On 2023-10-24, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is
> supposed to do even before all the hardware has been assembled and
> installed and tested?
It depends on what you mean by "verify ...". If you want to prov
maybe the hardware is faulty, etc.
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On 2023-10-24, Dan Purgert via Python-list wrote:
> On 2023-10-24, o1bigtenor wrote:
>> Greetings
>>
>> (Sorry for a nebulous subject but dunno how to have a short title for
>> a complex question.)
>> [...]
>> Is there a way to verify that a program is g
On 10/24/2023 8:22 AM, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
Greetings
(Sorry for a nebulous subject but dunno how to have a short title for
a complex question.)
I have been using computers for a long time but am only beginning my
foray into the
galaxy of programming. Have done little to this
On 2023-10-24, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
> Something less ambitious than a full proof of correctness of an
> arbitrary program can sometimes be achieved. The programming team
> for the Apollo moon mission developed a system which, if you would
> write your requirements
On 2023-10-24, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> So how does one test software then?
That's what customers are for!
[Actually, that's true more often than it should be.]
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On 24/10/2023 22:51, Grant Edwards via Python-list wrote:
>>> Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is
>>> supposed to do even before all the hardware has been assembled and
>>> installed and tested?
> And the specified customer requiremen
On 25/10/2023 00:08, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> So how does one test software then?
Testing is very different to proving!
As an industry we do a lot of testing at many different levels.
On bigger projects you'll find:
- Unit tests - testing small fragments of a bigger
On 10/24/2023 7:15 PM, o1bigtenor wrote:
On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 6:09 PM Thomas Passin via Python-list
wrote:
snip
By now you have read many responses that basically say that you cannot
prove that a given program has no errors, even apart from the hardware
question. Even if it could be
hird party who might be able
to help you with the open-source software.
Unless your project accepts the realities, why start?
-Original Message-----
From: Python-list On
Behalf Of o1bigtenor via Python-list
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2023 7:15 PM
To: Thomas Passin
Cc: [email protected]
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 12:11, Thomas Passin via Python-list
wrote:
> This doesn't mean that no program can ever be proven to halt, nor that
> no program can never be proven correct by formal means. Will your
> program be one of those? The answer may never come ...
Indeed,
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 12:20, AVI GROSS via Python-list
wrote:
> Consider an example of bit rot. I mean what if your CPU or hard disk has a
> location where you can write a byte and read it back multiple times and
> sometimes get the wrong result. To be really cautions, you might
gt; > '953433230'
> >
> > nums.sort(cmp=lambda a,b: cmp(a+b, b+a), reverse=True)
> >
> > But how to do this in python 3?
> >
> > Thank you
> While cmp_to_key is neat doing it by hand should also be instructive.
> Essentially you move the comp
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 13:02, Mike H via Python-list
wrote:
> Is it possible to use lambda expression instead of defining a `Key` class?
> Something like `sorted(my_list, key = lambda x, y: x+y > y+x)`?
Look up functools.cmp_to_key.
ChrisA
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your
source code in the original language, that can open up ways others might
find ways to break it, more so than a compiled program that you only can
read in a more opaque way.
-Original Message-
From: Python-list On
Behalf Of Chris Angelico via Python-list
Sent: Tuesday, October 24
On 10/24/2023 7:37 PM, Grant Edwards via Python-list wrote:
On 2023-10-24, Thomas Passin via Python-list wrote:
Something less ambitious than a full proof of correctness of an
arbitrary program can sometimes be achieved. The programming team
for the Apollo moon mission developed a system
On 2023-10-22 7:35 PM, Dieter Maurer via Python-list wrote:
The web server in Python's runtime library is fairly simple,
focusing only on the HTTP requirements.
You might want additional things for an HTTP server
exposed on the internet which should potentially handle high trafic
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 19:00, Frank Millman via Python-list
wrote:
> 2. Instead of running as a stand-alone server, run my app as a
> reverse-proxy using Nginx. I tested this a few years ago using Apache,
> and it 'just worked', so I am fairly sure that it will work with Ngi
On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 21:46, o1bigtenor wrote:
> > 2. Catch the failure as you save. We have a lot of tools that can help
> > you to spot bugs.
>
> Tools like this for python please.
Various ones. Type checkers like MyPy fall into this category if you
set your system up to
ock, the more efficient, but if there are too many errors you will
lose data. So there's a tradeoff.
ChrisA
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mockup hardware you do not yet have.
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p as a
>reverse-proxy using Nginx. I tested this a few years ago using Apache,
>and it 'just worked', so I am fairly sure that it will work with Nginx
>as well. Nginx can then provide the additional functionality that Dieter
>has mentioned.
Good ideas.
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2023 at 22:46, o1bigtenor via Python-list
wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24 AM Dieter Maurer wrote:
> >
> > o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-24 07:22 -0500:
> > > ...
> > >Is there a way to verify that a program is going to do what it is
>
o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 06:44 -0500:
>On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24?AM Dieter Maurer wrote:
> ...
>> There are different kinds of errors.
>>
>> Some can be avoided by using an integrated development environment
>> (e.g. misspellings, type mismatches, ...).
&g
o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 07:50 -0500:
>> There are several others,
>> e.g. "ECLIPSE" can be used for Python development.
>
>Is 'Eclipse' a Windows oriented IDE?
No.
==> "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_(software)"
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On 2023-10-25, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> Haven't heard of a python IDE - - - doesn't mean that there isn't such - -
> just that I haven't heard of such. Is there a python IDE?
Seriously? Now you're just trolling.
google.com/search?q=python+ide&am
On 10/25/2023 9:21 AM, Thomas Passin wrote:
On 10/25/2023 8:50 AM, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 7:00 AM Dieter Maurer
wrote:
o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 06:44 -0500:
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24?AM Dieter Maurer
wrote:
...
There are different kinds of
o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 08:29 -0500:
> ...
>It would appear that something has changed.
>
>Went to the Eclipse download page, downloaded and verified (using sha-512).
>Expanded software to # opt .
>There is absolutely NO mention of anything python - - - java, c and
that can
interact with the main program to twiddle the knobs and such, and ensure
it's doing what was specified). Alternatively, you have to program your
hardware and test directly on that.
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rsutton wrote:
> Hi all,
> I am fairly new to python (ie < 2 years). I have a question about
> pylint. I am running on windows 10/11, python 3.10.11.
[...]
> if p.returncode >= 8:
> raise Exception(f'Invalid result: {p.returncode}')
>
&g
On 10/25/23 05:51, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> Looks like I have another area to investigate. (grin!)
> Any suggestions?
Seems to me you're trying to run before you have learned to walk.
Slow down, go to the beginning and just learn python, write some code,
see if it runs.
ch software was compiled. Sure, you
could play interactively with the BASIC interpreter, but much else could be
delivered to you as an executable and it was not easy to know what it did
without trying it and certainly it was not easy to make changes to it and
resell it as your own.
Where does pyt
version 0.0.78 was released in 2018.
Tests
-
* Run tests with Python 3.12.
CI
--
* GHActions: Ensure ``pip`` only if needed
This is to work around a problem in conda with Python 3.7 -
it brings in wrong version of ``setuptools`` incompatible with Python 3.7.
For a more complete l
On 25/10/2023 12:44, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
> Haven't heard of a python IDE - - - doesn't mean that there isn't such - -
There are literally dozens with varying degrees of smartness.
The big 4 all have Python plugins/environments:
Eclipse, Netbeans, VisualStudio
On 10/25/2023 8:50 AM, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 7:00 AM Dieter Maurer wrote:
o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 06:44 -0500:
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24?AM Dieter Maurer wrote:
...
There are different kinds of errors.
Some can be avoided by using an
oks quite inelegant. Like I said, I have a lot to learn.
>
>From what you've described of your problem, it seems like a small-ish
utility program you're writing for your own use. You don't need any
`try`...`except` blocks in such code. You just let the exception stop
your program.
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kushal
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On 10/25/2023 9:20 AM, Michael F. Stemper via Python-list wrote:
On 24/10/2023 17.50, Thomas Passin wrote:
The programming team for the Apollo moon mission developed a system
which,> if you would write your requirements in a certain way, could
generate correct
C code for them.
Since
On 10/25/2023 11:49 AM, rsutton via Python-list wrote:
On 10/25/2023 11:06 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
[email protected] (Stefan Ram) writes:
outer quotation marks) prints some prominent exception types. After
manually removing those that do not seem to apply, I am left with:
"Assertion
On 2023-10-25, o1bigtenor wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 7:00 AM Dieter Maurer wrote:
>> [...]
>> There are several others,
>> e.g. "ECLIPSE" can be used for Python development.
>
> Is 'Eclipse' a Windows oriented IDE?
> (Having a hard time f
, 2023, at 7:55 AM, o1bigtenor via Python-list
wrote:
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 7:00AM Dieter Maurer
wrote:
o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 06:44 -0500:
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 6:24?AM Dieter Maurer
wrote:
...
There are different kinds of
. Python already by default supports integers limited only in
size by available memory. This can avoid some of the overflow problems when all
you are allowed is 64 bits but it remains a constraint and a danger as even a
fairly simple algorithm you can PROVE will work, will still fail if your
program
On 10/26/2023 7:50 AM, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 9:10 AM Dieter Maurer wrote:
o1bigtenor wrote at 2023-10-25 08:29 -0500:
...
It would appear that something has changed.
Went to the Eclipse download page, downloaded and verified (using sha-512).
Expanded
Rene Kita wrote:
> rsutton wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> I am fairly new to python (ie < 2 years). I have a question about
>> pylint. I am running on windows 10/11, python 3.10.11.
> [...]
>> if p.returncode >= 8:
>> raise Exception(f&
try to get it working. Failure is always an
option. If I understand you correctly, this is for a hobby interest, so
go at it and have fun.
Stepping through code is a basic part of debugging in any language.
They all have tools for it. Google for python debugging.
"distinct needs for
n may not be possible or easy.
But the MicroPython lists and forums will know more about that than I
do. But there are some nice IDEs for developing code in MicroPython and
deploying it to devices.
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On 10/26/23 03:04, Rene Kita via Python-list wrote:
Rene Kita wrote:
rsutton wrote:
Hi all,
I am fairly new to python (ie < 2 years). I have a question about
pylint. I am running on windows 10/11, python 3.10.11.
[...]
if p.returncode >= 8:
raise Exception(f&#
On 10/26/2023 4:25 PM, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 11:43 AM Michael Torrie via Python-list
wrote:
On 10/26/23 06:34, o1bigtenor wrote:
Interesting - - - - ". . . see if it runs." - - - that's the issue!
When the code is accessing sensors there is
On 2023-10-26, o1bigtenor wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 10:19 AM Michael Torrie via Python-list
> wrote:
>>
>> On 10/25/23 05:51, o1bigtenor via Python-list wrote:
>> > Looks like I have another area to investigate. (grin!)
>> > Any suggestions?
>>
>
I am not one for IDLE worship, Tenor. But if you have been getting a message
here, it is that there are an amazing number of programs that support your use
of python during the development phase and perhaps later. I actually often use
an environment called RSTUDIO (now part of a new name of
On 10/26/2023 6:36 PM, AVI GROSS via Python-list wrote:
I am not one for IDLE worship, Tenor. But if you have been getting a message
here, it is that there are an amazing number of programs that support your use
of python during the development phase and perhaps later. I actually often use
an
can follow what it is doing, presents special
challenges.
Now if he ever wants to read in a .CSV file and analyze the data and make
graphs and so on, I might chime in. For now, I am dropping out.
Avi
-Original Message-
From: Python-list On
Behalf Of Thomas Passin via Python-list
Sent
someone is insisting on being instructed how to
drive a race car in a race when he's only got a learner's permit. You
just have to go through the experience of actually driving on streets
and in traffic first. There is no substitute.
TomP
-Original Message-
From: Python-list
Greg
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Hi,
I have two applications. One uses the system version of Python, which
is 3.6.8, whereas the other uses Python 3.10.8 installed in a non-system
path. For both applications I am using poetry with a pyproject.toml
file which contains the version information and __init__.py at the root
which
"Loris Bennett" writes:
> Hi,
>
> I have two applications. One uses the system version of Python, which
> is 3.6.8, whereas the other uses Python 3.10.8 installed in a non-system
> path. For both applications I am using poetry with a pyproject.toml
> file which cont
"Loris Bennett" writes:
> "Loris Bennett" writes:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have two applications. One uses the system version of Python, which
>> is 3.6.8, whereas the other uses Python 3.10.8 installed in a non-system
>> path. For both appl
Loris Bennett wrote at 2023-10-27 09:29 +0200:
> ...
>For the application with the system Python this mechanism works, but for
>the non-system Python I get the error:
>
> NameError: name '__version__' is not defined
If you get exceptions (they usually end in `Error` (su
PyDev 11.0.2 Release Highlights
Continuing with the updates to Python 3.12, the new release integrates
the latest version of typeshed (so, *from typing import override* is
now properly recognized).
Also, it's now possible to specify vmargs in the python interpreter
(and not just in the l
pened R/W, users of this
module usually must have root permissions.
FILE
/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/smbus.cpython-39-arm-linux-gnueabihf.so
Even a list of available methods would be handy! :-)
Presumably python3's smbus is just a wrapper so if I could find the underlying
-in replacement of smbus". SO you can look
> at its documentation for or use it instead of smbus.
>
> Disclaimer: I haven't any experience on this library
Ah, thank you, I had come across smbus2 but wanted to stay with smbus
if I could as it's in the Debian repositories. However, as you say,
it claims to be a "drop-in replacement of smbus" so the documentation
should be some help at least.
--
Chris Green
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he differences
between smbus and i2c, but nothing very helpful for a poor old
application programmer like me! :-)
--
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t; import smbus
>>>> dir (smbus)
>['SMBus', '__doc__', '__file__', '__loader__', '__name__', '__package__',
> '__spec__']
>>>> help(smbus)
> ...
What does `help(smbus.SMBus`) tell you?
Almost surely, `SMBus` is a class providing the main access methods.
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someone push me in the right direction please? I just want to find out if
a string is a valid email address.
Thank you.
Simon.
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On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 05:21, Simon Connah via Python-list
wrote:
>
> Could someone push me in the right direction please? I just want to find out
> if a string is a valid email address.
There is only one way to know that a string is a valid email address,
and that's to send
On 2023-11-01, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 05:21, Simon Connah via Python-list
> wrote:
>> Could someone push me in the right direction please? I just want to
>> find out if a string is a valid email address.
>
> There is only one way to know that a
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 06:02, Jon Ribbens via Python-list
wrote:
>
> On 2023-11-01, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 05:21, Simon Connah via Python-list
> > wrote:
> >> Could someone push me in the right direction please? I just want to
> >> f
On 11/1/23 05:35, Simon Connah via Python-list wrote:
OK. I've been doing some reading and that you should avoid regex to check email
addresses. So what I was thinking was something like this:
To be a little more specific, Avoid Rolling Your Own RegEx. It's very
tricky, and you w
On 2023-11-01, Mats Wichmann wrote:
> On 11/1/23 05:35, Simon Connah via Python-list wrote:
>> OK. I've been doing some reading and that you should avoid regex to check
>> email addresses. So what I was thinking was something like this:
>
> To be a little more specif
On 2023-11-01, Simon Connah via Python-list wrote:
> I'm building a simple project using smtplib and have a
> question. I've been doing unit testing but I'm not sure how to check
> if an email message is valid.
Send an e-mail using it? If the right person gets the
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 08:09, Grant Edwards via Python-list
wrote:
> Make sure it has an '@' in it. Possibly require at least one '.'
> after the '@'.
No guarantee that there'll be a dot after the at. (Technically there's
no guarantee of an at sig
On 2023-11-01, Chris Angelico via Python-list wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 08:09, Grant Edwards via Python-list
> wrote:
>> Make sure it has an '@' in it. Possibly require at least one '.'
>> after the '@'.
>
> No guarantee that there&#x
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 08:52, Grant Edwards via Python-list
wrote:
>
> On 2023-11-01, Chris Angelico via Python-list wrote:
> > On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 08:09, Grant Edwards via Python-list
> > wrote:
>
> >> Make sure it has an '@' in it. Possibly
On 11/1/23 04:09, Simon Connah via Python-list wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm building a simple project using smtplib and have a question. I've been
> doing unit testing but I'm not sure how to check if an email message is
> valid. Using regex sounds like a bad idea to me
On 01Nov2023 14:08, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2023-11-01, Simon Connah via Python-list wrote:
I'm building a simple project using smtplib and have a
question. I've been doing unit testing but I'm not sure how to check
if an email message is valid.
[...]
Could someone push
On 2023-11-01 17:17, Chris Angelico via Python-list wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 08:09, Grant Edwards via Python-list
wrote:
Make sure it has an '@' in it. Possibly require at least one '.'
after the '@'.
No guarantee that there'll be a dot after the at. (
See https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9585?page=0,0
On 01/11/2023 17:09, Simon Connah via Python-list wrote:
Hi,
I'm building a simple project using smtplib and have a question. I've been
doing unit testing but I'm not sure how to check if an email message is valid.
Usi
universities that were densely
connected to others got lots of traffic. In that scenario, validity had
another meaning.
-Original Message-
From: Python-list On
Behalf Of D'Arcy Cain via Python-list
Sent: Wednesday, November 1, 2023 9:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Checking if
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 15:20, AVI GROSS via Python-list
wrote:
>
> Yes, it would be nice if there was a syntax for sending a test message sort
> of like an ACK that is not delivered to the recipient but merely results in
> some status being sent back such as DELIVERABLE or NO SUCH
>
> On 2023-11-01, Simon Connah via Python-list [email protected] wrote:
>
> > I'm building a simple project using smtplib and have a
> > question. I've been doing unit testing but I'm not sure how to check
> > if an email message is valid.
>
On 02Nov2023 17:04, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 15:20, AVI GROSS via Python-list
wrote:
Yes, it would be nice if there was a syntax for sending a test
message sort
of like an ACK that is not delivered to the recipient but merely results in
some status being sent back such as
>
>
> On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 05:21, Simon Connah via Python-list
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Could someone push me in the right direction please? I just want to find
> > out if a string is a valid email address.
>
>
> There is only one way to
>
> On 2023-11-01, Chris Angelico [email protected] wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 05:21, Simon Connah via Python-list
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >
> > > Could someone push me in the right direction please? I just want to
> > >
mail has to be in
> order to be bounced. If it was completely wrong it might just swallowed up.
>
Every address is completely separate. There is no "closeness". Just
send email to an address.
ChrisA
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On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 17:47, Cameron Simpson via Python-list
wrote:
>
> On 02Nov2023 17:04, Chris Angelico wrote:
> >On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 15:20, AVI GROSS via Python-list
> > wrote:
> >> Yes, it would be nice if there was a syntax for sending a test
> >> mess
>
>
> See https://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9585?page=0,0
>
That looks painful to maintain!
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Thursday, November 02, 2023 at 6:46, Simon Connah via Python-list wrote:
Re: Checking if email is valid (at least in part)
>My goal is to make a simple mailing list platform. I guess I could just send
>email to an address and if it bounces then I can remove it from the database.
That fu
,
> =dn
I'm not sure that would be practical. As I'm setting up a mailing list server I
don't know if someone in the future is going to need to use one of those
aliases and testing manually would be tedious.
Simon.
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On 2023-11-02, D'Arcy Cain wrote:
> On 2023-11-01 17:17, Chris Angelico via Python-list wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 08:09, Grant Edwards via Python-list
>> wrote:
>>> Make sure it has an '@' in it. Possibly require at least one '.'
>>
Chris Angelico writes:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 15:20, AVI GROSS via Python-list
wrote:
> Yes, it would be nice if there was a syntax for sending a test
> message sort of like an ACK that is not delivered to the recipient
> but merely results in some status being sent bac
On 2023-11-02, dn wrote:
> On 02/11/2023 19.46, Simon Connah via Python-list wrote:
>> [...]
>> My goal is to make a simple mailing list platform. I guess I could
>> just send email to an address and if it bounces then I can remove it
>> from the database. Thing is I
I have a couple of systems which used to have python2 as well as
python3 but as Ubuntu and Debian verions have moved on they have
finally eliminated all dependencies on python2.
So they now have only python3 and there is no python executable in
PATH.
There's still both /usr/bin/pip and /us
On 2023-11-02 02:04, Chris Angelico via Python-list wrote:
On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 15:20, AVI GROSS via Python-list
wrote:
Yes, it would be nice if there was a syntax for sending a test message sort
of like an ACK that is not delivered to the recipient but merely results in
some status being
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Yes, Chris, many things can be used for lesser purposes.
Perhaps this could be like when people automate guessing passwords and one
defense is to stop accepting after N bad guesses till some external method
resets things.
-Original Message-
From: Python-list On
Behalf Of Chris Angelico
consistency. A new package version
may be incompatible to a previous one -- and with other
package you have installed.
I do not think that you would want to auto-upgrade all installed
packages.
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Hello,
I would like to develop Mobile Applications using the Kivy Python Framework
but I am having difficulty and these are the errors I am finding "
C:\WINDOWS\system32>python3 --version Python was not found; run without
arguments to install from the Microsoft Store, or disable this
On 2023-11-02 00:18, AVI GROSS via Python-list wrote:
Yes, it would be nice if there was a syntax for sending a test message sort
of like an ACK that is not delivered to the recipient but merely results in
some status being sent back such as DELIVERABLE or NO SUCH USER or even
MAILBOX FULL.
It
ot;home\""@ (Chris's host.)public.example
for example? And would you be able to do anything with it if you did?
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if the new
version of bar was 2.0.0 then "pip list -o" will list it, but you should
not upgrade to it.)
You can do "pip install -I foo", which will pointlessly reinstall foo
and then presumably upgrade bar as well, thus probably getting to the
right result via a rather roundabout route, but I'm not sure if that
does indeed work properly and if it is a reliable and recommended way
of doing things.
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