rce code at compile
time, but it can't do anything about mock source code until runtime when
you pass it to exec, eval or compile. That's because until that moment,
it's just a string of characters, not source code.
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ation apart from some simple
constant folding. If you're interested in optimizing Python, you should
look at the JIT optimizing Python compiler, PyPy.
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3
tl;dr: you've announced a project that never existed as "back and better
than ever", and asked others to write the code for you.
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Not in the least bit surprising. I expected nothing less from you.
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API, breaking large chunks of code up and
> spreading them across individual files is the key to managing code
> bases.
You left out the word "badly".
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ce. That descriptor will create and
populate the FooClass instance, which does the real work.
Descriptors are how methods, classmethods, staticmethods and properties
work, so they are a fundamental, powerful way of implementing things like
this.
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supposed to solve? Do you often find that
Python has introduced new keywords, breaking your code?
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t; more):
What does this have to do with Python?
Please don't encourage people to choose a random, inappropriate newsgroup/
mailing list to ask unrelated questions.
Some slack can be given to regulars who raise interesting OT questions,
but not drive-by posters.
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It's hard enough for
newbies to deal with *two* dialects, 2 and 3. And you want to introduce
dozens. Thanks, but no thanks.
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On Thu, 20 Feb 2014 20:39:10 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> In working on a proposal that might result in the creation of a new
> keyword, I needed to ascertain what names were used extensively in
> existing Python code.
I would love to steal^W see your script for doing this :-)
-
hen I can write code like:
for for in in:
while while:
if if:
raise raise
which will go a long way to ensuring that my code is an hostile and
unreadable as possible.
(Sometimes, less can be more. That's especially true of programming
languages.)
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bject.htm
and also see the Wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_strategy
If you show us a sample of your code, together of a sample of how you
expect it to work, we can suggest an alternate way to solve that problem.
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ode readability
Or greatly destroy it, which is precisely the reason why Python doesn't
have a macro system. When Guido van Rossum reads Python code, he wants it
to look like Python code, not some arbitrary custom-built language.
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e manual for a language or library, that's
documenting the API. That's all there is to it.
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e better for you to give us concrete examples of what you don't
understand, rather than to continue talking in vague generalities.
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ord "variable"). Now, I use
the terms "variable" or "reference" or "name binding" as I feel makes the
most sense in context, depending on my best guess of the risk of
misunderstanding or confusion.
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ns of it that you need extra abstraction layers?
Of course, I might be misinterpreting your post. Perhaps you do have so
many steps, and so many different types of deployment, that you do need a
more heavily abstracted system. In that case, I think you need to
describe your system in more d
out there reading this, please respond with more detail
about what you are trying to do!
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oesn't it swap the two variables, but it raises an exception.
Far from being a universal swap, it's merely an obfuscated function to
swap a few hard-coded local variables.
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not do that -- you have to manually manage the pointers yourself,
while Pascal does it for you. And Python also has nothing like that.
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b[1]
>
> Provably identical to:
>
> def swap(a, b):
> return b, a
>
> The rest is just fluff.
You don't even need the function call.
a, b = b, a
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On Sat, 22 Feb 2014 18:29:02 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 6:18 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> Now I daresay that under the hood, Pascal is passing the address of foo
>> (or bar) to the procedure plus, but inside plus you don't see that
>&
On Sat, 22 Feb 2014 09:28:10 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano :
>
>> But your code doesn't succeed at doing what it sets out to do. If you
>> try to call it like this:
>>
>> py> x = 23
>> py> y = 42
>> py> swap(x, y)
&
y use the Mac Toolbox memory routines to allocate memory, create
and destroy handles, etc.
If you just used your programming language's normal pointers, they
couldn't and wouldn't move.
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the only difference. The big
difference is that in "fixed location" languages, it makes sense to talk
about the address of a *variable*. In C, you might ask for &xyz and get
123456 regardless of whether xyz is assigned the value 1, or 23, or 999.
But in Python, you can't a
On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 12:50:26 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> In C or Pascal-style languages, what we might call the "fixed address"
>> style of variables, a variable assignment like xy
hat?
Sorry, I don't really understand your question. Could you show an example
of what you are doing?
Do you mean "add 5" or "*5"? "Add *5 doesn't really mean anything to me.
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On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 11:52:05 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano :
>
>> The big difference is that in "fixed location" languages, it makes
>> sense to talk about the address of a *variable*.
>
> The address could be a symbol, too.
>
> The
ode with the underlying implementation
of the Python virtual machine.
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ed soon ?
Not unless somebody raises it as a bug, or uses the feedback form to
notify the web developers.
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On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 21:07:42 +1300, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> Yes, Pascal has pointers as a first-class data type. Syntax is similar
>> to C, ^x is a pointer to x, p^ dereferences the pointer p.
>
> Actually, the prefix ^ is only used fo
> What is under debate is whether we should also add %a:
>
>b'%a' % some_obj --> b'some_obj_repr'
>
> What %a would do:
>
>get the repr of some_obj
>
>convert it to ascii using backslashreplace (to handle any code points
>over 127)
>
>encode to bytes using 'ascii'
>
> Can anybody think of a use-case for this particular feature?
Not me.
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human-readable, but *semantically
meaningful*. That's why the subject line is labelled "Subject" rather
than "Field 23" or "SJT".
Fortunately, such headers are usually (always?) ASCII, and byte strings
in Python privilege ASCII-encoded text. When you write b'Subject', you
get the same sequence of bytes as 'Subject'.encode('ascii').
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On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 16:10:53 -0800, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 02/24/2014 03:55 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> Will b'%s' take any arbitrary object, as in:
>>
>> b'Key: %s' % [1, 2, 3, 4]
>> => b'Key: [1, 2, 3, 4]'
>
> No.
Ver
result.
What, getting a set back?
No, I disagree. If you want a set, it's easy to do:
dicta.keys() | dictb.keys()
(In Python 2, use viewkeys instead.)
gives you a set of the intersection of the keys. The only point of having
dicts support set-like operations directly is if you get a dict bac
lues of a set*, but here "value" is being used as a synonym for
"element" and not as a technical term for the thing which mappings
associate with a key.
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exec, I need to do this instead:
py> def eggs():
... mylocals = {}
... exec( """x = 23""", globals(), mylocals)
... x = mylocals['x']
... return x
...
py> eggs()
23
The fact that it works in spam() above is perhaps an accident of
imp
On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 14:46:39 +0100, Peter Otten wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> I have to dynamically generate some code inside a function using exec,
>> but I'm not sure if it is working by accident or if I can rely on it.
>>
>> Here is a
On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 14:00:59 +, Alister wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 13:15:25 +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> I have to dynamically generate some code inside a function using exec,
>> but I'm not sure if it is working by accident or if I can rely on it.
[...]
On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 16:34:33 +1300, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> except SyntaxError:
>> def inner():
>> # manually operate the context manager call context manager
>> __enter__
>>
which can be called
from multiple versions of Python from a single installation.
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On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 00:29:35 +1300, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 16:34:33 +1300, Gregory Ewing wrote:
>>
>>>Why not just use this version all the time? It should work in both 2.x
>>>and 3.x.
>>
>> B
On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 22:21:31 +, Joseph L. Casale wrote:
> How does one satisfy a lint/type checker with the return value of a
> class method decorated with a descriptor?
Surely the answer will depend on the linter you are using. Care to tell
us, or shall we guess?
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gt; A is B
> False
> . and WHY that is or isn't
If they point to the same piece of memory -- which, by the way, can be
moved around if the garbage collector supports it -- then A is B cannot
possibly return False.
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what
value the caller wanted is to leave the choice of truncating floats up to
them. That's what the decimal module does, and it is the right decision.
If the user passes a float directly, they should get *exact conversion*,
because you have no way of knowing whether they actually wanted the float
to be truncated or not. If they do want to truncate, they can pass it to
string themselves, or supply a string literal.
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and why can't all sorts of other types? And that's a huge can
> of worms.
I like Fractions, but I don't think they're important enough for the
average users to require literal notation.
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you can explain a good reason why, say, *this* instance
"CONNECTED" should fail the test, while *that* instance with the same
value passes, it's not a good use-case for "is".
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On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 19:52:45 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 16:00:10 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>>> If we had some other tag, like 'd', we could actually construct a
On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 12:02:03 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> PS On the topic of enums, when are we getting support for a switch
> statement?
http://legacy.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3103/
http://legacy.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0275/
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hing):
...
@case(RED):
def handle_red(something):
...
dispatch[BLUE](something)
There are all sorts of simple and neat ways to handle switches in Python.
That's why the pressure on the language to grow special syntax is quite
low. It simply isn't important enough.
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e table itself:
# instead of this
dispatch[key](node)
# do this
dispatch.get(key, lambda node: float('nan'))(node)
> Which do *you* find more readable?
With proper code layout, the dict-based dispatch table is at least as
readable, and it avoids needing any magic compiler support.
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part from
equality, so why would you bother to change the implementation?
(If this sounds like a mild argument against Enums, I guess it is. After
all, Python worked quite well for 20+ years without Enums. Using strings
as "poor man's enums" works well enough. That's why it to
On Sat, 01 Mar 2014 02:03:51 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano :
>
>> You can't have it both ways: you cannot claim that switch or case is
>> more readable than a chain of if...elif, and then propose a syntax
>> which is effectively a chain of if...
;s an implementation detail.
What we have here is the curse of the singleton design anti-pattern:
http://accu.org/index.php/journals/337
https://molecularmusings.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/singleton-is-an-anti-pattern/
Since the symbols IDLE, CONNECTING etc. don't have state apart from their
name, whether there is one or a million and one instances is irrelevant.
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On Sat, 01 Mar 2014 03:06:38 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano :
>
>> I can only imagine you mean something like this:
>>
>> class Outer:
>> class InnerOne:
>> ...
>>
>> class InnerTwo:
>> ...
>>
On Sat, 01 Mar 2014 13:03:53 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 1, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> However, the example as given won't quite work. You never instantiate
>> the Idle etc. classes, which means the methods won't work. You need
t.
Instead, just refer to the function object itself, without calling it:
object_type_dictonary = {
# no parens after the functions
'LIN' : corrupt_inode,
'INODE' : corrupt_lin,
'DATA' : corrupt_data,
}
Then, after you look up the object type, then and onl
cannot fail.
Still, I've repeatedly asked Marko to justify why we should care about
the symbols being singletons, and unless I've missed something, he hasn't
even attempted to justify that. It seems to me that he's just assuming
that symbols ought to be singletons, hence his focus on identity rather
than equality.
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ly important at the next step, when you
replace the Symbol class with regular strings. If the caller happens to
use "C" rather than ABC.C, why is this a problem?
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On Sat, 01 Mar 2014 20:25:51 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano :
>
>> It seems to me that he's just assuming that symbols ought to be
>> singletons, hence his focus on identity rather than equality.
>
> Yes.
>
> A practical angle is this: i
or performs the check we want,
but over what check we want: do we want an identity test or an equality
test?
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__eq__().
For all *you* know, perhaps, but since os.posix_fadvise is a thin wrapper
around the POSIX C function fadvise, and that is documented as expecting
ints for the advice parameter, that cannot be the case.
Unfortunately Python has not had the money put into it to make it an ISO
standard like Java, and so there are certain areas where the behaviour is
known by common practice but not officially documented. (A bit like
British common law.) That the os module is a thin wrapper around os-
specific services may not be explicitly stated, but it is nevertheless
true.
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here are a class
of threats where you lose your key, or someone steals it, or makes a
copy, but the risks are well-understood and can be managed even by your
grandmother. We have good solutions for those problems that work well,
and many of them apply just as well to sticky notes with secure passwords
written on them.
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On Sun, 02 Mar 2014 13:33:11 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano :
>
>> On Sun, 02 Mar 2014 11:35:43 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>> Now, what kinds of object are those constants? We are not supposed to
>>> know or care.
>>
>> Incorre
rative paradigm (e.g. the import and del
statements), and you can use iterators and generators to program using a
pipelining paradigm.
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g, but it looks like it is an open file object. I think that you
probably expect this:
dumpfile = "path to some file"
tarfile.open(dumpfile + '.tar.gz','w:gz')
but what you actually have is probably something like this:
dumpfile = open("path to some fi
hon script content is to code a simple binary program
> to call it?
I don't understand this question. Can you explain more?
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On Sun, 02 Mar 2014 18:52:40 -0700, Ian Kelly wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 6:16 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> People have managed physical keys for *centuries*. Yes, there are a
>> class of threats where you lose your key, or someone steals it, or
>> makes a
But Simula 67 was the inspiration for Smalltalk, invented
by Alan Kay at Xerox PARC in the 1970s, and Smalltalk used "self".
Virtually everything in OOP that followed was influenced by or derived
from Smalltalk.
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ll, it's
annoying -- it's like having your identity stolen by a hermit on some
mountain top who doesn't do anything with it, except prevent you from
using it.
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an
dynamic typing. But if you have static typing, there's *no point* to it
if the type system cannot detect bugs, and having to declare types is
like having to calculate your own GOTO addresses. With a good type system
like ML or Haskell have, you're not fighting the compiler, *every* typ
o print them on rice paper instead of a sticky note.) The concept is
that writing down strong passwords is preferable to remembering weak
passwords given the typical threats most people are exposed to.
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not. In
> production code, 'is' tests that an object *is* a particular singular
> object, such as None or a sentinel instance of class object. In test
> code, 'is' can also be used to test details of a particular
> implementation, such as pre-allocation of small ints. N
hink of any good reason to treat it as a
value where I would want to use an equality test.
> except
> for the fact that there has been 20 years of custom saying that
> comparing to None with equality is wrong.
It's not *necessarily* wrong, merely wrong the 99.9998% of the time that
you want to treat None as a sentinel.
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cared, you could implement your own None_ish_Type and
create as many named sentinels as you wish.
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instead of multiplication or division.)
If your intention is to treat None as a singleton sentinel, not as a
value, then you ought to use "is" to signal that intention, rather than
using == even if you know that there won't be any false positives.
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On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 05:37:27 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 4:27 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 02:01:47 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>>> This is why it's tricky to put rules in based on type inference. The
bvious pattern.
[1] To be pedantic, written as *two* continued fractions, one ending with
the term 1, and one with one less term which isn't 1. That is:
[a; b, c, d, ..., z, 1] == [a; b, c, d, ..., z+1]
Any *finite* CF ending with one can be simplified to use one fewer term.
Infinit
On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 17:04:55 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 4:35 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 05:37:27 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> x = 23 # Compiler goes: Okay, x takes ints. x += 5 # Compiler: No
>>>
On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 11:56:07 +0100, Antoon Pardon wrote:
> Op 04-03-14 09:56, Steven D'Aprano schreef:
>
>
>>
>>> If you
>>> explicitly say that this is an int, then yes, that should be
>>> disallowed;
>> It's that "explicitly&q
On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 11:10:34 +, Alister wrote:
> Definition of insanity
>
> Doing the same thing over and over again & expecting different results
*rolls dice*
:-)
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;s window's title". Consistent,
> yes, but bad English.
>
> That's why I prefer a programming language not to be too much like a
> natural language. :-)
But the problem with that is not that it is too much like a natural
language, but too little like a natural language.
-
On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 00:01:01 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 10:47 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> Not even close. I'd like to see the compiler that can work out for
>> itself that this function is buggy:
>>
>> def sine_rule(side_a
On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 14:05:44 +, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> Once a statically typed language has been compiled the programmer can
> head down to the pub.
"It compiles? Quick! Ship it!"
Well, that certainly explains the quality of some programs...
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On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 13:30:04 +, BartC wrote:
> "Steven D'Aprano" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> It's that "explicitly" part that doesn't follow. Having to manage types
>> is th
f
> there _is_ a comment, you have to reverse-engineer the code to see of
> the comment is accurate.
http://import-that.dreamwidth.org/956.html
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On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 10:19:22 -0500, Jerry Hill wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 11:52 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> If your intention is to treat None as a singleton sentinel, not as a
>> value, then you ought to use "is" to signal that intention, rather than
On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 02:28:17 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 2:18 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> You don't need to have static typing to have declared variables. The
>> two are independent. E.g. one might have a system like Python, except
-computable numbers
are useful or necessary for anything. They exist as mathematical
abstractions, but they'll never be the result of any calculation or
measurement that anyone might do.
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n you explain what machine representations are leaked into Python by
the is operator?
Do you see this as an accident of implementation, a bug that might be
fixed, or a misfeature that was deliberately designed?
Can you elaborate on why id() is legitimate and "is" is not?
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importance? Mark C-C thinks it's an important difference. Mathematicians
who actually work on this stuff all the time think he's making a semantic
trick to avoid facing up to the fact that sums of infinite sequences
don't always behave like sums of finite sequences.
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of the ways that
Python has gotten faster.) Nevertheless, people did use it for serious
work, at least by the time it got to version 1.4 and quite likely much
earlier.
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Following up on my own post.
On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 07:52:01 +, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 23:25:37 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
>
>> I stopped paying attention to mathematicians when they tried to
>> convince me that the sum of all natural numbers is -1/12.
t the computer industry hasn't discovered
Lisp, it is that they discovered it, gave it a solid workout for 20
years, and then said "Nope, this isn't for us."
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On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 12:21:37 +, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
> On 5 March 2014 07:52, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 23:25:37 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
>>
>>> I stopped paying attention to mathematicians when they tried to
>>> convince me that t
ased on theory which uses the same logic and mathematics that
you are mocking.
Laugh away, but the universe behaves as if the sum of the natural numbers
is -1/12.
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On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 21:47:21 -0800, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 10:36:37 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 19:36:38 -0800, Rustom Mody wrote:
>
>> > Python's 'is' leaks
>> > the machine abst
On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 22:03:36 -0800, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 5, 2014 10:36:37 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 19:36:38 -0800, Rustom Mody wrote:
>
>> > Python's 'is' leaks
>> > the machine abst
flash of
inspiration. It was both designed and evolved through experimentation.
That process of *trying things* and keeping those that work is usually
called "design".
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rushing to Earth to invade to gain possession of that
object;
- it's the weight in metric tonnes of the electrons in the object;
(Not *actual* electrons of course, just these arbitrary inventions
of Marko's definition.)
- it's the length measured in seconds of the b
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