[Python-Dev] Gmane not functioning.

2014-04-02 Thread Terry Reedy
Just to let those who read the list as a list (or via mail.python.org, as I just did as a backup) know, news.gmane.org appears to have stoppedreceiving new messages from mailing listsat about 0:30 this morning (apr 2). (I am judging this from the last recorded post on the super-busy linux kerna

Re: [Python-Dev] Gmane not functioning.

2014-04-03 Thread Terry Reedy
It is again now. -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com

Re: [Python-Dev] New absolute __file__ in Python 3.4

2014-04-04 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/4/2014 11:21 AM, anatoly techtonik wrote: https://docs.python.org/3.4/whatsnew/3.4.html#other-language-changes 1. Is this absolute name with symlinks resolved? 2. Why there is a special case for __main__? (i.e. Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules.) Did you read the link

Re: [Python-Dev] [Python-checkins] cpython (3.4): asyncio: Document Task.cancel() properly.

2014-04-07 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/7/2014 5:22 AM, victor.stinner wrote: def cancel(self): +"""Request that a task to cancel itself. For proper English, this should be one of these: "Request that a task cancel itself." "Request a task to cancel itself." I think the first is slightly better. TJR ___

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 465: A dedicated infix operator for matrix multiplication

2014-04-09 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/8/2014 6:32 PM, cjw wrote: Larry Hastings wasn't far from the truth. Larry's note was about adding (redundant) *NON-ascii* unicode symbols, in particular × == \xd7, as in A × B, as a synonym for '@'. Various people hav

Re: [Python-Dev] A Friendly IDLE

2014-04-09 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/9/2014 12:25 AM, adnanume...@gmail.com wrote: Greeting Everyone. First of all I want to introduce my self Adnan Umer as a student of bachelors in Information Technology. I’ve few suggestions on improving IDLE. Here are few: Python-list, python-ideas, or idle-dev lists might have been bett

Re: [Python-Dev] flock in Python 3

2014-04-11 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/11/2014 8:58 AM, Jakub QB Dorňák wrote: writing a threaded application I've been surprised that there is no object api for fcntl.flock implementing __enter__() and __exit__() methods to be used with 'with' statement. Several things have been turned into context managers because someone f

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 461: Adding % formatting to bytes and bytearray -- Final, Take 3

2014-04-12 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/12/2014 11:08 AM, Augie Fackler wrote: On Mar 29, 2014, at 2:53 PM, Gregory P. Smith mailto:g...@krypto.org>> wrote: On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 3:05 PM, Antoine Pitrou mailto:solip...@pitrou.net>> wrote: On Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:47:59 + Brett Cannon mailto:bcan...@gmail.com>> wro

Re: [Python-Dev] Appeal for reviews

2014-04-12 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/12/2014 2:58 PM, Nikolaus Rath wrote: I've accumulated a number of patches in the issue tracker that are waiting for someone to review/commit/reject them. I'm eager to make corrections as necessary, I just need someone to look the work that I've done so far: If I did not have several Idle

Re: [Python-Dev] Appeal for reviews

2014-04-13 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/13/2014 2:46 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: As for the request "Are you sure that the patch is ready": this is *very* difficult to answer for the author. We all have experienced that patches that we considered good were critized out of nowhere, and I just did the same to Nikolaus. There is ju

Re: [Python-Dev] static typing of input arguments in signatures

2014-04-13 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/13/2014 4:11 AM, Łukasz Langa wrote: On Apr 13, 2014, at 12:48 AM, Stefan Behnel wrote: Stefan Behnel, 12.04.2014 19:11: So, what I've learned from seven years of Cython is that static typing in signatures is actually less interesting than you might think at first sight. It might be ok f

Re: [Python-Dev] Python "2migr8"

2014-04-14 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/14/2014 1:19 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: Some quick thoughts: - I'd prefer a name that plays on 2 and 3, not 2 and 8. :-) - Are you sure this isn't better directed to python-ideas first? Most ideas have to prove their worth in that list before python-dev will give them the light of day. -

Re: [Python-Dev] Python "2migr8"

2014-04-14 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/14/2014 11:32 AM, Steve Dower wrote: To put it up front, I'm totally against "CPython 2.8" ever becoming a real thing. Anything that comes out should be seen as a migration path, not an upgrade path. I'll also admit I'm not heavily invested in working on it myself, but I had a number of con

Re: [Python-Dev] Python "2migr8"

2014-04-14 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/14/2014 5:16 PM, Donald Stufft wrote: On Apr 14, 2014, at 4:39 PM, Guido van Rossum mailto:gu...@python.org>> wrote: On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 4:02 PM, Donald Stufft mailto:don...@stufft.io>> wrote: On Apr 14, 2014, at 3:53 PM, Terry Reedy mailto:tjre...@udel

Re: [Python-Dev] Python "2migr8"

2014-04-14 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/14/2014 5:00 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Terry Reedy mailto:tjre...@udel.edu>> wrote: If the company is profitable, it could afford to fund a half- to full-time developer. By using the vague 'fund' I meant either hire themsel

Re: [Python-Dev] Appeal for reviews

2014-04-15 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/15/2014 12:15 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: I've always really liked MvL's 5-reviews-to-get-1 approach. The only thing I don't like about it[3] is that it puts an explicit price on core developer time ("my time is worth 5x as much as yours"). Not really true since any of the 5 could b

Re: [Python-Dev] Timing breakdown of Py_InitializeEx_Private()

2014-04-15 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/15/2014 5:26 PM, Brett Cannon wrote: To finish my timing work I decided to see where Py_InitializeEx_Private() spends its time. The following is a breakdown measured in microseconds running using -E: INIT: setlocale: 11 envvar: 2 random init: 2 interp creation: 15 thread creation: 6 GIL: 10

Re: [Python-Dev] Timing breakdown of Py_InitializeEx_Private()

2014-04-16 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/16/2014 3:46 AM, Christian Heimes wrote: On 16.04.2014 04:35, Guido van Rossum wrote: Well, that's the part that does "import site". Anything that speeds up the code in Lib/site.py might help. :-) Antoine, Victor and me have implemented a couple of speed ups for "import site" already. I r

Re: [Python-Dev] this is what happens if you freeze all the modules required for startup

2014-04-16 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/16/2014 12:25 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: Am 14.04.14 23:51, schrieb Brett Cannon: It was realized during PyCon that since we are freezing importlib we could now consider freezing all the modules to cut out having to stat or read them from disk. [...] Thoughts? They still get read from

Re: [Python-Dev] this is what happens if you freeze all the modules required for startup

2014-04-16 Thread Terry Reedy
> On Wednesday, April 16, 2014 2:57:35 PM, Terry Reedy <mailto:tjre...@udel.edu>> wrote: > PS. In the user process sys.modules, there are numerous null > entries like these: > >>> sys.modules['idlelib.os'] > >>> sys.m

Re: [Python-Dev] Language Summit notes

2014-04-16 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/16/2014 6:26 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: AP exams are starting to allow Python, but it's 10% of the AP CS exams. "AP"? (I thought that was me, but it sounds unlikely :-)) AP = Advanced Placement. US and Canadian high school students who have taken advanced (AP) courses equivalent to Amer

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 469: Restoring the iterkeys/values/items() methods

2014-04-18 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/18/2014 10:31 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote: After spending some time talking to the folks at the PyCon Twisted sprints, they persuaded me that adding back the iterkeys/values/items methods for mapping objects would be a nice way to eliminate a key porting hassle for them (and likely others), witho

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 469: Restoring the iterkeys/values/items() methods

2014-04-19 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/19/2014 10:52 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote: Does everyone involved know that "for x in d.iterkeys()" is equivalent to "for x in d" Looking at uses I found by searching code.ohloh.net, the answer is either 'No, people sometimes add a redundant .iterkeys()' or 'people are writing non-dict ma

Re: [Python-Dev] Fw: fail to fetch python-dev for raspian with details of error message

2014-04-20 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/20/2014 8:25 PM, Ken Chan wrote: Please send this instead to python-list, where you might find other raspian users. Pydev is for development of future version of python, not use of current versions. -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing lis

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 469: Restoring the iterkeys/values/items() methods

2014-04-21 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/21/2014 1:39 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: OK, I've now updated the PEP to better described the *problem* (rather than skipping ahead to proposing a specific solution - exactly what I was asking people *not* to do at the language summit!), Looks great. I think the analysis should be part of a d

Re: [Python-Dev] Patches in need of review

2014-04-23 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/23/2014 3:27 PM, Claudiu Popa wrote: * http://bugs.python.org/issue16104 `Use multiprocessing in compileall script` This patch adds a new command line argument to `compileall`, also a new argument to `compileall.compile_dir`, which controls the number of worker processes used to compile a

Re: [Python-Dev] pep8 reasoning

2014-04-24 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/24/2014 12:36 PM, Tim Peters wrote: There's been a bit of serious study on this. The results are still open to interpretation, though ;-) Here's a nice summary: http://whathecode.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/camelcase-vs-underscores-scientific-showdown/ The linked poll is almost evenly spli

Re: [Python-Dev] ConfigParser mangles keys with special chars

2014-04-25 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/25/2014 12:46 PM, Fred Drake wrote: On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 10:22 AM, Florian Bruhin wrote: While it seems ConfigParser doesn't do any escaping as all, I'm thinking it should at least raise some exception when such a value is trying to be set. I'd expect writing something and then reading

Re: [Python-Dev] ConfigParser mangles keys with special chars

2014-04-25 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/25/2014 1:41 PM, Ethan Furman wrote: On 04/25/2014 09:46 AM, Fred Drake wrote: At this point, it would be a backward-incompatible change, so it's unlikely such a change could be allowed to affect existing code. All bug-fixes are backwards-incompatible, yet we fix them anyway. ;) It see

Re: [Python-Dev] pep8 reasoning

2014-04-27 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/27/2014 3:34 PM, Chris Barker wrote: On Sun, Apr 27, 2014 at 9:40 AM, Barry Warsaw mailto:ba...@python.org>> wrote: On Apr 26, 2014, at 12:33 AM, Janzert wrote: >So the one example under discussion is: >foo = long_function_name( > var_one, var_two, > var_three,

Re: [Python-Dev] API and process questions (sparked by Claudiu Popa on 16104

2014-04-28 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/28/2014 4:24 PM, Claudiu Popa wrote: This issue raised too much bikeshedding. To wrap it up, I'll modify the patch with the following: - processes renamed to workers - `workers` defaults to 1 - When `workers` is equal to 0, then `os.cpu_count` will be used - When `workers` > 1, multiple pro

Re: [Python-Dev] pep8 reasoning

2014-04-28 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/28/2014 2:12 PM, Chris Barker wrote: I don't think anyone should write code with variable width fonts, The problem is that fixed pitch does not work well for even a half-way complete unicode font and I don't know that there are any available. As far as I know, my Windows 7 only came wit

Re: [Python-Dev] Python-Dev Digest, Vol 129, Issue 81

2014-04-28 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/28/2014 5:01 PM, Brett Cannon wrote: On Mon Apr 28 2014 at 4:58:35 PM, Mike Miller mailto:python-...@mgmiller.net>> wrote: Hi, note the pep, it makes allowances for security enhancements. The PEP in question is about fixing fundamentally broken security issues in Python 2.7 (e.g. up

Re: [Python-Dev] pep8 reasoning

2014-04-28 Thread Terry Reedy
On 4/28/2014 7:13 PM, Chris Barker wrote: On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Terry Reedy mailto:tjre...@udel.edu>> wrote: I don't think anyone should write code with variable width fonts, The problem is that fixed pitch does not work well for even a half-way complete u

Re: [Python-Dev] Existence of pythonNN.zip in sys.path

2014-05-06 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/5/2014 5:32 PM, Anthony Tuininga wrote: Hi, I am the author of cx_Freeze which creates "frozen" executables from Python scripts. To this point I have been using frozen modules (compiled C) but this has the side effect of bundling parts of Python with a cx_Freeze release -- and this has bitt

Re: [Python-Dev] Python under the sea and in space

2014-05-06 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/4/2014 11:02 PM, Jessica McKellar wrote: Hi folks, I'm trying to determine the greatest depth (in the ocean or underground) and highest altitude at which Python code has been executed. Please note that I'm interested in where the code was executed, and not, say, where data that Python anal

Re: [Python-Dev] Existence of pythonNN.zip in sys.path

2014-05-07 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/7/2014 7:45 AM, Eric V. Smith wrote: On 5/6/2014 1:14 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: On 5/5/2014 5:32 PM, Anthony Tuininga wrote: Hi, I am the author of cx_Freeze which creates "frozen" executables from Python scripts. To this point I have been using frozen modules (compiled C) but th

Re: [Python-Dev] pip: cdecimal an externally hosted file and may be unreliable [sic]

2014-05-09 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/9/2014 2:12 PM, Donald Stufft wrote: On May 9, 2014, at 1:28 PM, R. David Murray wrote: I don't understand this. Why it is our responsibility to provide a free service for a large project to repeatedly download a set of files they need? Why does it not make more sense for them to down

Re: [Python-Dev] Returning None from methods that mutate object state

2014-05-17 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/17/2014 1:14 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: During a conversation today, I realised that the convention of returning None from methods that change an object's state isn't captured the Programming Recommendations section of PEP 8. Specifically, I'm referring to this behaviour: [].sort() is None T

[Python-Dev] Merge conflicts from unmerged 3.4 commits, what do I do?

2014-05-18 Thread Terry Reedy
An hour ago, I pulled recent commits to my local repository. I edited a couple of files, wrote commit messages, and pulled again, nothing new. I then did the usual: commit 2.7, commit 3.4, merge to 3.5. Problem: merge conflicts from 6 files I have never touched. Include/patchlevel.h Lib/distuti

Re: [Python-Dev] Merge conflicts from unmerged 3.4 commits, what do I do?

2014-05-18 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/19/2014 1:31 AM, Raymond Hettinger wrote: On May 19, 2014, at 5:52 AM, Terry Reedy mailto:tjre...@udel.edu>> wrote: I stopped at this point and ran diskcheck. I then looked at the DAG and noticed 5 previous 3.4 patches that were not merged into 3.5: rev 90750 and 90751, Larry Hasti

Re: [Python-Dev] Merge conflicts from unmerged 3.4 commits, what do I do?

2014-05-20 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/19/2014 2:08 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: On 5/19/2014 1:31 AM, Raymond Hettinger wrote: To get my repo back into a usable state, I ran "hg update --clean" py35% hg update --clean % hg update --clean abort: index 00changelog.i unknown format 2! After exiting Workbench and

Re: [Python-Dev] Returning None from methods that mutate object state

2014-05-20 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/19/2014 10:20 AM, Hrvoje Niksic wrote: On 05/17/2014 10:26 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: > When list.pop was added, the convention was changed to > "do not return the 'self' parameter" Do you have a reference for this? I think the fact that Guido accepted, in 20

Re: [Python-Dev] Returning None from methods that mutate object state

2014-05-20 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/20/2014 12:30 PM, Chris Barker wrote: [].sort() is None > True "ABC".lower() is None > False Is there a reference anywhere as to *why* the convention in Python is to do it that way? In short, reducing bugs induced by mutation of aliased objects. Functional

Re: [Python-Dev] Language Summit Follow-Up

2014-05-28 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/29/2014 1:22 AM, INADA Naoki wrote: We would like to stress that we don't believe anything on this list is as important as the continuing efforts that everyone in the broader ecosystem is making. If you just want to ease the transition by working on anything at all, the best use of your tim

Re: [Python-Dev] Language Summit Follow-Up

2014-05-29 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/28/2014 6:26 PM, Glyph Lefkowitz wrote: I hope it's not controversial to say that most new Python code is still being written against Python 2.7 today; Given that Python 3 downloads now outnumber Python 2 downloads, I think 'most' might be an overstatement. But I think it a moot point.

[Python-Dev] Updating turtle.py

2014-05-30 Thread Terry Reedy
I have two areas of questions about updating turtle.py. First the module itself, then a turtle tracker issue versus code cleanup policies. A. Unlike most stdlib modules, turtle is copyrighted and licensed by an individual. ''' # turtle.py: a Tkinter based turtle graphics module for Python # Ve

Re: [Python-Dev] Updating turtle.py

2014-05-31 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/31/2014 2:05 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: Am 31.05.14 05:32, schrieb Terry Reedy: I have two areas of questions about updating turtle.py. First the module itself, then a turtle tracker issue versus code cleanup policies. A. Unlike most stdlib modules, turtle is copyrighted and l

Re: [Python-Dev] Updating turtle.py

2014-06-02 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/2/2014 3:12 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: Even if we had unlimited reviewer resources (which we don't), mechanical code cleanups tend to fall under the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" guideline. That then sets us up for a conflict between folks just getting started and trying to be helpful, and

Re: [Python-Dev] Internal representation of strings and Micropython

2014-06-04 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/4/2014 3:41 AM, Jeff Allen wrote: Jython uses UTF-16 internally -- probably the only sensible choice in a Python that can call Java. Indexing is O(N), fundamentally. By "fundamentally", I mean for those strings that have not yet noticed that they contain no supplementary (>0x) characters

Re: [Python-Dev] Internal representation of strings and Micropython

2014-06-04 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/4/2014 3:41 AM, Jeff Allen wrote: Jython uses UTF-16 internally -- probably the only sensible choice in a Python that can call Java. Indexing is O(N), fundamentally. By "fundamentally", I mean for those strings that have not yet noticed that they contain no supplementary (>0x) characters

Re: [Python-Dev] Internal representation of strings and Micropython

2014-06-04 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/4/2014 5:14 PM, Paul Sokolovsky wrote: That said, and unlike previous attempts to develop a small Python implementations (which of course existed), we're striving to be exactly a Python language implementation, not a Python-like language implementation. As there's no formal, implementation-

Re: [Python-Dev] Internal representation of strings and Micropython

2014-06-04 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/4/2014 6:52 PM, Paul Sokolovsky wrote: "Well" is subjective (or should be defined formally based on the requirements). With my MicroPython hat on, an implementation which receives a string, transcodes it, leading to bigger size, just to immediately transcode back and send out - is awful, en

Re: [Python-Dev] Internal representation of strings and Micropython

2014-06-04 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/4/2014 6:54 PM, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: 05.06.14 00:21, Terry Reedy написав(ла): On 6/4/2014 3:41 AM, Jeff Allen wrote: Jython uses UTF-16 internally -- probably the only sensible choice in a Python that can call Java. Indexing is O(N), fundamentally. By "fundamentally", I mean

Re: [Python-Dev] [numpy wishlist] Interpreter support for temporary elision in third-party classes

2014-06-05 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/5/2014 4:51 PM, Nathaniel Smith wrote: In fact, AFAICT it's 100% correct for libraries being called by regular python code (which is why I'm able to quote benchmarks at you :-)). The bytecode eval loop always holds a reference to all operands, and then immediately DECREFs them after the ope

Re: [Python-Dev] Internal representation of strings and Micropython

2014-06-06 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/6/2014 4:53 AM, Hrvoje Niksic wrote: On 06/04/2014 05:52 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote: Out of idle curiosity is there anything that stops MicroPython, or any other implementation for that matter, from providing views of a string rather than copying every time? IIRC memoryviews in CPython rely

Re: [Python-Dev] Division of tool labour in porting Python 2 code to 2/3

2014-06-06 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/6/2014 12:37 PM, Brett Cannon wrote: After Glyph and Alex's email about their asks for assisting in writing Python 2/3 code, it got me thinking about where in the toolchain various warnings and such should go in order to help direct energy to help develop whatever future toolchain to assist

Re: [Python-Dev] Moving Python 3.5 on Windows to a new compiler

2014-06-06 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/6/2014 6:47 PM, Nathaniel Smith wrote: On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 11:43 PM, Sturla Molden wrote: Brett Cannon wrote: Nope. A new minor release of Python is a massive undertaking which is why we have saved ourselves the hassle of doing a Python 2.8 or not giving a clear signal as to when Pyt

Re: [Python-Dev] Moving Python 3.5 on Windows to a new compiler

2014-06-06 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/6/2014 9:13 PM, Donald Stufft wrote: On Jun 6, 2014, at 9:05 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: If you are suggesting that a Windows compiler change should be invisible to non-Windows users, I agree. Let us assume that /pcbuild remains for those who have vc2008 and that /pcbuild14 is added (and

Re: [Python-Dev] cpython and python debugger documentation

2014-06-09 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/9/2014 12:26 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote: On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 7:50 AM, Paul Sokolovsky mailto:pmis...@gmail.com>> wrote: Hello, On Mon, 09 Jun 2014 14:01:18 + Brett Cannon mailto:bcan...@gmail.com>> wrote: > On Sat Jun 07 2014 at 5:55:29 PM, Le Pa mailto:lpan...@gma

Re: [Python-Dev] Criticism of execfile() removal in Python3

2014-06-09 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/9/2014 11:03 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 05:23:12AM +0300, Paul Sokolovsky wrote: execfile() builtin function was removed in 3.0. Because it was hardly ever used. For short bits of code, it is usually inferior to exec with a string in the file. For substantial bit

Re: [Python-Dev] Documentation Oversight

2014-06-10 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/10/2014 2:51 PM, Hasan Diwan wrote: From the csv module pydoc: "The optional "dialect" parameter is discussed below" The discussion is actually above the method. Present in 2.7.6. Bug reports should be posted on the tracker rather than sent here. Short doc reports like this can be sent

Re: [Python-Dev] Returning Windows file attribute information via os.stat()

2014-06-11 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/11/2014 9:27 AM, Ben Hoyt wrote: What would be the next steps to get this to happen? Open an issue on bugs.python.org and submit a patch with tests? Yep! Okay, I've done step one (opened an issue on bugs.python.org), and hope to provide a patch in the next few weeks if no-one else does (

Re: [Python-Dev] Informal educator feedback on PEP 572 (was Re: 2018 Python Language Summit coverage, last part)

2018-06-28 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/28/2018 8:05 AM, Baptiste Carvello wrote: Le 28/06/2018 à 01:31, Greg Ewing a écrit : Well, I remain profoundly unconvinced that writing comprehensions with side effects is ever a good idea, and Tim's examples did nothing to change that. Comprehensions with side effects feel scary indeed.

Re: [Python-Dev] We now have C code coverage!

2018-06-28 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/24/2018 5:03 AM, Ammar Askar wrote: Is it possible, given that we are not paying for those reports, to customize the 'exclude_lines' definitions? Do you want to exclude python code or C code? Python code. For Python code, coverage.py also has some comments you can put down to exclude l

Re: [Python-Dev] Informal educator feedback on PEP 572 (was Re: 2018 Python Language Summit coverage, last part)

2018-06-28 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/28/2018 11:21 PM, Tim Peters wrote: [somewhere below] this is the last time I'm going to repeat it all again ;-) For me, this is your most convincing exposition and summary of why the proposal is at least ok. Thank you. [Chris] > yes, it was a contrived example, but the simplest one

Re: [Python-Dev] We now have C code coverage!

2018-06-29 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/29/2018 9:25 AM, Brett Cannon wrote: On Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 21:28 Terry Reedy, <mailto:tjre...@udel.edu>> wrote: [question about our coverage bot] Everything is either covered by the Travis or codecov configuration files which are both checked into the cpython repo. (I'm

Re: [Python-Dev] Informal educator feedback on PEP 572 (was Re: 2018 Python Language Summit coverage, last part)

2018-06-30 Thread Terry Reedy
On 6/30/2018 5:35 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: I've given reasons why I believe that people will expect assignments in comprehensions to occur in the local scope. Aside from the special case of loop variables, people don't think of comprehensions as a separate scope. I think this is because comp

Re: [Python-Dev] Failing tests (on a Linux distro)

2018-07-02 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/2/2018 3:38 AM, Petr Viktorin wrote: And while I'm responding here, a bit of reflection and a heads-up: What Fedora as a distro should do better next time is re-build the entire ecosystem with a new Python version. For 3.7 we started doing that too late, and there are way too many project

Re: [Python-Dev] Informal educator feedback on PEP 572 (was Re: 2018 Python Language Summit coverage, last part)

2018-07-03 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/3/2018 2:42 AM, Tim Peters wrote: So if we had it to do over again I'd sigh and accept "generator comprehensions" anyway.  It's been an eternal PITA - and especially in the PEP 572 threads! - to keep typing "comprehensions or generator expressions".  Then again, if I had the power of Guid

Re: [Python-Dev] Examples for PEP 572

2018-07-03 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/3/2018 5:37 PM, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: I like programming languages in which all are expressions (including function declarations, branching and loops) and you can use an assignment at any point, but Python is built on other ways, and I like Python too. PEP 572 looks violating several Pyt

Re: [Python-Dev] Examples for PEP 572

2018-07-04 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/4/2018 9:35 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Wed, Jul 04, 2018 at 05:02:07PM +1000, Chris Angelico wrote: On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 4:07 PM, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: "Assignment is a statement" -- that's exactly the point under discussion. I believe that this is Chris quoting and commenting

Re: [Python-Dev] Examples for PEP 572

2018-07-04 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/4/2018 1:50 PM, Yury Selivanov wrote: On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 1:35 PM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote: On 04.07.2018 11:54, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: while total != (total := total + term): term *= mx2 / (i*(i+1)) i += 2 return total This code looks clever that the original

Re: [Python-Dev] Examples for PEP 572

2018-07-04 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/4/2018 2:32 PM, Sven R. Kunze wrote: Sorry for adding yet another mail. :-( On 04.07.2018 10:54, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: Sorry, this PEP was rewritten so many times that I missed your Appendix. while total != (total := total + term):     term *= mx2 / (i*(i+1))     i += 2 return total

Re: [Python-Dev] Examples for PEP 572

2018-07-04 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/4/2018 3:34 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Wed, Jul 04, 2018 at 03:24:08PM -0400, Terry Reedy wrote: On 7/4/2018 9:35 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Wed, Jul 04, 2018 at 05:02:07PM +1000, Chris Angelico wrote: On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 4:07 PM, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: "

Re: [Python-Dev] Naming comprehension syntax [was Re: Informal educator feedback on PEP 572 ...]

2018-07-06 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/6/2018 11:51 AM, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal via Python-Dev wrote: via phone... Are we just having fun here? I floated the idea as a trial balloon to see what response it got. Or might we actually start using a new naming convention for the-syntax-formerly-known-as-generator-expressions?

Re: [Python-Dev] Naming comprehension syntax [was Re: Informal educator feedback on PEP 572 ...]

2018-07-06 Thread Terry Reedy
In response to Guido's reply to my post fleshing out my idea to use 'generator|list|set|dict builder', On 7/6/2018 7:58 PM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote: According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_comprehension#History, the term's known from at least 1977 and comes from such influenti

Re: [Python-Dev] Naming comprehension syntax [was Re: Informal educator feedback on PEP 572 ...]

2018-07-06 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/6/2018 7:31 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 4:19 PM Terry Reedy <mailto:tjre...@udel.edu>> wrote: Since Guido, the first respondent, did not immediately shoot the idea down, I intend to flesh it out and make it more concrete. Maybe I should have sho

Re: [Python-Dev] Call for prudence about PEP-572

2018-07-07 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/7/2018 12:53 PM, Tim Peters wrote: [Guido] ... As to why you might want to use := in a function call, I could imagine writing     if validate(name := re.search(pattern, line).group(1)):     return name If name has to be non-blank to pass validate, one can avoid

Re: [Python-Dev] Time for 3.4.9 and 3.5.6

2018-07-08 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/8/2018 1:05 PM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote: I'll use this opportunity to remind you that 3.4 build is broken -- it can't be built from start to installer with the instructions given because of outside factors (CPython has migrated from Hg to Git). https://bugs.python.org/issue31623

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 572: Assignment Expressions -- intention to accept, near-final draft

2018-07-09 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/9/2018 9:00 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: We strongly prefer feedback in the form of Pull Requests to the peps repo (the file is at https://github.com/python/peps/blob/master/pep-0572.rst ). I couple of people have said they don't kn

Re: [Python-Dev] [issue34221] Any plans to combine collections.OrderedDict with dict

2018-07-26 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/26/2018 2:15 AM, Raymond Hettinger wrote: On Jul 25, 2018, at 8:23 PM, INADA Naoki wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 12:04 PM Zhao Lee wrote: Since Python 3.7,dicts remember the order that items were inserted, so any plans to combine collections.OrderedDict with dict? https://docs.pytho

Re: [Python-Dev] Using Python on a fork-less POSIX-like OS

2018-07-30 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/30/2018 4:26 AM, Barath Aron wrote: On 07/30/2018 10:23 AM, Victor Stinner wrote: Python 3.8 will support os.posix_spawn(). I would like to see it used whenever possible instead of fork+exec, since it's faster and it can be safer on some platforms. Pablo Salgado is your guy for that. Vic

Re: [Python-Dev] [PEP 576/580] Comparing PEP 576 and 580

2018-08-01 Thread Terry Reedy
On 8/1/2018 6:17 AM, Jeroen Demeyer wrote: On 2018-07-31 11:12, INADA Naoki wrote: Any PEP won't be accepted in few month, because we don't have flow to accept PEPs for now. Is that certain? I haven't been following the process discussions, so I'm just asking the question. For example, given

Re: [Python-Dev] Problem in importing python packages under python 3.6 environment

2018-08-09 Thread Terry Reedy
On 8/9/2018 8:45 AM, Poornima .D. wrote: I have limited knowledge on python development.  I am trying to write a test application which needs to import from many packages across mutliple directories. I tried using an environment variable and appending to sys.path variable so that import Cla

Re: [Python-Dev] Python 2.7 EOL date

2018-08-24 Thread Terry Reedy
On 8/23/2018 8:14 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: On Aug 23, 2018, at 15:23, Eric V. Smith wrote: On 8/23/2018 4:30 PM, Victor Stinner wrote: Hi, The reference is the PEP 373 "Python 2.7 Release Schedule". See the "Update" section: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0373/#update We could probably

Re: [Python-Dev] Python 2.7 EOL date

2018-08-24 Thread Terry Reedy
On 8/23/2018 2:53 PM, Collin Anderson wrote: Hi All, Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but I noticed the Python 2.7 EOL date was recently set to Jan 1st, 2020. My understanding was Python releases get 5 years of support from their initial release, '5' is a rounded, rather than exact

Re: [Python-Dev] We cannot fix all issues: let's close XML security issues (not fix them)

2018-09-07 Thread Terry Reedy
On 9/6/2018 11:05 AM, Ryan Gonzalez wrote: Thought: what if there's a label on the bug tracker meaning roughly "we're probably not going to fix this anytime soon, but we won't mind someone stepping up"? Not needed. Good patches are always welcome. And if there is no current PR or other infor

Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

2018-09-09 Thread Terry Reedy
On 9/9/2018 1:49 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 23:11:27 -0400 "Joseph C. Sible" wrote: I'm used to signing CLA's that require nothing beyond a name and a check box. When I went to sign the PSF Contributor Agreement so I can submit a PR for CPython, I was surprised to see that it

Re: [Python-Dev] Official citation for Python

2018-09-09 Thread Terry Reedy
On 9/9/2018 3:43 PM, Jacqueline Kazil wrote: The PSF has received a few inquiries asking the question — “How do I cite Python?”So, I am reaching out to you all to figure this out. (For those that don’t know my background, I have been in academia for a bit as a Ph.D student and have worked at t

Re: [Python-Dev] Official citation for Python

2018-09-09 Thread Terry Reedy
, the Reference Manual, in the most common formats. On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 11:33 PM Terry Reedy <mailto:tjre...@udel.edu>> wrote: On 9/9/2018 3:43 PM, Jacqueline Kazil wrote: > The PSF has received a few inquiries asking the question — > “How do I cite Python?”So, I am reachi

Re: [Python-Dev] Store startup modules as C structures for 20%+ startup speed improvement?

2018-09-19 Thread Terry Reedy
On 9/18/2018 2:38 PM, Steve Dower wrote: The primary benefit of the importlib hook approach is that it would not require rebuilding CPython each time you make a change. If one edits a .c or .h file, one must rebuild to test. If one edits a .py module, one does not, and it would be a major nu

Re: [Python-Dev] Change in Python 3's "round" behavior

2018-09-30 Thread Terry Reedy
On 9/26/2018 7:26 AM, j...@math.brown.edu wrote: To paraphrase: 1. Where was the 3.0 change discussed? 2. What was the rationale? I think these have been answered as well as possible. 3. Can the change be reverted? It 'could be', but will not be reverted? 4. Should something be added to the d

Re: [Python-Dev] dear core-devs

2018-10-02 Thread Terry Reedy
On 10/2/2018 12:41 PM, Simon Cross wrote: Are there any core devs that Michael or Erik could collaborate with? Rather than rely on adhoc patch review from random core developers. You two might collaborate with each other to the extent of reviewing some of each other's PRs. That still leaves t

Re: [Python-Dev] dear core-devs

2018-10-02 Thread Terry Reedy
On 10/2/2018 7:16 PM, Michael Felt wrote: On 10/2/2018 11:34 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: On 10/2/2018 12:41 PM, Simon Cross wrote: Are there any core devs that Michael or Erik could collaborate with? Rather than rely on adhoc patch review from random core developers. You two might collaborate

Re: [Python-Dev] Petr Viktorin as BDFL-Delegate for PEP 580

2018-10-03 Thread Terry Reedy
On 10/3/2018 8:12 AM, Jeroen Demeyer wrote: Hello, I would like to propose Petr Viktorin as BDFL-Delegate for PEP 580, titled "The C call protocol". He has co-authored several PEPs (PEP 394, PEP 489, PEP 534, PEP 547, PEP 573), several of which involve extension modules. Petr has agreed to

Re: [Python-Dev] Petr Viktorin as BDFL-Delegate for PEP 580

2018-10-03 Thread Terry Reedy
On 10/3/2018 5:27 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 2:13 PM Terry Reedy <mailto:tjre...@udel.edu>> wrote: A language syntax-change proposal would be something else. IMO changes to the C API should be taken just as seriously -- the potential for breaking the worl

Re: [Python-Dev] Arbitrary non-identifier string keys when using **kwargs

2018-10-07 Thread Terry Reedy
On 10/7/2018 1:34 PM, Chris Barker via Python-Dev wrote: On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 3:01 PM Brett Cannon > wrote: I'm also fine with saying that keys in **kwargs that are not proper identifiers is an implementation detail. It's not just **kwargs -- you can also use

Re: [Python-Dev] Servicing pypi.python.org

2018-10-17 Thread Terry Reedy
On 10/17/2018 8:32 PM, Facundo Batista wrote: Hola! tl;dr: can we have a (semi)permanent redirect from pypi.python.org to pypi.org? pypi is run by a different group from pydev core developers. Maybe someone here know what the current list is. -- Terry Jan Reedy __

Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASE] Python 3.7.1 and 3.6.7 are now available

2018-10-20 Thread Terry Reedy
On 10/20/2018 1:37 PM, Ned Deily wrote: We are also happy to announce the availability of Python 3.6.7, the next maintenance release of Python 3.6: https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-367/ Am I correct in thinking that there will be just one more maintenance release before go

<    1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10   >