explicit decisions leading to public API changes (probably the process
of finishing off the limited API validation could include this task
fairly easily as well).
Cheers,
Steve
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ntered uncertainty
about what other methods are actually working, I don't want to link to
any of them :)
Cheers,
Steve
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ribute the result, you should read
the instructions in the batch file and make the modifications it suggests
(basically, there's a URI used to generate GUIDs, and also registry keys for
PEP 514 and self-locating). Please don't distribute an installer that conflicts
with the official o
has a concern we haven't thought of.
Cheers,
Steve
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on the 3.7 change. I'll let you file the bugs.
Cheers,
Steve
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n't troubled by correspondence on that
topic.
I applaud your efforts to build a Python community from the ground up, and
wish your efforts every success. I imagine there are other developers who
feel similarly.
regards
Steve
Steve Holden
On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 8:59 PM, Victor Njunu wrote:
> D
On 23May2017 1212, Victor Stinner wrote:
2017-05-22 13:17 GMT-05:00 Steve Dower :
Once the special protection is removed, most of these cases will become
OSError due to the general protection against segmentation faults.
It didn't know that ctypes on Windows had a special protection ag
1] offering platform-specific certificate validation as the
default in 2.7 is far more palatable than backporting new public API.
I can't speak to whether there is an equivalent function for Mac
(validate a certificate chain given the cert blob).
Cheers,
Steve
[1]: though I've now spent
nSSL
urlretrieve()" function with fully custom configuration? Even if only to
bootstrap something that *can* merge two entirely different
configuration systems?
Cheers,
Steve
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MemoryBIO backport could be pure-Python.
It doesn't help the other *ythons, but unless they have MemoryBIO
implementations ready to backport then I can't think of anything that
will help them short of a completely new API.
Cheers,
Steve
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then code objects. That
might be the best one, if you can locate the type object in the dump.
Hope that helps,
Steve
Top-posted from my Windows phone
From: CompuTinker
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2017 13:26
To: python-dev@python.org
Subject: [Python-Dev] Extracting python bytecode from a linux core
lem that prevents it
being possible normally.
Cheers,
Steve
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we're stuck on "building the thing
right" and have skipped over "building the right thing". But maybe it's
just me...
Cheers,
Steve
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Agreed, that’s good reasoning. Thanks for short-circuiting the discussion!
Cheers,
Steve
Top-posted from my Windows phone
From: Benjamin Peterson
Sent: Friday, June 9, 2017 16:59
To: python-dev@python.org
Subject: [Python-Dev] On "PEP 546 — Backport ssl.MemoryBIO and ssl.SSLObject to
P
et and read the documentation there for
> installing buildbot.
>
I've added a note to the Wiki page informing readers of the preferred
link. S
Steve Holden
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: Victor Stinner
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:27
To: Python Dev; Steve Dower
Subject: test_sax and test_random fail on Python 3.6.2rc1 on Windows
Hi,
The end-of-line hell is not over, test_sax and test_random tests are
still failing if you install Python 3.6.2rc1 on Windows:
http
I’ll clean it up and try again to see if it repros or was a
random occurrence.
Top-posted from my Windows phone
From: Victor Stinner
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:23
To: Steve Dower
Cc: Python Dev
Subject: Re: test_sax and test_random fail on Python 3.6.2rc1 on Windows
2017-06-21 16:10 GMT+02
On 21Jun2017 0736, Victor Stinner wrote:
Thank you Steve for looking at this issue and to work on our Windows
installer :-)
No worries.
So we didn't ship 3.6.2rc1 with LF line endings instead of CRLF - those
are fine. These issues are due to .gitattributes changing for test data
files
like a
“throw it all out” problem to me.
Cheers,
Steve
Top-posted from my Windows phone
From: Terry Reedy
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 11:44
To: python-dev@python.org
Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Appveyor builds fail on Windows for 3.6 backports.
On 6/23/2017 2:24 PM, Zachary Ware wrote:
> On
One quick heads up – the NEWS file is included in the docs build (if not in the
html docs, certainly in the CHM for Windows releases). You may have to do some
extra work to keep that from breaking when you remove it. We might also include
it as plain text in the installers, I forget right now.
approach, though I am struck by the similarities. I think it’s also a good
presentation on the value and use of metaclasses, so likely also interesting
for those of us who occasionally teach or explain the concept.
Cheers,
Steve
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would be great if
possible. I'd be concerned about it becoming a hard requirement though -
I much prefer to leave the final decision in the hands of trusted people
and provide them enough information to make a good decision.
Cheers,
Steve
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On 29Jun2017 1157, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 6/29/2017 1:54 PM, Steve Dower wrote:
Some warnings are also complicated because of the nature of CPython.
For example, the socket module exposes deprecated CRT functions (on
Windows) directly because the API of the socket module promises to
provide
adequate justification for breaking public APIs that
> have been around for years."
My only question is "what's a variable called _source doing in the public
API?"
regards
Steve
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Makes sense. Thanks. S
Steve Holden
On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 4:29 PM, Raymond Hettinger <
raymond.hettin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 17, 2017, at 8:22 AM, Steve Holden wrote:
> >
> > My only question is "what's a variable called _source doing in the
,
Steve
Top-posted from my Windows phone
From: Alex Walters
Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2017 1:39
Cc: 'Python-Dev'
Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Python startup time
> -Original Message-
> From: Python-Dev [mailto:python-dev-bounces+tritium-
> list=sdamon@python.org] On B
for NTFS to
amortize calls better. Perhaps not, but it is still the most expensive part of
startup that we have any ability to change, so it’s worth investigating.
Cheers,
Steve
Top-posted from my Windows phone
From: Brett Cannon
Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2017 10:18
To: Steve Dower; Alex Walters
your case by not using it :)
Hope that helps,
Steve
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63c, Aug 8 2017, 15:56:14)
[MSC v.1900 64 bit (AMD64)]'
Hopefully this is valuable for people who want to include daily builds
in their own test runs or validate recent bug fixes.
Cheers,
Steve
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http
able that code
path, but it has some subtle issues that were causing test failures, so
we abandoned all the attempts. Though ISTR that someone put in more
effort than most of us, but I don't think we've merged it (and if we
have, it'd only be in
On 08Aug2017 1512, Nathaniel Smith wrote:
On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Steve Dower wrote:
On 08Aug2017 1151, Nathaniel Smith wrote:
It looks like Thread.join ultimately ends up blocking in
Python/thread_nt.h:EnterNonRecursiveMutex, which has a maze of #ifdefs
behind it -- I think there
(these are still associated with my personal and completely unverified
key, which is fine since nobody on Windows actually cares about GPG :) ).
Cheers,
Steve
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will update at some point, but is a little behind
the version in the repo.)
Cheers,
Steve
-
PEP: 551
Title: Security transparency in the Python runtime
Version: $Revision$
Last-Modified: $Date$
Author: Steve Dower
Dis
On 28Aug2017 1815, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Very nicely written. A few comments below.
On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 04:55:19PM -0700, Steve Dower wrote:
[...]
This PEP describes additions to the Python API and specific behaviors
for the
CPython implementation that make actions taken by the P
you think any of these explanations deserve to be in the PEP text
itself, please let me know so I can add it in. Or if you don't like
them, let me know that too and I'll try again!)
Cheers,
Steve
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On 28Aug2017 1926, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 12:23 PM, Steve Dower wrote:
Check your line lengths, I think they may be too long? (Or maybe my mail
client is set too short?)
Yeah, not sure what's happened here. Are PEPs supposed to be 80? Or 72?
According to the
ke the time
to investigate them, they don't contribute to it in any way. None of
these things will be added to or required by the core CPython release.
Cheers,
Steve
Many Linux packaging formats do have checksums of all files in a
package: {RPM, DEB,}
Python Wheel packages do have a manif
On 29Aug2017 0801, Steve Dower wrote:
On 29Aug2017 0614, Wes Turner wrote:
Wouldn't it be great to have the resources to source audit all code?
(And expect everyone to GPG sign all their commits someday.)
If you care this much, then you will find the resources to audit all the
code man
a lot of time arguing against those that I believe will not.
Cheers,
Steve
On 10/15/2021 3:08 AM, Doug Swarin wrote:
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Hello Doug,
On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 03:45:07PM -, Doug Swarin wrote:
I believe strong and valid arguments can be made about the use of None
ed to a rich DBModel subclass that *knows* it is empty.
---
So to summarise my core concern - allowing an API designer to "just use
None" is a cop out, and it lets people write lazy/bad APIs rather than
coming up with good ones.
Cheers,
Steve
Over at
https://discuss.python.org/t/towards-standardizing-cross-compiling/10357/ about
the *only* thing we could agree on is needing a static, cross-platform
way to read config values from a Python build (essentially "python -m
sysconfig" without being able to run Pyth
pproach to
asynchronous networking, but I think it's safe to say that world has moved
on in 20 years.
Kind regards,
Steve
On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 6:13 AM Kyle Stanley wrote:
> I think it would be fine to wait just one release, until 3.12. Makes no
> substantial maintenance difference and m
e and the
design or programming languages. It's interesting that the egalitarian wish
to allow use of native "alphabetics" has turned out to be such a viper's
nest.
Particular thanks to Stephen J. Turnbull for his thoughtful and
well-informed contribution above.
Kind regards,
ic discourse on the topics. And this kind of reiteration is easier
when our official documents (PEPs, etc.) state it explicitly.
Cheers,
Steve
[1]: Okay, I will call out the Python Bytes podcast - which I've been on
a couple of times - as one that regularly opines on topics based on very
l
grams and libraries being annotated, in exchange
for being much lighter on memory use and preprocessing. But it should
stay out of your way on unannotated code if you haven't enabled its more
strict modes.
Cheers,
Steve
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On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 5:05 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 02:30:18PM +, Paul Moore wrote:
> [...]
> Aside: I'm a little disappointed in the way the typing ecosystem has
> developed. What I understood was that we'd get type inference like ML or
> Haskell use, so we would
all means, use this tool for checking stuff. But it's not a
substitute for justifying every incompatible change in its own right.
/rant
Cheers,
Steve
On 12/2/2021 11:44 PM, Victor Stinner wrote:
Hi,
I wrote two scripts based on the work of INADA-san's work to (1)
download the so
age during beta for it to be worthwhile, though we
still have the problem of knock-on effects (where e.g. until NumPy
works, nothing that depends on it can even begin testing).
Cheers,
Steve
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On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 6:24 PM Guido van Rossum wrote:
> I personally think F-strings should not be usable as docstrings. If you
> want a dynamically calculated docstring you should assign it dynamically,
> not smuggle it in using a string-like expression. We don't allow "blah {x}
> blah".format
ler but it's the linker that does most of the
optimisation. Attaching to a running process is what I normally do.
Cheers,
Steve
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https://ma
rd with the changes, or we admit we don't really need them. With
this amount of time before the release, we can't blame downstream users
for reverting it.
Cheers,
Steve
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There's no
reliable way to detect what's displaying console output, and while many
now support ANSI colours, we can't be assured of it.
Omitting the line of ^ where over x% (75%? 90%?) of characters on the
line would be marked would be fi
to manage it okay. I can't remember the last compat issue I
had there that wasn't on our (C-API) side.
Thoughts?
Cheers,
Steve
On 1/28/2022 4:50 PM, Victor Stinner wrote:
Wait, where is the HPy project in that plan? :-) The HPy project
(brand new C API) is a good solution for the long t
On 1/28/2022 5:15 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
On Jan 28, 2022, at 09:00, Steve Dower wrote:
Does HPy have any clear guidance or assistance for their users to keep it up to
date?
I'm concerned that if we simply substitute "support the C API for everyone" with
"support
orm-specific tags in extension modules. These do not support
combining tags as in wheels (and unfortunately do not match wheel tags
at all), but do allow you to have version/platform-specific
.pyd/.dylib/.so files in a single wheel. Again, it's just that none of
the current b
ct then we aren't on
the hook for the allocations.
Cheers,
Steve
[1]: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20160615-00/?p=93675
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ps I'll put something together that does what I'd like and give
us concrete things to discuss.
(Is there a requirement that an Id only contain ASCII characters (i.e.,
7-bit)?)
I don't think it's unreasonable to require that for these inter
On 2/5/2022 4:09 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
On Sat, Feb 5, 2022 at 5:18 AM Steve Dower <mailto:steve.do...@python.org>> wrote:
The gap this has with what I'd like to see is that it will only work
for
compile-time strings. If instead it could work for an arb
e last
30+ years is eventually going to be found to be exploitable. I'd be
quite happy to say "Python gives you what your OS gives you; update the
OS for fixes".
Cheers,
Steve
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ing a brand new language for it. The more
"it's-only-Python-if-it-has-X" restrictions we have, the less appealing
we become.
Cheers,
Steve
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x27;s
the compiler features that seem to have less coverage.
Cheers,
Steve
[1]:
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/cppblog/c11-and-c17-standard-support-arriving-in-msvc/
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ns about the
VS version for building CPython due to how the wiki and devguide mention
it).
I'm just trying to make sure we don't add more of these, by ensuring
that we properly scope things. In this case *CPython requires IEEE 754
flo
r bugs are fixed. If
we're going to specify anything about MSVC, I'd prefer it was the v142
label rather than the Visual Studio version (though we can include the
latter as a convenience for the reader, and hopefully clearly enough
that people stop filing bug reports about it
We're still working on it. Hopefully it will be today, but we have had
other issues arise that have delayed things by a few days (including new
critical OpenSSL fixes that were just released yesterday).
Cheers,
Steve
On 15Mar2022 1743, Prasad, PCRaghavendra wrote:
Hi Team,
Can so
ome a language-wide backwards
compatibility break, even if it perhaps would've been better to have had
the restriction from the start.
Cheers,
Steve
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default because of reliability, but that was a few
years back so maybe they fixed it. So it's likely only being used by the
project that requested it, though I don't think that's enough to justify
skipping normal deprecation.
Cheers,
Steve
_
On 3/22/2022 11:28 PM, Victor Stinner wrote:
On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 7:33 PM Steve Dower wrote:
After a normal deprecation period, yes?
There is no backward compatibility warranty and no deprecation process
for private APIs.
And yet you're asking the question, which means you know
Time for a __legacy__ package?
Kind regards,
Steve
On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 7:06 PM Paul Moore wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 at 17:11, Christopher Barker
> wrote:
> >
> > With the json package included, all they need to do is `import json`. If
> that wasn't there,
ot even care that the batteries just came in the same
package and aren't actually an integral part of the core product.
Cheers,
Steve
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On 3/28/2022 7:26 PM, Paul Moore wrote:
To be honest, I feel like I'm just reiterating stuff I've said before
here, and I think the same is true of the points I'm responding to. Is
there actually any new development here, or is it just a repeat of the
same positions people have expressed in the p
want to state explicit support for either keeping the
APIs public and slightly-flexible, or making them internal but stable.
(Public and stable won't work at all for us, and normal internal won't
work at all for you.)
Cheers,
Steve
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ould
urlparse("http://[::1]spam:80";) raise? - I have literally no idea :) ),
but feel free to nosy me on issues you think you've figured out and I
can help confirm your logic and do merges. Or if another core dev has
been helping you, keep nosying them.
Cheers,
Steve
On 30Mar2022 1132, Baptiste Carvello wrote:
Le 28/03/2022 à 18:44, Steve Dower a écrit :
I think to most people "batteries included" doesn't necessarily mean
"standard library," with all that implies. It just means "it came with
the first thing that I instal
tic linking of the Python DLL. Easy enough
things to work around, but they probably need to be explicitly
documented as well if we're going to document public APIs as requiring
Py_BUILD_CORE (and I don't want to have to document that kind of stuff).
Cheers,
Steve
__
them well.
Kind regards,
Steve
On Wed, Mar 30, 2022 at 5:24 PM Christopher Barker
wrote:
> > I personally would love for a typing.python.org or equivalent
> subsection of docs.python.org to exist.
>
> +1
>
> There’s a wrinkle here, however. The type specs are Python, bu
ld help to have outside perspective on this potential change.)
Cheers,
Steve
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Mess
change it was an important compromise.)
There are plenty of other things in this same category, and because we
want to keep things as stable as possible while also improving
performance and reliability, we have to keep pretty tight limits on what
we promise will remain stable.
On 02Apr2022 0925, Paul Moore wrote:
On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 at 02:30, Christopher Barker wrote:
On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 4:06 AM Steve Dower wrote:
The main difference is that 'immutables' offers you a stable/versioned
interface to use it, while the one that's in CPython
ators are redundant in the second example, and without them (thanks to
the parentheses) the literals will be concatenated at compile time. I often
use
(code of some sort)'''\
SELECT foo
FROM bar
WHERE baz = %s"""
to ensure the multiline string literal is correctly alig
On 4/5/2022 11:52 PM, Victor Stinner wrote:
On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 12:36 PM Steve Dower wrote:
I don't see any additional discussion on the bug, and the prevailing
opinion from actual users of this API is that it probably shouldn't
change,
From what I understood my change basi
7;t need the runtime to do anything differently if the module
isn't really going to be used at that point.
Cheers,
Steve
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https
On 4/8/2022 12:51 PM, Daniel Pope wrote:
On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 at 12:23, Steve Dower wrote:
I've read the rest of the thread so far, and agree strongly that we
can't do this at the language/runtime level.
You mean the hoisting, right?
I don't see any reason why an import exp
he biggest issue I see is that the obvious command line options for
"import site" are already used to imply "do not import site". But then,
-P isn't obvious either. Maybe an -X option would suffice?
Cheers,
Steve
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there. Then the test suite can check whether it was built or not.
Cheers,
Steve
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seful enough, but it could also serve as a deprecation
warning without necessarily putting a timeline on it (and also as
advertising for the new option).
Cheers,
Steve
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ly on their copy being the "main" one.
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Message arc
scattered around PC, PCbuild and Tools/msi. Easier to just remove it
from Lib.
Cheers,
Steve
On 5/10/2022 9:24 PM, Victor Stinner wrote:
On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 6:16 PM Steve Dower wrote:
I agree. The internal tools that use it are all in our Tools directory,
so we can move distutils there and
s or tools. There's nothing wrong with
setuptools's functionality, merely the fact that it isn't part of the
CPython repository and we don't like relying on third-party repositories
for a CPython build/test.
Cheers,
Steve
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On 5/14/2022 8:37 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 5/14/2022 12:40 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
Probably "Edit with IDLE" should be changed. I have no idea where that
is defined.
I presume somewhere in PCBuild. Steve Dower knows and is in charge of
the Windows installer.
FTR, the beh
rsions, or
having to set them before knowing what version is being used, seems more
complicated.
Cheers,
Steve
On 5/30/2022 8:26 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
We discussed having leading underscores for this API tier, and it was decided
that a leading underscore was preferred.
This did start a
ge specification" from
"Typing specification" would be helpful. (Packaging is already separate,
but doesn't appear in release announcements anyway.)
Cheers,
Steve
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you might also be able to use
PYTHONPYCACHEPREFIX to reference a local directory and avoid issues that
way.
Cheers,
Steve
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I don't remember it being mentioned, but much of the traffic recently
migrated from this list to https://discuss.python.org/c/core-dev/23, which
you may wish to keep in touch with.
Kind regards,
Steve
On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 7:53 AM Juan Cristóbal Quesada <
rainonthescarecrow
'll work for you, that's great. Nobody else should ever
think they're doing the "right thing".
Cheers,
Steve
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h
#x27;ve missed your point?
Kind regards,
Steve
On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 4:15 PM wrote:
> Hello folks, I am Chihiro, a.k.a. Frodo821, and this is my first post to
> this group.
>
> I searched for a way to annotate both class variables and instance
> variables with different types and
it
pieces (such as the headers and libs files), but the embeddable package
is one you can include straight into your project and redistribute. The
binaries are the same, it's just laid out differently.
And yes, discuss.python.org is the best place to ask these days.
days. You'll likely find more help and
discussion over there.
Cheers,
Steve
On 3/13/2023 3:25 PM, Rokas Kupstys wrote:
Hello!
I am dropping this mail to bring up an issue which cost me three good
evenings of time. Now that i figured it out i believe it is quite a
serious usability pro
.c right now (for py.exe).
Native debuggers usually hook process creation, so they should attach
immediately with no risk of missing anything.
Cheers,
Steve
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at you are
managing to approach the same level of performance!
Kind regards,
Steve
On Wed, 2 Aug 2023 at 18:26, Christian Tismer-Sperling
wrote:
> On 02.08.23 18:30, Paul Moore wrote:
> > On Wed, 2 Aug 2023 at 15:24, Stephen J. Turnbull
> > > <mailto:turnbull.stephen...@u.
Sounds like you might want the "Python Help" group on https;//
discuss.python.org - the dev conversation migrated there quite a while ago
now, so thighs channel is more or less announcements only.
Good luck with your project!
Kind regards,
Steve
On Thu, 5 Oct 2023 at 16:07, Guent
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