pletely controlled from
> the master side, and then uploading the resulting dmg file. I'd be
> happy to help coordinate any experiments offline if you're interested.
>
> I do currently have a DMG built for 2.7 Beta 1, if it would be useful.
>
t and
> convenient for 40%, would you remove it? Really?
> IMO, removal of a feature which is used by 40% is out of the question;
> and if removal is, deprecation is as well.
>
> Back to the actual numbers: dropping the argument is impossibl
> |
> | Both are ok for me. "-v" as a shortcut for "--version" looks wrong, though.
> | "-v" is almost always used for verbosity these days.
>
> My view is the same.
I don't expect -v to be one or the other, and I certainly don't expect
th
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> Le Fri, 16 Apr 2010 08:01:54 -0500, Brian Curtin a écrit :
>> The recent threads on builds/installers for Mac and Windows reminded me
>> of Steve Holden's push to get the python-dev team equipped via a
>> connection with the Microsoft Open Source T
Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Apr 19, 2010, at 08:14 AM, Brian Curtin wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 06:48, Steve Holden wrote:
>>
>>> Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>>>> Le Fri, 16 Apr 2010 08:01:54 -0500, Brian Curtin a écrit :
>>>>> The recent thr
ing the barriers of entry is a desirable goal.
If adding people created work for already-busy developers then I'd be
against it*, but with Sean offering to mentor his new protege and ensure
that he limits his role to triage initially that doesn't seem to be an
issue.
Maybe it's ti
ody will have to make a decision, and that
> is "work".
>
Well, I'm sorry to have put you to the work of penning that reply, when
you could have used the effort instead to triage a bug.
regards
Steve
--
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See PyCon Talk
omething you write in
a statement.
Some of the comments in this thread have seemed positively unwelcoming,
even though I doubt that was the authors' intention.
regards
Steve
--
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See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010 ht
R. David Murray wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 14:15:01 -0400, Steve Holden wrote:
[...]
> For the record, note that both Antoine and I have been instrumental in
> bringing more than one new person into both the triage and the committer
> ranks. We (along with others) *are* the on
body would make an decision ultimately, one which both proponents
> and opponents of the PEP would accept.
>
> Without a BDFL, I think we need a committee to make decisions, e.g. by
> majority vote amongst committers.
Couldn't we just go with the FLUFL?
regards
Steve
--
Steve Ho
back now). As a starting point, Barry would have to indicate whether he
> is interested in that role.
>
If he isn't then we can depose him and replace him with a puppet.
regards
Steve
PS: Barry: sorry I can't make the gig tonight. Hope it went well ...
--
Steve Holden
ughout the civilized world.
>
The last time I was in a UK builders' yard I hear someone asking for
"two meter pieces of two by four". At the time the UK was notionally
metric (and the timber was planed to the nearest metric size) but the
old names still survived.
regards
lease. There's plenty to do
without having to fight that issue too.
I'm copying this message to Rich Leland, who is currently making a study
of the PSF's web requirements, to make sure this gets folded in. Many of
the tasks are essentially macrogeneration, and unless automated will
r
rdize all C files on a 4-spaces
> indentation rule?
>
> I understand the "svn annotate" argument, but we edit code far more often
> than we annotate it. Also, it seems "svn ann -x -w" would ignore
> whitespace changes.
>
Let's not forget to consider what Hg
operator.add)
>> p2 = p1
>
> I thought the OP gave a use-case. He's generating "jobs" (partial
> applied to a callable and arguments), and wanted to avoid duplicated
> jobs.
>
> I think it is reasonable to expect that partial(operator.add, 2)
> compares equa
n Java and
> C++ and (at least in Java) it is used extensively and without too much
> trouble. If there are implementation bugs then we can fix them just like
> we would with any other module.
>
I don't see the availability of this functionality in those languages as
any kind of rea
Jesse Noller wrote:
> On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 7:52 AM, Steve Holden wrote:
> ...snip...
>
>>>> Issues like the ones I'm bringing up could be fixed pretty
>>>> straightforwardly if it were just a matter of filing a bug on a small
>>>> package,
org which would break backward compatibility. IMO it would make
> more
> sense to leave this module as a top-level module for now (a sibling to
> "threading", "multiprocessing").
>
Unless there's some way of having the two namespaces (existing and
concurrent
ys seems to happen when the rule is broken;
2) But we may wish to release 3.1.2.1(?) which backports fixes from the
3.2 line but retains the file store semantics (which I am assured will
be easy in the glorious reign of Hg).
Surely some compatible "shim" layer could have been intro
ypothetical 2.8 development team.
>
How does throwing away information represent "moving forward"?
I have to say I am surprised by the current lack of momentum behind 3.x,
but I do know users who consider that their current investment in the
2.x series is unlikely to migrate to 3
dev community, anybody else except
R. David Murray) haven't really come to grips with intractable problems
like the broken state of the email package, and we are not doing well at
attracting funds to support it.
So I think we need to address a larger issue than just the language. As
a deve
Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 6/9/2010 10:42 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>
>>> Steve Holden wrote
>>>> How does throwing away information represent "moving forward"?
>
> 'Closing' a tracker issue does not 'throw away' information', it *a
e all that pent up energy focussed on doing whatever we can to help
> people transition to Python 3.
>
Though one might ironically suggest that sticking to the policy actually
represents a change in policy :)
regards
Steve
--
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See Pyt
ibrary support, and they are the guys who see the
issues day in day out so it is hard to argue with them (and I don't
think an autocratic decision-making process would be appropriate).
regards
Steve
--
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See Python Video! http://python.
channel is just
> a signpost pointing at an empty room.
>
Which is yet another reason I don't think it would be productive to
attempt any kind of pre-emptive action against the #python team. They do
serve a very useful purpose, and there is reasoned logic behind their
position even if we mig
and would
like to tap your developer creativity in helping to define how the
Foundation can effectively commit more developer time to Python.
GSoC and GHOP are great examples, but there is plenty of room for all
sorts of initiatives that result in development opportunities. I'd like
to hel
atter as the
> other thing.
>
>
> Thanks again for everyone's input on all of python-dev, #python,
> #python-offtopic,
> Laurens
>
And thanks for engaging so directly and responsively. The Python
community has impressed me again with its maturity.
regards
ly need to make this move.
>
> I agree we have to make it at some point but I feel this is way, way too
> early.
>
> thanks for your continued input,
> Laurens
But it's never too early to plan for something you know to be
inevitable. More planning might have helped ear
a
problem - they could probably be done at a gross level).
regards
Steve
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Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:http://holde
ake a major
step forward. This won't be a campaign with a victorious charge over
some imaginary finish line.
regards
Steve
--
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Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.
Stephen Thorne wrote:
> On 2010-06-25, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:
>> Am 25.06.2010 01:28, schrieb Stephen Thorne:
>>> Steve Holden Wrote:
>>>> Given the amount of interest this thread has generated I can't help
>>>> wondering why it isn'
nal list (not copies of those objects). A deep copy
would need to copy any referenced lists, and so on.
> Can this be updated? Or someone explain to me why it's correct?
>
It sounds correct to me.
regards
Steve
> Cheers
>
> Example:
>
>
>>>> t = [1, 2, 3]
>&g
2 due out?
regards
Steve
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UPCOMING EVENTS:http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/
"All I want for my birthday is anothe
to actually be a performance issue, you
> can always deal with it later, with a custom string type." I'm
> confident that in *most* cases, it would not be.
>
Well that would be a nice win.
> Anyway, this may be a serious issue, but I increasingly feel like I'm
> veeri
thon.
>
> No no no. [...]
It isn't always easy to tell, but I think Martin meant "no".
regards
Steve
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Holden Web LLC htt
work for me. If schedule slips in any way, we'll have
> to move the release into end-of-September (but the days as proposed are
> fine).
>
> Regards,
> Martin
A six-week slippage wouldn't be good. What's the relevant chaos theory
when a one- or two-day hold lead
to what version
>> to download.
>
> Ah, ok. No, nobody has taken ownership of that project, and likely,
> nobody actually will - unless you volunteer.
>
Or perhaps spur the pydotorg community on with some well-placed
encouragement. Nobody ever seems to say "thanks" to t
gt; thing later if that works better for you. OTOH, I can't go much earlier so
>> if
>> September is bad for you, then we'll stick to the above dates.
>
> I think we can strive for your original proposal. If it slips, we let it
> slip by a month or two.
>
>
Nick Coghlan wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Benjamin Peterson
> wrote:
>> 2010/6/25 Steve Holden :
>> I would call it more a sign of no tests rather than one of neglect and
>> perhaps also an indication of the usefulness of those tools.
>
> Less t
ily just do a timing of test_mailbox
under 2.6 and 3.2, to verify they see the same disparity as me? The test
takes about twice as long under 3.1 here (and I am concerned that
unexercised aspects of the code may extend real-world problem run times
by an order of magnitude or more).
regards
St
> Nick.
>
Thanks for all the timings! If a Windows user could do the same thing
that would help ...
regards
Steve
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Steve Holden wrote:
> Nick Coghlan wrote:
>> Command line: ./python -m test.regrtest -v test_mailbox
>>
>> trunk: Ran 274 tests in 25.239s
>> py3k: Ran 268 tests in 26.263s
>>
>> So I don't see any substantial difference on a Kubuntu 10.04 box (both
>
ithout going crazy.
I agree - trying to step through -O2 optimized code isn't going to help
debug your code, it's going to help you debug the optimizer. That's a
very rare use case.
regards
Steve
--
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A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 11:40:50AM -0400, Steve Holden wrote:
>> I will leave the profiler output to speak for itself, since I can find
>> nothing much to say about it except that there's a hell of a lot of
>> decoding going on inside mailbox.iterk
uot; how? The ultimate destiny of the text is twofold:
1) To be stored as some kind of LOB in a database, and
2) Therefrom to be reconstituted and parsed into email.Message objects.
Is the wrapping a one-off operation or a software layer? Sorry, being a
bit dense here, I know.
regards
R. David Murray wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 13:54:09 -0400, Steve Holden wrote:
>> A.M. Kuchling wrote:
>>> But should mailboxes really be opened in a UTF-8 encoding, or should
>>> they be treated as 7-bit text? I'll have to think about this.
>> Neit
R. David Murray wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 17:02:14 -0400, Steve Holden wrote:
>> Guido van Rossum wrote:
>>
>>> - wrap the binary stream in a text stream
>> "wrap" how? The ultimate destiny of the text is twofold:
>
> I would imagine Guido i
nging this up years ago. I think that
> "unexpected" is a bad term and should be renamed to reflect the fact
> that the test was skipped because an optional third-party package was
> not included.
A "dependency skip", perhaps?
> Or simply output why a certain tes
x27;s innards.
http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2010/06/30/python-internals-adding-a-new-statement-to-python/
regards
Steve
--
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DjangoCon US September 7-9, 2010http://djangocon.us/
See Python Video! http://python.mirocommunit
ve to
> see about that.
>
And, as always, a way to get better insight and help speed the process
along is to join the cast ...
regards
Steve
--
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DjangoCon US September 7-9, 2010http://djangocon.us/
See Python Video! http://p
about, I wonder if you couldn't
> write one decent patch instead of ten complaining mails, and make both
> you and us happier in the process.
>
+1
That's the spirit, Georg.
Anatoly, I had an email along these lines saved pending transmission,
but I have deleted it now. Let'
tweeting
"tweet me for an invite to the wave") is that you have to persist, and
learn different habits for each set of collaborators. I suppose I should
approve of it on account of how it improves geek social skills.
If the wave were to result in good documentation about how to *get*
ready th
Perhaps at this stage you could actually start producing, then, and use
up a bit less bandwidth on this channel (on this matter, at least) until
you have results to report?
regards
Steve
anatoly techtonik wrote:
> Antoine, I value you contribution to `hgsvn` project, and this thread
> is
Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 12:55:56 -0400
> Steve Holden wrote:
>> Fred Drake wrote:
>>> On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 8:34 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>>>> The two sets of repositories use different conversion tools and rules.
>>>> They ha
hout a
>>> proliferation of mirrors/repos/etc.
>>>
>>> Also, we're not staying on subversion - well, as far I know.
>> At least not parallel to Mercurial. Definitely.
>>
>> Georg
>
> Well, I was worried I missed a meeting in the secret clubhouse
ause a change in another
> one, then certainly that's a sign that they should be in the same
> repo.
>
> But for the windows issue, using subrepo so that when you clone python
> repo, you get the exact same versions of C libraries as used for the
> official msi (tk, tcl, op
ast to simplify the license of Python
> but this would require agreement from the current rights owners
> including CWI and CNRI. IIRC not all of the rights owners are willing
> to agree to a change.
>
That is the current position.
regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266
>> will cost.
>
> I would be happy to relicense it under the Python license.
>
I believe the ideal outcome, if it is possible, is for you to sign a
contributor agreement. This will license your material to the PSF in
such a way that we can release it under whatever lice
mat__ can be set appropriately. See:
>
> http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0258/#id42
>
That is _so_ Python 2 ;-)
regards
Steve
--
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DjangoCon US September 7-9, 2010http://djangocon.us/
See Python Video! http://p
I see no reason to introduce the
> 2.x behaviour into Python 3.
>
> So I'd say there's nothing to do.
> Paul.
This /could/ become a bugfix in 2.7.x if people thought it was a
sufficiently egregious bug to need fixing. Given that the matter is only
now coming to light it's proba
Presumably a hostname in such a URI
would require that some host-specific protocol be used (but this should
be an access protocol like SMB or NFS, not a transfer protocol like FTP).
It seems pretty clear that randomly interpreting particular host names
to imply a specific remote-access prot
s in a certain amount of discussion and comparison with tools like
Wing, PythonWin and so on. Which in itself isn't a bad thing, but IDLE
complares so badly with the other products that I sometimes feel Python
suffers by association.
IDLE has simplicity on its side, but every way it interacts wi
dow: its window is not even activated when a menu command
> acts on it.
>
I agree, the tear-off menus are an anachronism. I'd also like a pony in
the form of easily-changeable sets of keystroke mappings. I have never
found Alt-P and its cousins either memorable or comfortable.
I won&
u, but the fact that it can deter stalwarts like
Mark perhaps indicate that a little caution should be applied when
dealing with newcomers or "outsiders". Without, I trust, spoiling the
fun for the regulars.
regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 8
port.c because of the
> annoying issues it causes and I expect the correct approach to gain
> traction at some point (plus get importlib bootstrapped in so I don't
> have to care about import.c anymore).
>
It's only a matter of time until someone decides to provide a C
e likely to be present.
>
> The other problem I have is being dropped or timed out, and not
> having/knowing a way to get auto-reconnected to the channel. Thus, I
> could miss a response even if I do get one.
>
Speak to the twisted guys. It's about a line-and-a-half of code to run a
top for a new top level
> window. This is supported by, among others, Firefox; Chrome; gedit;
> and GNOME Terminal.
>
Time used to be we would innovate, not imitate, but I suppose that
convergence has changed things.
regards
Steve
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mmitters who have both the inclination /and/ the time to do this,
so adding Tal (and other interested parties) as a developer makes a lot
of sense.
regards
Steve
--
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DjangoCon US September 7-9, 2010http://d
gt;> programmer guide.
>
> Wha? How could this not be the right place? He's not asking about
> USING python, but asking: WHERE in the PYTHON CODE BASE does the
> signal get checked?
>
> A-bit-miffed-at-the-cold-shoulderly yours,
>
> Marcos (wink wink)
+1
Ano
ust so
people realise that although they are being sent away for good reason,
if they are interested in joining the dev community there is material to
help and guide them.
regards
Steve
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ould be justified.
regards
Steve
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DjangoCon US September 7-9, 2010http://djangocon.us/
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___
be integrated with the rest somehow. I do not imagine
that this will be an easy issue to resolve, but a journey of a thousand
miles begins with a single step.
regards
Steve
--
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DjangoCon US September 7-9, 2010http://
> that, if it helps (though most of my experience is not with the
> Debian-based distributions).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dirkjan
Copying this message to the mod_wsgi author/maintainer, who should be
able to give us sound advice on this (as should Ian, but he's a
secondary server for
ambiguities in the spec, e.g.:
>
> "If fullname is not found, is not a package, or does not have any
> *.pth files, None must be returned."
>
> What does "is not a package" actually mean in that context?
>
>
> The module is a mod
er
community involvement, and I think that your suggestions about opening
up the developer community will also help relay the message that people
are welcome to help on other aspects of Python such as the cheese shop.
> For a hopefully eventually exhaustive overview of
be taught how to turn rev +
>>> component into a link to the appropriate repository.
>>
>> I still think that one tracker per project/site is the better way.
>
> Only if they have similar look and feel, and don't require you to
> register the same login N t
development process (just as for others
> posting to Python-dev will be their first contact - even if they really
> should be posting to comp.lang.python instead).
>
I agree with Michael that response to first issue posting is an
important potential recruitment channel.
It's impo
le are happier focusing purely on technical
issues, and that's fine. But let's not let that stop us trying to build
a crew of ambassadors to take care of the more touchy-feely side of
things as long as it operates to the language's ultimate benefit.
It takes all sorts to ma
On 8/3/2010 4:56 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Steve Holden writes:
>
> > No, you don't, and the current discussion about how to ensure that bug
> > reporters get at least the courtesy of a relatively quick reply is one
> > of the most promising develop
ould strongly recommend looping in the Python packaging teams from
> various distros *before* adding another such cache, unless you want to
> be fielding bugs from Launchpad.net <http://Launchpad.net> for five
> years :).
>
+1
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ndows skillz
into the group that could assist at ties like this. Some brainstorming
might find a way through.
regards
Steve
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H
On 8/4/2010 3:49 AM, Tim Golden wrote:
> On 04/08/2010 02:08, Steve Holden wrote:
>> It's a little disappointing to discover that despite the relatively
>> large number of developers who have received MSDN licenses from
>> Microsoft, none if us have the time to make s
, so having defined people to
go to for help on strange platforms would be useful. Assuming, of
course, that such people can be identified.
I'm well aware that developers have limits on the time they can spend on
Python. There's no blame here, just a wish to improve the process and
ensure
On 8/4/2010 11:00 AM, Brian Curtin wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 09:48, Barry Warsaw <mailto:ba...@python.org>> wrote:
>
> On Aug 03, 2010, at 09:08 PM, Steve Holden wrote:
>
> >It's a little disappointing to discover that despite the relatively
>
On 8/4/2010 11:00 AM, Brian Curtin wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 09:48, Barry Warsaw <mailto:ba...@python.org>> wrote:
>
> On Aug 03, 2010, at 09:08 PM, Steve Holden wrote:
>
> >It's a little disappointing to discover that despite the relatively
>
't give people
any confidence that the rules actually mean much, and I think ignoring
the latter rule can negatively affect quality.
Establishing comprehensive procedures can be as difficult as
programming, though, and requires skills that have eluded me through a
fairly lengthy technical ca
particular kind. People with programming skill would,
>> understandably, rather invest their time in something they are good at.
>
> I think you are belittling the contributions of past and present
> release managers.
>
I'd prefer to say I was displaying my igno
On 8/4/2010 6:11 PM, Georg Brandl wrote:
> Am 04.08.2010 19:56, schrieb Steve Holden:
>
>> This whole discussion seems to make it clear that the release manager
>> procedures are still ill-defined in certain areas.
>
> If you mean to imply that a release manager shoul
On 8/5/2010 2:19 AM, Georg Brandl wrote:
> Am 05.08.2010 01:26, schrieb Barry Warsaw:
>> On Aug 04, 2010, at 06:39 PM, Steve Holden wrote:
>>
>>> I'll see if I can get God to extend it for you.
>>
>> No need to involve the supernatural Steve! Just appro
On 8/5/2010 8:12 AM, Oleg Broytman wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 07:49:31AM -0400, Steve Holden wrote:
>> I'd have thought a pre-requisite for being a PHB was having hair.
>
>Not at all, not at all - being a PHB is a style of thinking, not
> hairdressing. ;)
>
I
tly motivated to integrate that build system into the
distributions and maintain it.
regards
Steve
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Ho
e line. Microsoft's recent apparent reduction of support for
dynamic languages represents a disturbing trend to me, though that is
not directly related to the question raised by this thread.
regards
Steve
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published a patch to make distutils use the
SDK compiler. It would make a lot of sense if it were built in to
distutils as a further compiler choice.
regards
Steve
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Se
On 8/9/2010 5:37 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:
> Am 09.08.2010 23:00, schrieb Steve Holden:
>> On 8/9/2010 2:47 PM, Sturla Molden wrote:
>>>> Terry Reedy:
>> [...]
>>>
>>> Python's distutils do not work with the SDK compiler, only Visual
is
that a decorator is always called with exactly one argument, and that if
you want to write a parameterized decorator you therefore end up writing
a function that returns a function that returns a function.
I've scratched my head about how partials (or indeed anything else)
could be used to
the same iterable. But I
suspect I am preaching to the choir here.
regards
Steve
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uld be stored in a
single SQLite database (with a suitable API to hide the relational
nature of the store). Then at least there would only be one file no
matter how many versions of Python were installed. Seriously. We are
already spending enough time doing stat calls on non-existent directorie
aint checkout.
>
> svnmerge merge -S /python/branches/release27-maint -r0002
> svn commit -F svnmerge-commit-message.txt # r0004
>
>
>
regards
Steve
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S
e
the folder is not shared.
Can someone explain how to avoid the sharing in the first place?
regards
Steve
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Holden We
On 8/22/2010 10:10 PM, Daniel Stutzbach wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Steve Holden <mailto:st...@holdenweb.com>> wrote:
>> Folders that I create with Cygwin using mkdir appear to be shared - sort
>> of. They are denoted with the shared folder icon, and when I
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