stance(x, str)' in the library (with whatever other
> changes are needed) a bugfix to be pushed or a prohibited API expansion?
>
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>
> I agree that usage of the word "string" is all too often ambiguous in
> the documentation, but that doesn't justify a wholesale overhaul of
> the Python 2.7 API to make everything polymorphic.
>
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On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 8:37 AM, Chris Barker wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 6:44 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> AFACT, in that message Victor was only talking about allowing Unicode
>> filenames.
>>
> ...
>
>> Finally, in most places Python 2.7 *does* h
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 5:23 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> >>>>> Guido van Rossum writes:
>
> > Given that the claim "Python 2 doesn't support Unicode filenames"
> > is factually incorrect (in Python 2.7, most filesystem calls in
> &g
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> Therefore it's not possible to call cgitb.text outside of an exception
> handling context (that is, not possible to use it as a
> traceback.print_stack providing extra information). If it were possible
> to create traceback objects, there would be no issue there at
It's all very old C code that's deeply intertwined with interpreter
internals. Who knows what kind of assumptions are made by some of the C
code consuming frames and tracebacks...
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Xavier Morel wrote:
> On 2014-03-06, at 19:32 , Guido van Rossum w
7;s very useful to see unhandled exceptions as early as
> > possible. Otherwise, your program is blocked and you don't know why.
> >
> > Guido van Rossum suggests to run gc.collect() regulary:
> > http://code.google.com/p/tulip/issues/detail?id=42
> >
> > Vi
On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 10:39 AM, Maciej Fijalkowski wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 7:35 PM, Guido van Rossum
> wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 10:30 AM, Maciej Fijalkowski
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Victor Stinner
> >&
On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Maciej Fijalkowski wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 7:49 PM, Guido van Rossum
> wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 10:39 AM, Maciej Fijalkowski
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 7:35 PM, Guido van Rossum
> >
On 3/10/2014 12:29 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
I don't think there'd be huge problems
with a 4.0 release that's just like 3.10 except that it's a little
more free with removal of deprecateds. Maybe that could be the point
at which 2.x compatibility is dropped,
... and the point at which those of
r other copy-edit type things. At least, I can't remember
> anything that was substantive :)
>
> Oh, there was one thing that might be worth cherry picking: the change
> to the email docs. The new EmailMessage class was documented as being
> in the wrong module. But even tha
On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 2:59 PM, R. David Murray wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Mar 2014 19:57:36 +0100, Georg Brandl wrote:
> > Am 11.03.2014 15:54, schrieb Guido van Rossum:
> > > I'm not sure I agree completely with this lax attitude about the
> contents of the
> > >
never explaining those dreadful acronyms :-)
this was a well-written and well-researched PEP, and I think you've done a
great job moderating the discussion, collecting objections, reviewing
alternatives, and everything else that is required to turn a heated debate
into a
On 3/12/2014 1:44 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
unless someone's going to employ me to champion PEPs full time :)
(Hmm. That would be an interesting job title on the resume.)
It's available now -- www.pepboys.com :)
Emile
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On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 4:02 AM, Giampaolo Rodola' wrote:
>
> On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 3:17 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> I don't think so. asyncio depends on selectors but not vice versa. The
>> selectors module was not part of PEP 3156. It is solid and I don&#x
Maybe this would be a good subject for a series of blog posts? There is
certainly plenty we have to say based on 20+ years of experience adding
stuff to the stdlib (and not adding it).
On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 8:55 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
> On 16 March 2014 01:40, Guido van Rossum wr
On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 2:44 PM, Nikolaus Rath wrote:
> Guido van Rossum writes:
> > This downside of using subclassing as an API should be well known by now
> > and widely warned against.
>
> It wasn't known to me until now. Are these downsides described in some
>
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so that
it can be used to justify future actions without due process.
I wonder whether there is a specific narrower proposal (e.g. add SSLContext
to Python 2.7.7?) that would make the discussion more concrete.
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ke any difference for the security of Dropbox. But neither would
switching to Python 3.)
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On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 9:33 AM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote:
> Am 23.03.14 17:22, schrieb Guido van Rossum:
> > At Dropbox I work with a large group of very capable developers on
> > several large code bases that are currently in 2.7. We are constantly
> > changing
to use
dynamic feature detection, not version checks, it's at least *conceivable*
that some library detects SSLContext and switches to some code that uses
Python-3-only features (of the variety that don't cause syntax errors in
Python 2).
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like clarity on
this; IIRC we've had to make some compatibility-breaking changes in the
past for security reasons, but I don't recall the details or how that
worked out (whether much code broke and whether that was considered a good
or a bad thing).
--
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On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 9:46 AM, Donald Stufft wrote:
>
> On Mar 25, 2014, at 12:35 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> [...]
>
> I do note that the PEP seems to have some weasel-words about breaking
> backward compatibility in the name of security. The phrase "This PEP does
&
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Python-D
that
usage pattern becomes popular.
On Wed, Mar 26, 2014 at 2:36 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Guido van Rossum :
>
> > Actually, the first step is publish it on PyPI, the second is to get a
> > fair number of happy users there. The bar for getting something
> > included into the
led item with
> the last item in the heap and then fix the heap in logarithmic time,
> but the heapq API doesn't seem to provide a way to do this.
>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.
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Surely you can show empathy and still explain why it's not that easy.
On Mar 27, 2014 2:11 AM, "Maciej Fijalkowski" wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 11:07 AM, Paul Moore wrote:
> > On 27 March 2014 08:16, Maciej Fijalkowski wrote:
> >> And random pieces of C included in the standard library can
BTW, my intention was also to set a precedent for future additions to the
list. "We did this before" is a great argument to help smooth the path,
without bypassing deliberations altogether.
On Mar 27, 2014 2:33 AM, "Nick Coghlan" wrote:
> On 27 March 2014 18:02, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> > Al
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either in clarity or simplicity") is hardly a good reason.
On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> Actually, I had ignored this discussion for so long that I was surprised
> by the outcome. My main use case isn't printing a number that may already
> be a s
-encoding it."""
>
>
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On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 10:55 AM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 03/27/2014 10:29 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>>
>> I also don't understand why we can't use %b instead of %s. AFAIK %b
>> currently doesn't mean anything and I somehow don't
>> expec
Much better, but I'm still not happy with including %s at all. Otherwise
it's accept-worthy. (How's that for pressure. :-)
On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 03/27/2014 10:55 AM, Ethan Furman wrote:
>
>> On 03/27/2014 10:29 AM, Guido van Ross
truct bytes to write to the socket, and I'd be happy if I could write
b'HTTP/1.0 %d %b\r\n' % (status, message) rather than having to use
str(status).encode('ascii') and concatenation or join().
On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Brett Cannon wrote:
>
>
> On T
y
> discussed, %s for bytes is a bit like exposing sprintf()...
>
I don't understand that last claim (I can't figure out whether in this
context is exposing sprintf() is considered good or bad). But apart from
that, can you give some specific examples?
PS. I am not trying to be diffi
On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 03/27/2014 11:24 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 10:55 AM, Ethan Furman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The biggest reason to use %s is to support a common code base for 2/3
>>> end
I love it!
On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:11 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 03/27/2014 11:59 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>>
>> PS. I am not trying to be difficult. I honestly don't understand the use
>> case yet, and the PEP doesn't do much t
pper()``, ``isalpha()``, and ``expandtabs()`` to
> name
> just a few. %-interpolation, with its very restricted mini-language, will
> not
> be any more of a nuisance than the already existing methods.
>
> Some have objected to allowing the full range of numeric formatting codes
&
bikeshedding and it can happen on the tracker or directly on
the list just as easily; I don't see the need for a PEP.
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time.monotonic()
>> loop.run_until_complete(asyncio.wait(tasks))
>> return time.monotonic() - t0
>>
>> print("1+1 = %r" % eval_python("1+1", timeout=1.0))
>>
>> slow_code = "import math; print(str(math.factorial(2)).count('7&#
On 4/3/2014 7:46 AM, Tres Seaver wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 04/03/2014 10:36 AM, R. David Murray wrote:
More seriously, I don't believe there should ever be a Py4k the way
there was a Py3k, and would prefer not to feed any rumours that there
might be.
Amen!
+1
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.7.6, and that would confuse and upset people.
- Apparently no restaurant in downtown Montreal takes reservations for a
group of 30 people to show up in one hour.
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> Planning-on-making-2.7-releases-'til-the-cows-come-home-ly yours,
> Benjamin
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On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 9:39 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 9, 2014, at 18:31, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > I think this is pretty much what Nick Coghlan implied at the summit.
>
> He implied that it's currently the plan or that it should be the plan?
>
On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 9:39 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 9, 2014, at 18:31, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > I think this is pretty much what Nick Coghlan implied at the summit.
>
> He implied that it's currently the plan or that it should be the plan?
>
ese questions were answered at the Summit. Montreal's
> > treatment of thirty-person-parties at one hour's notice may or may not
> > be considered a bug to be fixed in 2.7, but its geographic barrier to
> > Australians is definitely a feature addition. And will need to be
ely a feature addition. And will need to be
> > thoroughly bikeshedded on -ideas before implementation (can the time
> > machine be used to travel in relative dimensions in space?)
>
Only across branches of an AST though.
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where" is not good enough. I want the full description
of the plan written up here in python-dev. Blog links might serve to
clarify the motivation though.
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f a
development environment to be available to count as an alternative to
ctypes.)
On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 3:34 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 12:30 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>
>> Le 10/04/2014 20:58, Guido van Rossum a écrit :
>>
>>
>>> Huh, I totall
05B C09C 5A3B 57F3 BF04
> whom do you want to sponsor today? http://www.stackless.com/
>
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>>>
>>> Michael Foord
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/
>>>
>>>
>>> May you do good and not evil
>>> May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
>>> May you share freely, never taking more than yo
d the same - it may
> not be at the level of employing a core developer full time, but it's the
> starting point that some companies will ne
> ed to be able to become comfortable with employing a core dev.
>
> I'm not pretending to have a full plan on how this will work. I was
&g
On Apr 14, 2014 2:42 PM, "Terry Reedy" wrote:
>
> On 4/14/2014 1:19 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>>
>> Some quick thoughts:
>>
>> - I'd prefer a name that plays on 2 and 3, not 2 and 8. :-)
>>
>> - Are you sure this isn't better dir
to
avoid making the same mistake in the future (to you, and to others)?
[PS. When I appeared to write "Pylon brain fry" earlier in this thread,
that was an unfortunate auto-correct for "PyCon brain fry". We need to get
"PyCon" into the dictionary...]
--
--Guid
t; get involved during PyCon, and I heard that others did the same - it
>> may not be at the level of employing a core developer full time, but
>> it's the starting point that some companies will need to be able to
>>
>> become comfortable with employing a core dev.
>>
accepted.
>
> Huh, I hadn't thought of it that way before, but it's a very good point.
>
Indeed. This is also a reflection of a good hiring policy for software
developers (wannabe startup founders pay attention): Don't just try to hire
brilliant coders -- look for people who wor
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> codec lookup: 2179
> signals: 120
> tracemalloc: 7
> __main__: 13
> initstdio(): 1568
> warnings module: 4
> initsite(): 9552
>
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gt; signals: 120
>> tracemalloc: 7
>> __main__: 13
>> initstdio(): 1568
>> warnings module: 4
>> initsite(): 9552
>>
>
> It looks like initsite takes half the time. Can it be sped up?
>
>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
>
> _
ns occur frequently enough to
worry about it.
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ot
> into Python that way.
>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.
>
>
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>> As a baseline, 2.7 vs default:
>>
>> ### normal_startup ###
>>
>> Min: 0.368916 -> 0.521758: 1.41x slower
>>
>> Avg: 0.376784 -> 0.531883: 1.41x slower
>>
>> Significant (t=-172.82)
>>
>> Stddev: 0.00423 -> 0.00474: 1.1207x
t think we have ever bothered to write it down
> somewhere as an important distinction of the initial design that should be
> emphasized.
>
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o be addressed at PEP-8 since it looks like a
> styling issue.
>
> I haven't seen any other recommendations there on how to use a certain
> data structure, though.
>
> Cheers, Leandro
> Em 17/04/2014 16:24, "Guido van Rossum" escreveu:
>
> It's
On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
>
> On Thu Apr 17 2014 at 3:21:49 PM, Guido van Rossum
> wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry to keep asking dumb questions, but your description didn't job
>> my understanding of what you are comparing here. What is slow
t; allowing software integrators to dive in and customise things to suit
> their own needs.
>
> From a Python 2->3 migration perspective, blessing at least one sumo
> distribution also provides a way to make it easy to gain ready access
> to backports from the Python 3 standard
a measurable slowdown in the latter I would be totally okay
with some kind of one-element cache for the most recent lookup.
I get the social aspect of the PEP, but I think it's too high a price to
pay.
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ill work.
I am also concerned about the dependency on Python 3.5 that we're building
here. I'd much rather be able to use Twisted sooner, with 3.3 or at least
3.4.
On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 9:17 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
>
> On 19 Apr 2014 10:53, "Guido van Rossum" wrote:
feeling rather useless at giving that reasoning and I'm hoping you can
> help :-)
>
> cheers,
>
> Chris
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WI in the context of the ABC language.
I'm sorry, I have no recollection of such studies. (ABC used case
differently anyway, so camelcase wasn't possible there -- and neither were
underscores).
Barry maybe referring to a more informal survey of feedback from
On Apr 24, 2014 7:01 PM, "Chris Angelico" wrote:
>
> On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 11:40 AM, Allen Li wrote:
> > 2) If you're starting a new project, follow PEP8 (or the standards for
> >the language you're using) to preserve CONSISTENCY.
>
> Don't forget that PEP 8 is not the standard for the Pyth
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change (and perhaps a test,
> though that doesn't seem terribly necessary here).
>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.
>
>
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x27;s the same thing for e.g. GzipFile, and probably many others.
>
> Would it make sense to add a note somewhere?
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't recall exactly where
that is, so I recommend that you just look at CPython's source tree. (I
know you have a personal desire not to look at CPython, but I can't help
you without referring to it anyway.)
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gt;
> (IIRC, "layout" is determined by tp_basicsize, tp_itemsize, the
> number of __slots__, and other things perhaps)
>
IIRC the actual inheritance pattern also goes into it. Two structs that
each add an identical new field to a common base class's struct should
*not* be consi
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Thanks -- your memory is better than mine!
On Apr 29, 2014 8:16 AM, "PJ Eby" wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 7:26 PM, Paul Sokolovsky wrote:
>
>> Well, sure I did, as I mentioned, but as that's first time I see that
>> code (that specific piece is in typeobject.c:extra_ivars()), it would
>
d
> reference when in MicroPython we'll hit actual case when CPython
> accepts some inheritance patterns and uPy doesn't.
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Paul mailto:pmis...@gmail.com
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> Python-
't considered worth the effort, if it was considered
> at all.
>
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; (MS Excel docs, Java docs, Go lang docs, etc.)
>
> http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/Random.html
> http://golang.org/pkg/math/rand/
>
> Those docs are clear, concise, not preachy, and not littered
> with distractions.
>
>
> Raymond
>
>
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> PGP: 0x6E3CBCE93372DCFA // 7C6B 7C5D 5E2B 6356 A926 F04F 6E3C BCE9 3372
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Sorry about that. I will look into it soon, but won't have time right away.
(Also I missed David's earlier message.)
On May 12, 2014 5:14 PM, "Eric Snow" wrote:
> On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 12:43 PM, R. David Murray
> wrote:
> > These changes appear to have caused several builbot failures, and
> >
Main problem with rare platform support is not breaking it accidentally,
since without buildbots we won't know when it's broken. This is why we
don't make any promises.
On May 14, 2014 9:02 PM, "Cameron Simpson" wrote:
> On 14May2014 14:45, Brett Cannon wrote:
>
>> On Wed May 14 2014 at 10:43:18
Please preserve the tradition. Adding it to PEP 8 sounds good!
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S only mentions hmac.compare_digest.
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Thanks for the update, Donald. Did anyone get any help from Red Hat or
other distros?
On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 7:02 PM, Donald Stufft wrote:
>
> On May 18, 2014, at 9:53 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
>
>> G
At the very least PEP 466 needs to be updated to admit the failure -- it
would be a shame if people read the PEP and assumed the promised features
actually landed in 2.7.7 (which the PEP explicitly lists).
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utating method than a non-mutating
> one, so it's less likely you'll make a mistake.
>
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isted above.
>
> Sorry for not being explicit: these are download counts for Windows
> installers.
>
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