to explain or use than the
Barry> current print statement.
Then why remove it at all?
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_AsString. If the argument object is a
view you have to "un-view" it by copying the interesting bits and DECREFing
the ob_referent. This is because of the NUL termination guarantee.
I wonder if the use of views would offset the overhead of returning to a
double-malloc allocation
the print statement is suitable for
the majority of my output.
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#x27;s easy to hit NL at an intermediate
comma, then just type "print ", perhaps followed by another output
redirector. The two print statements' output still falls on a single
line. The trailing comma on the previous line gives me a space between the
two output chunks.
Skip
_
en> 'frobble', frobble)
Steven> To my (admittedly biased) eyes, the second version more
Steven> obviously prints to a single line.
Yes, you're right. My bad.
So, is the proposal that you would need an explicit "\n" to terminate the
out
g.:
print("foo", "bar", "baz", " ", stream=sys.stderr)
That seems a bit like magic, but probably no less magic than the current
trailing comma.
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skip> print("foo", "bar", "baz", " ", stream=sys.stderr)
skip> That seems a bit like magic, but probably no less magic than the
skip> current trailing comma.
Make that no *more* magic ...
Skip
_
tures would be less if output redirection had been
available from the start.
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Guido> a statement instead?
Nope, but there is a large body of code out there that does use print
statements already. Again, I know you're prepared for breakage, but that
doesn't necessarily mean a completely blank sheet of paper.
Skip
_
version
is trivial, so the only potential benefit for me would be print, which I can
probably get 90% of the way there with a couple Emacs macros.
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n "" % self.val
...
>>> d = Dumb(5)
>>> d
<__main__.Dumb instance at 0x11042d8>
>>> print d
It's just repr() vs. str(), but the difference can be significant in many
circumstances.
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Greg> If a Python function is clearly wrapping a C function, one doesn't
Greg> expect to be able to pass strings with embedded NULs to it.
Isn't that just floating an implementation detail up to the programmer (who may
well not be POSIX- or Unix-aware)?
___
Neal> The only way I could see to fix it was by setting a continue flag
Neal> and testing it. Does anyone know a better way to fix this
Neal> problem?
Certainly looks reasonable until we figure out how (if at all) GDB's command
language implements a break-like st
Greg> If a Python function is clearly wrapping a C function, one doesn't
Greg> expect to be able to pass strings with embedded NULs to it.
Skip> Isn't that just floating an implementation detail up to the
Skip> programmer (who may well not be POSIX- or Uni
Fredrik> backquotes are a PITA to type on many non-US keyboards.
Interesting. On US keyboards they are often easier to type than parens...
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x27;re generating output that goes between and
(where newlines do matter)?
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ing changes would have been incorporated into the core had they
yielded speedups on multiprocessors and not hurt performance on
uniprocessors.
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test__locale still fails for me on Mac OS X 10.3.9. This is on both the 2.4
branch and HEAD. Does it succeed for anyone on 10.4? If not, perhaps we
should list that as an expected failure on that platform?
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implicitly call bool() for me. There's
clear value to the current semantics and it's so easy to get a boolean if
you want it, I see no reason for a change.
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Guido> After all there's nothing wrong with and/or.
Especially if it's correct.
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>> (C) That scheduler is non-preemptive. A single greedy generator can
>> starve all the others.
Antoine> Instead of looking at this as a problem, you could look at it
Antoine> as a feature.
Apple looked at it as a feature for years. No
interface is better than recovering somewhere further downstream.
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Andrew> Umm... Is this a joke?
I hope so. I must admit the OP's intent didn't make itself known to me with
the cursory glance I gave it. Jp's formulation is how I would have written
it. Assuming of course, that was the
s pretty mature at that point and I understood what objects were shared
and needed to be locked. Oh, and I took Aahz's admonition to heart and
pretty much stuck to using Queues for all synchronization. It ain't rocket
science, but it can be subtle.
Skip
ed by a function, how will the bytecode
generator know that q should be looked up using LOAD_NAME instead of
LOAD_GLOBAL? Maybe it's a non-issue, but even if so, a note to that affect
on the wiki page might be worthwhile.
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ient than lists. Taken as a whole,
perhaps a stronger attachment with the threading module isn't such a bad
idea.
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#x27;s advocate here. I'm fine with Queue being where it
is.)
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ould be to import the thread module
(currently threading) and use its Thread and Queue objects. For specialized
use the threadutils programmer can import the threadutils module to get at
the synchronization primitives it contains.
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Python-Dev ma
need them. OTOH, providing some higher
level abstractions seems to make sense. (I have to admit I have no idea
what a QueueThread's outbox queue would be used for. Queues are generally
multi-producer, single-consumer objects. It makes sense for a thread to
have an inbox. I'm not so
e benchmark, it might be useful for testing improvements to
attribute access.
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implementation-wise, I see no reason it should be rejected out-of-hand.
(Send it to Raymond H. He'll probably sneak it in when Martin's not
looking. )
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it was that short. At work we use lots of SWIG-wrapped C++
libraries. Whole lotta dynamic linking goin' on... In our case I don't
think autoloading would help all that much. We actually use all that stuff.
The best we could do would be to defer the link
Neal> We all know Guido likes Python. But the real question is do
Neal> pythons like Guido?
Neal> http://python.org/neal/
Like Steve (and unlike Oleg), I get 404s for this page. I also tried
"www.python.org"
Neal> This URL should work for a while longer.
Neal> http://creosote.python.org/neal/
Ah, the vagaries of URL redirection. Thanks...
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Martin> If people want to test the installation before the switch
Martin> happens, this would be the time to do it.
Martin,
Can you let us know again the magic incantation to check out the source from
the repository?
Thx,
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>> :
>>
...
Steve> Wow, that's really neat. And you save a keyword! ;-)
Two if you add a builtin called "function" (get rid of "def").
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that
type Foo (base):
def __init__(self):
pass
would be equivalent to
class Foo (base):
def __init__(self):
pass
and thought that
function myfunc(arg1, arg2):
pass
would be equivalent to
ur=23) would compare equal to any DateTime with
its time equal to 11PM. Under the rule, "in the face of ambiguity, refuse
the temptation to guess", I'm inclined to dump support for marshalling and
comparison of time objects altogether. Do others agr
ch at
http://python.org/sf/1330538
I went ahead and assigned it to Fred since he's worked with that code fairly
recently.
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>>>>> "martin" == martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
martin> The Python source code repository is now converted to
martin> subversion; please feel free to start checking out new
martin> sandboxes.
Excell
o find isolated
tidbits in the Subversion FAQ:
http://subversion.tigris.org/faq.html
Just grep around for "cvs".
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Jim> And can you remind us where to send our public keys? :)
Jim,
Send your keys to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unless you specify otherwise, your
login will probably be "jim.fulton".
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f useful recipients is no more than five (Martin, Barry,
Anthony, Sean, maybe one or two others).
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rett> let me know.
We're starting to look at how much information we can push over to the Wiki.
Any pages where multiple people might contribute, especially if they are not
the typical website maintainers, seems to me like good Wiki candidates to
me. That goes double for any
s to
svn more easily. Anyone with cvs and svn experience, but without the
ability to check stuff into the pydotorg repository could contribute.
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Fred> Shouldn't we simply remove the .cvsignore files? Subversion
Fred> doesn't use them, so they'll just end up getting out of sync with
Fred> the svn:ignore properties.
Is there some equivalent? If so, can we convert the .cvsignore files bef
base'; expected:
'8611dc5f592e7cbc6070524a1437db9b', actual: '2d28838f2fec366fc58386728a48568e'
What's that telling me?
Thx,
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Tim> Excellent suggestions! I have a few to pass on:
skip> These are precisely the things the Wiki would be good for.
I went ahead and used Tim's note as the basis for a page on the wiki:
http://wiki.python.org/moin/CvsToSvn
It's linked from the PythonDevelopers
nks. I zapped Objects. The next svn up complained about Misc. The next
about Lib. After that, the next svn up ran to completion.
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currently
performs. Another alternative would be to rewrite Pychecker (or Pychecker
2) to operate from the AST representation.
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a few days once the
ball got rolling. I think Martin announced the demise of the SF repository
around 20 October, with a cutover date of 26 October.
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dled but not Tkinter's.
This sounds sort of like the situation that existed with sys.exitfunc before
the creation of the atexit module. Can't we develop an API similar to that
so that many different event-loop-wanting packages can play nice together?
(The
eturn re.sub(r"(\r?\n)\s+", r"\1", s)
msg = """From: %s
To: %s
Subject: Host failure report for %s
Date: %s
%s
"""
msg = istring(msg) % (fr, ', '.join(to), host, time.ctime(), err)
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sockets to another event loop controller. That might present some hurdles
for the various package writers/Python wrappers.
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infer the revision number because I know Neal made the change and roughly
where in the given file(s) he was making changes, but I doubt that would
always be true. I guess, did cvstosvn save that mapping somewhere?
Thx,
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k, release23-maint,
release24-maint, peps), though see my next message...
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v: 41430
Last Changed Date: 2005-11-12 09:55:04 -0600 (Sat, 12 Nov 2005)
Properties Last Updated: 2005-11-12 12:00:07 -0600 (Sat, 12 Nov 2005)
I was running 1.2.0. I just downloaded and built 1.2.3. It made no
difference.
This is getting kinda frustra
t
Skipped 'Include/code.h'
code.h is not mentioned in Include/.svn/entries.
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h originally.
I built 1.2.3 from source. I'll give the prebuilt 1.2.3 a try.
Martin> I would also recommend to throw away the sandbox completely and
Martin> check it out from scratch. Please report whether this gives you
Martin> code.h.
Yes, it does (still with
hanks, I'll remember it for next time...
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toolkits on Unix systems would use anything other than select() on a
socket at the bottom.
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ges the hook.
See sys.exitfunc and the atexit module for a simple example.
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er's usage patterns were
a bad corner case. It's hard to tell without more details.
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27;m sorry, but I'm confused as well. If these scipy arrays have elements
that are subclasses of floats shouldn't we be able to provoke this memory
growth using an array.array of floats? Can you provide a simple script in
pure Python (no sc
ile and
haven't tried lsprof yet. I would think having something readily available
(whether in the standard library or not) would be handy when needed,
hopefully with nothing more than "python setup.py install" required to make
it available.
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o demonstrate that there are lots of
different ways to skin this particular cat. How many of these various
alternatives belong in the standard library remains to be seen.
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ning of "best of breed" when a package is
added to the standard library, so we probably shouldn't be adding every
candidate that comes along until we have a better idea of the best way to do
things.
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utes,
perhaps their computation can be avoided. I did that recently by inlining
only the parts of logging.LogRecord.__init__ in a subclass and avoided
calling logging.LogRecord.__init__ altogether. It generated lots of
instance variables we never use and just slowed
... do the usual initialization ...
In that case it would be the caller's responsibility to make sure that extra
contains everything they need. To insure that, a static LogRecord method
could be used to return a default extras dict:
extras = LogRecord.get_default_extra()
while True:
e" and "svn up", so it's not a basic problem
connecting to the server. It appears to be something specific to this
command or revision.
Thx,
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+ssh://svn.python.org/python/trunk
...
Okay, I got it. I was asking for that revision on the release24-maint
branch, but it was actually applied to the trunk. It shows up now in the
maintenance branch, but still has to be queried for on the trunk.
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that,
see here:
http://python.org/sf/1374063
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nfo I think), but perhaps that downside is less
important than the perception some people have that logging in is a barrier
to submission.
Try it for a few months and see?
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and make the appropriate adjustment. In the common
case though, I suspect it will work though. As indicated in the patch
submission, the goals are to:
* extend the set of sequences that can be marshalled transparently
* keep the caller from caring as much about
the boilerplate SF displays.
My biggest frustration is that SF doesn't support tracker interaction via
email. That would present its own set of problems (think spam & virii), but
seems like it ought to lower the barrier to submission a bit.
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h to roundup so we can
Guido> abandon SF?
Fine with me. Is it ready to go though? If not, what more needs to be
done? I was under the assumption that it wasn't ready for prime time and
solicited inputs on c.l.py in a couple messages yesterday and today.
Skip
ElementTree and any necessary C helper/accelerator modules it uses should
wind up in the distribution.
Skip
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I think the key here is ElementTree's Pythoninc API. While it's clearly
> possible to install it as a third-party package, I
this point. Fredrik Lundh would have to offer it for
Martin> contribution first.
Understood. Hence the reference in my note to "non-technical issues".
Fredrik has been participating in the c.l.py thread. I doubt he will be shy
about voicing his opinion here.
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rior to the current XML-related modules.
Think of it as Pythonic affirmative action. ;-)
Skip
(*) As in so much better that I was actually able to a) understand how to
use it and then b) actually use it in a real application. With the DOM
stuff the barrier was always too high for me
ch 2000 seems to have been a fertile month for cyclic GC.
--
Skip Montanaro
Katrina Benefit Concerts: http://www.musi-cal.com/katrina
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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im> blah.setFoo(v)".
Presuming the foo attribute provides some element of the API that you are
willing to support forever. If it is just an implementation detail you
should use accessor methods or properties.
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>>>>> "Jim" == Jim Fulton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Jim> The decision about wither to implement foo as a key in the instance
Jim> dictionary *is* an implementation detail that can be hidden by a
Jim> property.
If it's not in
#x27;t properties only work with new-style clsses? If so, this should
probably be noted.
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as it going to wait until Py3k, or sometime sooner?
Dunno.
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Nick> Any old code could be fixed by putting "from types import
Nick> ClassType as __metaclass__" at the top of the affected modules.
Which would be, what, 90% of all Python code written that defines classes?
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sion and the XEmacs version. You could
maintain a context/unified diff instead I suppose, then just update the
.upstream version and patch it to get the candidate version.
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hods
coupling between modules is reduced and you can be more confident that the
only place an object's state is modified directly is in its own code.
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bject's state is modified directly
>> is in its own code.
pje> So?
So I'm saying I encounter it in practice and makes code harder to maintain.
It's not a hypothetical problem for me.
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Pyt
his
convention should be given. Personally, I group imports into three sections
as follows:
* Python core modules/packages
* Third-party modules/packages
* Local modules/packages
I can't explain why I do it that way. I guess it just satisfies some inner
hobgoblin.
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quot;public" is subject to some interpretation. Just because I don't
prefix an attribute with an underscore doesn't mean I've implicitly declared
it public. I assume that people will familiarize themselves with the
callable methods of a
ely
be put off by DOM and SAX. I couldn't tell you what they do, just that they
were Too Hard (tm) for me to bother with XML in most situations. Then
ElementTree came along.
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Nick> classes work, so I try to avoid using them.
Again, we're actually thinking along the same lines. Classic classes work
just fine for me, so I've been slow to let the new-style class meme permeate
through my brain.
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Jim> Personally, I don't find the stdlib/external distinction to be
Jim> useful.
For me it's just a "who do I blame for problems" sort of thing. Most of the
time I know, but others looking at my code might not know that MySQLdb isn't
in th
ostly boils down to a matter of taste. Did I also mention that
most of the programmers here are C++ folk? They have their beloved inline
keyword.
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, which the revision number alone cannot do. ("trunk" is the
Armin> last part of the path returned by "svn info".)
What was your directory path when you got "trunk" from "svn info"? In my
sandbox I get this:
% pwd
/Users/skip/src/python-svn
y, perhaps restricting it to plain old text editors.
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mentation should be better" among the top hits. But if you
Fredrik> check the bug and patch trackers, you don't find many
Fredrik> contributions. Something's definitely broken.
People find it easier to complain than to contribute. Maybe we should fix
that problem...
>> http://trentm.com/python/
Fredrik> you rule!
Actually, I think Trent rocks. Guido rules.
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do we need to do to squash this meme?
Tony & other python-dev summarizers (and maybe Cameron Laird for the c.l.py
summaries): please make a note of this in your next summary. The
I-can't-contribute-because-I-don't-know-LaTeX notion has to
-- incorrect.
Check here:
http://www.trentm.com/python/dailyhtml/api/unicodeObjects.html
Is it up-to-date? If so, your changes have made it into the documentation
source.
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