-/merge_requests/1484 - using a
slightly different patch (since there's already a sed call we can
extend). I also added a similar fix to aa-remove-unknown.
** Also affects: apparmor
Import
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/2059859
Title:
pam_env(sshd:session): deprecated reading of user environment enabled
Status in gdm3 package in Ubuntu:
New
Opening a systemd task as that seems not so much an nginx issue, but a symptom
in nginx due to systemd.
Also I assume once 257-2ubuntu1 is in the plucky images right away this issue
will be gone.
But I'm not sure about noble/oracular -> plucky upgrades.
Asking for a systemd POV look at this plea
Checked further and reduced the set to install to trigger the issue.
And that was ... interesting, imagine a long log that I removed, here is what
matters:
1. No other software is needed
I formerly reduced it just to libvirt+nginx, but that only mattered
because its dependencies made it upgrade
Thanks Simon and Jeremy!
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/2089779
Title:
Buffer overflow in autopkgtest of wesnoth
Status in boost1.83 package in U
Public bug reported:
As far as I found the changelog https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ucf/3.0044
this might be required as all I can find there is:
- add missing Depends: procps, ${perl:Depends}
So if there is a real dependency it can't just be dropped.
But maybe whatever depends on it
This fully migrated and works now.
Furthermore upstream was great and quick, they have fixes for the crash
and the LTO warning in the latest and the 2.30.x branch. Reproducible
builds is merged in both as well.
That means we can drop that delta (O2 and reproducible builds) on the
merge of the nex
Uploaded as 2.30.9+dfsg-1ubuntu1 and checking proposed migration in a
bit ...
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Title:
Buffer overflow in aut
Tried O2 in variants via
- export DEB_CFLAGS_MAINT_APPEND = -O2
- export DEB_LDFLAGS_MAINT_APPEND = -Wl,-O2
Tested:
- ldflags + cflags = works
- cflags = works
- ldflags = still crashing
Ok, in that case cflags alone is the smallest (and more common) yet
working change to add.
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Interesting build warning
libtool: link: ranlib build/.libs/libSDL2_test.a
libtool: link: ( cd "build/.libs" && rm -f "libSDL2_test.la" && ln -s
"../libSDL2_test.la" "libSDL2_test.la" )
In function 'SDL_memcpy_REAL',
inlined from 'SDL_SetCurrentDisplayMode' at
/home/ubuntu/SDL/src/video/SDL_
I could now, knowing that it is O3+LTO also reproduce it with upstream
git :-)
I checked the former 2.30.6 which would also behave the same way if LTO
and O3 are enabled, so at the end it wasn't the new version of libsdl2
at all.
I submitted it to upstream for their awareness.
Reproducible build
I checked if O3->O2 alone would also fix the issue - it does.
Julian had a great suggestion:
"""
I'd argue disable -O3; but it may also be fruitful to look where it crashes and
force -O2 for that function using `attribute((optimize(2))` (re @paelzer: Hi,
if LTO+O3 ...)
"""
Before the debugging
Second check good, the non-lto build makes it work.
buntu@autopkgtest:~$ /usr/games/wesnoth-1.18 -m --controller 1:ai --controller
2:ai --nogui
Battle for Wesnoth v1.18.3 x86_64
Started on Mon Dec 2 12:48:04 2024
Data directory: /usr/share/games/wesnoth/1.18
User configuration di
As a bonus of debugging this, the reproducible builds have fallen out as well.
The patch that I use works (that is what was tested above) and it is stable in
its binaries across 10 builds:
md5sum 0*/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libSDL2-2.0.so.0*.objdump
cd47f413db025e99b4d888e84fac4a31
00/usr/lib/x
I used it more like a shotgun, but with local attribute((optimize(2)) in
the place of the warning and back up the stack of the crash I got still
a crash.
I'll use it a bit more widely and if working then refine that throughout
tomorrow as it is iterating "modify + run (for some time)".
If OTOH no
Just also adding -flto=auto to LDFLAGS (in addition to CFLAGS) did not
start to cause the issue on the git build.
But I think it is worth trying export
DEB_BUILD_MAINT_OPTIONS=optimize=-lto in the PPA builds.
And indeed the no-LTO build in:
https://launchpad.net/~paelzer/+archive/ubuntu/lp-208
I was re-verifying some of the major decision points to make sure this
goes the right paths (after all this crossed three digits of builds
overall) and as my gut feeling told me, something is even more odd.
I went back and ended up no more being able to reproduce the good case.
Not even with the P
New build, this time without debug-symbol and therefore no stripping on
build.
Results:
10x with "fixed reproducible build (or crap)" patch - 10x fail
10x rebuild "as-is" - 10x fail
So I have a single magic build that works in [1] and all others fail :-/
Even 10 of what should be the same.
?What
:-/ I accidentally built 20 times repro instead of 10/10 and one had a
failing builder (not build)
They ALL triggered the crash - at least it seems not flaky.
So maybe, it is more the debugsymbol stripping as assumed above.
Because in the try to be
Let me do a few without, at least it
Oddly bu
** Attachment added: "bad.buildinfo"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libsdl2/+bug/2089779/+attachment/5841033/+files/bad.buildinfo
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** Attachment added: "good.buildlog"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libsdl2/+bug/2089779/+attachment/5841030/+files/good.buildlog
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** Attachment added: "bad.buildlog"
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libsdl2/+bug/2089779/+attachment/5841031/+files/bad.buildlog
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** Attachment added: "good.buildinfo"
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htt
Ok, this loves to stay weird :-/ The rebuild fails as well!
Which leaves very little difference left :-/
PPA build yesterday, works
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libsdl2/2.30.9+dfsg-1build1/+build/29317183
Archive build yesterdday, fails
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libsdl2/2.30.9+
Uh wait, the bad build in proposed was against ALL in -proposed (as of 13 days
ago).
But the PPA build was against plucky as-is.
Let me change the PPA dependencies to include proposed and rebuild once more ...
(just to make sure nothing still in -proposed is what breaks this and would
break the
Uploading libsdl2_2.30.9+dfsg-1build1.dsc
Uploading libsdl2_2.30.9+dfsg-1build1.debian.tar.xz
Uploading libsdl2_2.30.9+dfsg-1build1_source.buildinfo
Uploading libsdl2_2.30.9+dfsg-1build1_source.changes
Waiting for build and re-tests ...
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The only reasonable thing in there with a function is the lib itself.
$ find good
good
good/usr
good/usr/share
good/usr/share/doc
good/usr/share/doc/libsdl2-2.0-0
good/usr/share/doc/libsdl2-2.0-0/README.md
good/usr/share/doc/libsdl2-2.0-0/CREDITS.txt
good/usr/share/doc/libsdl2-2.0-0/changelog.gz
Very interesting - both the 2.30.6 but even the
2.30.9+dfsg-1ubuntu1~pluckyppa1 no change rebuild work.
$ sudo apt install libsdl2-2.0-0=2.30.9+dfsg-1ubuntu1~pluckyppa1
..
works
So something was wrong when built as
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libsdl2/2.30.9+dfsg-1
Which was better now t
** No longer affects: dnsmasq (Ubuntu Lunar)
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Title:
dnsmasq on Ubuntu Jammy crashes on neutron-dhcp-agent updates
S
Adding the cflgas from our build to the mix:
$ git clean -xfd
$ git clean checkout .
$ export CFLAGS="-Wdate-time -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=3 -g -O2
-Werror=implicit-function-declaration -fno-omit-frame-pointer
-mno-omit-leaf-frame-pointer -flto=auto -ffat-lto-objects
-fstack-protector-strong -fstack-c
lts (Ubuntu)
Status: New => Fix Released
** Changed in: libsdl2 (Ubuntu)
Status: Incomplete => Confirmed
** Changed in: libsdl2 (Ubuntu)
Assignee: (unassigned) => Christian Ehrhardt (paelzer)
** Changed in: wesnoth (Ubuntu)
Assignee: Christian Ehrhardt (paelzer) =&
Between versions could most likely be packaging, upstream or something in the
build env changing.
Most changes are in the upstream version, so let me try how
https://github.com/libsdl-org/SDL.git behaves.
This is only what is in
libsdl2-2.0-0:amd64 2.30.9+dfsg-1
Not the other s
The crash itself is, despite debuginfod, not more informative than the
following:
(gdb) bt
#0 __pthread_kill_implementation (threadid=, signo=6, no_tid=0)
at ./nptl/pthread_kill.c:44
#1 __pthread_kill_internal (threadid=, signo=6) at
./nptl/pthread_kill.c:78
#2 __GI___pthread_kill (threadid=,
I can recreate this locally, and really the new libsdl2 seems to be the
culprint.
Fine:
$ sudo ~/work/autopkgtest/autopkgtest/runner/autopkgtest --no-built-binaries
--apt-upgrade --shell wesnoth-1.18_1.18.3-1.dsc -- qemu --ram-size=8192 --cpus
2 ~/work/autopkgtest-plucky-amd64.img
Triggers the
Always passed in oracular
https://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/w/wesnoth-1.18/oracular/amd64
In Plucky it seems to fail mostly with:
libsdl2 | 2.30.9+dfsg-1
(oracular had 2.30.6+dfsg-1)
And at the same time still working otherwise
https://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/w/wesnoth-1.18/plucky
tance: Undecided
Assignee: Christian Ehrhardt (paelzer)
Status: Triaged
** Tags: update-excuse
** Tags added: update-excuse
** Also affects: libsdl2 (Ubuntu)
Importance: Undecided
Status: New
** Changed in: wesnoth (Ubuntu)
Status: New => Incomplete
** Changed in:
The version shipped with 24.04 did not have this problem.
So a work around, if you are live booting off USB (as I was), is to use a 24.04
image for this.
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Only the source and bin:native-architecture was requested.
Promoted these now that all is approved and agreed.
Let us see if that allows things to migrate and resolve without further
mismatches.
Override component to main
native-architecture 0.2.3 in plucky amd64: universe/devel/optional/100% ->
Public bug reported:
Ubuntu 24.10 running live from USB
I'm trying to resize some partitions so I can upgrade (because /boot needs more
room)
lvresize fails with:
/usr/libexec/lvresize_fs_helper: execvp failed: No such file or directory
This appears to be that lvm2 bug 124 has not been fixed in
Switching back to "new" since the fix still needs to be added to the
Ubuntu package.
** Changed in: apparmor (Ubuntu)
Status: Fix Committed => New
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htt
This was fixed upstream with
https://gitlab.com/apparmor/apparmor/-/merge_requests/1240
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/2083612
Title:
aa-remove-unknown: I
Fix submitted for AppArmor upstream:
https://gitlab.com/apparmor/apparmor/-/merge_requests/1333
Until the fix arrives in Ubuntu, you can add the additional lines to
your /etc/apparmor.d/abstractions/mesa or (better) create a file
/etc/apparmor.d/abstractions/mesa.d/lp2081692 with the added lines.
For reference: This was fixed upstream with
https://gitlab.com/apparmor/apparmor/-/merge_requests/1218 in April.
Until fixed Ubuntu packages are available, you can manually apply the
(simple) patch from that merge request.
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Hey Ravi,
thanks for driving this!
We see progress on the meta packages \o/.
Furthermore I was able to process many but not all of the related removals.
Therefore it might be time to re-check, summarize and double down on the
few tasks that are left to make it in time for beta freeze?
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> comm="apparmor_signal" requested_mask="receive" denied_mask="receive"
signal=kill peer="/home/ubuntu/apparmor_signal_test_wrap.sh"
So you get a denial for receiving a signal from
peer="/home/ubuntu/apparmor_signal_test_wrap.sh" - which is not
surprising because that peer has a profile:
> "/home
** Also affects: apparmor
Importance: Undecided
Status: New
** Changed in: apparmor
Status: New => Fix Released
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/b
Thanks for the great debug work so far already, I think it is "apparmor
or kernel" enough that we should add those packages and subscribe a few
folks we know dealing with those details - I'd start with jjohansen as
he'd be the best to map us to either knowledge or a known case.
** Also affects: ap
Hi Jeremy
> I do not understand why bugs like this cannot get fixed even years after
> several people have reported the same issue and the repro steps are clear
I understand this might seem frustrating, but the TL;DR is: Because it
isn't as clear as it might seem
Detail:
As you see throughout t
ackage in Noble:
Won't Fix
Status in libvirt source package in Noble:
Won't Fix
Bug description:
Christian summarizes this after the great reports by Martin:
gnutls started to ship forceful disables in pkg/import/3.8.1-4ubuntu3
and added more later.
Due to that anything link
le:
In Progress
Status in chrony source package in Noble:
Won't Fix
Status in gnutls28 source package in Noble:
Won't Fix
Status in libvirt source package in Noble:
Won't Fix
Bug description:
Christian summarizes this after the great reports by Martin:
gnutls started to sh
apparmor source package in Noble:
New
Status in chrony source package in Noble:
New
Status in gnutls28 source package in Noble:
New
Status in libvirt source package in Noble:
New
Bug description:
Christian summarizes this after the great reports by Martin:
gnutls started to ship fo
urce package in Noble:
New
Status in libvirt source package in Noble:
New
Bug description:
Christian summarizes this after the great reports by Martin:
gnutls started to ship forceful disables in pkg/import/3.8.1-4ubuntu3
and added more later.
Due to that anything linked against gnutl
** Description changed:
+ Christian summarizes this after the great reports by Martin:
+
+ gnutls started to ship forceful disables in pkg/import/3.8.1-4ubuntu3
+ and added more later.
+
+ Due to that anything linked against gnutls while being apparmor isolated
+ now hits similar denials
I've added a section to the release notes summing this up and linking
back here and to some of the past links.
** Changed in: ubuntu-release-notes
Status: In Progress => Fix Released
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FYI: updated ubuntu-meta, now in noble-proposed as version 1.532
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1833322
Title:
Please consider no more having irqbalanc
FYI: Seed change landed
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1833322
Title:
Please consider no more having irqbalance enabled by default (per
image/use-cas
Steve was so kind reviewing and approving my proposal.
Doing that now is also helpful as it should make sure it still has quite some
exposure and thereby chances for people to report issues (vs if we'd land it
much later like after beta freeze).
Changes will:
- change the seeds in regard to irqb
While there was sadly neither enough time not enough resources to do all
the deep dive analysis that could have been done, we succeeded by
reaching out to many more parties and got their input as well. Thank you
all!
Since Noble feature freeze is coming we need to make a call either way.
I propose
Interesting, that is more towards irqbalance than I heard so far.
thanks Fabio!
So we might end up needing to go like "Generally disabled except this
list of places [...] where it stays enabled".
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Touch seeded packages, whic
Hey Henry, thanks for chiming in and I agree in general that tech moved on.
Myself and others said similar before, thanks for adding more details and
voices - that is what such a discussion is about.
> they just don't go ping-ponging around between
In particular on this aspect, so much has happe
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