[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 622 railroaded through?

2020-07-03 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/1/2020 4:14 PM, Rob Cliffe via Python-Dev wrote: I have an uneasy feeling about this PEP. I can understand that. AFAIK the usual procedure for adding a new feature to Python is:     An idea is raised and attracts some support.     Someone sufficiently motivated writes a PEP.     The P

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 622 version 2 (Structural Pattern Matching)

2020-07-12 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/11/2020 6:31 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: Hm... Just the fact that people have been arguing both sides so convincingly makes me worry that something bigger is amiss. I think we're either better off without `else` (since the indentation of `case _` cannot be disputed :-), or we have to revi

[Python-Dev] Re: Another take on PEP 622

2020-07-17 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/16/2020 9:51 PM, Tobias Kohn wrote: Hi Everyone, I feel there are still quite a few misconceptions around concerning PEP 622 and the new pattern matching feature it proposes.  Please allow me therefore to take another attempt at explaining the ideas behind PEP 622 with a different approa

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 622 version 2 (Structural Pattern Matching)

2020-07-17 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/17/2020 7:23 AM, emmanuel.coir...@caissedesdepots.fr wrote: Hello everyone, I'm sorry if my proposition has already being said, or even withdrawn, but I think that capture variables shouldn't be as implicit as they are now. I've looked at the PEP very quickly, jumping on the examples to

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 622 version 2 (Structural Pattern Matching)

2020-07-18 Thread Terry Reedy
On 7/18/2020 6:23 AM, emmanuel.coir...@caissedesdepots.fr wrote: Ethan Furman wrote: The problem with any kind of sigil/keyword is that it becomes line noise -- we would have to train ourselves to ignore them in order to see the structure and variables we are actually interested in. Once we bec

[Python-Dev] Re: How about copying the typing module docs from 3.10 to 3.9?

2020-08-11 Thread Terry Reedy
On 8/11/2020 7:59 PM, Luciano Ramalho wrote: I reorganized the typing module docs, Guido made suggestions, reviewed and merged it to master. Right now everything in typing.rst [1] applies to 3.9 as well as 3.10. [1] https://docs.python.org/3.10/library/typing.html How about copying the typing

[Python-Dev] Re: Procedure for trivial PRs

2020-08-13 Thread Terry Reedy
On 8/13/2020 4:56 PM, Mariatta wrote:  when landed remove the "need backport tags" you added... If done correctly, the "needs backport .." labels got removed automatically. We have detailed info here: https://devguide.python.org/committing/#backporting-changes-to-an-older-version T

[Python-Dev] Re: PR stuck in Travis

2020-08-21 Thread Terry Reedy
On 8/21/2020 2:54 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: Does closing and reopening the PR work? https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/21466 Yes, ready to merge. -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe sen

[Python-Dev] Re: pty2

2020-09-07 Thread Terry Reedy
On 9/6/2020 10:38 PM, Soumendra Ganguly wrote: Hello. I am currently using a tiling window manager ( i3wm ). While using pty.spawn(), resizing xterm's X window also resizes the underlying terminal size; as a result, output of commands such as ls(1) become incorrectly laid out, making them

[Python-Dev] Re: docs: I'd like new features to references their PEPs

2020-09-14 Thread Terry Reedy
On 9/14/2020 5:25 AM, Cameron Simpson wrote: On 14Sep2020 01:16, Ned Deily wrote: I'll make some PRs. How to submit? Here, or a BPO or something? My suggestion would be to open one BPO issue for "adding PEP references to documentation" and then creating PRs as needed against it. As you prob

[Python-Dev] Re: PR checks hang because travis does not report back to github

2020-10-04 Thread Terry Reedy
On 10/4/2020 2:32 PM, Mariatta wrote: This is a known issue and I have brought it up in GitHub OS Maintainers Feedback Group. It happens to other projects as well. Currently we have branch protection rule where even administrators couldnt merge the PR unless all the required checks passed. P

[Python-Dev] Re: PEP 617 -- New PEG parser for CPython

2020-10-07 Thread Terry Reedy
On 10/6/2020 2:02 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: That's appreciated, but I think what's needed more is someone who actually wants to undertake this project. It's not just a matter of running a small script for hours -- someone will have to come up with a way to fuzz that is actually useful for thi

[Python-Dev] Re: Performance benchmarks for 3.9

2020-10-14 Thread Terry Reedy
On 10/14/2020 9:16 AM, Pablo Galindo Salgado wrote: You can check these benchmarks I am talking about by: * Go here: https://speed.python.org/comparison/ * In the left bar, select "lto-pgo latest in branch '3.9'" and "lto-pgo latest in branch '3.8'" At the moment, there are only results for

Re: [Python-Dev] Tracker archeology

2009-02-11 Thread Terry Reedy
Jim Baker wrote: +1 on the cleanup: reading the bug description of http://bugs.python.org/issue1533164, this will also help Jython. Now I know why we see scenarios of package with setup.cfg with optimize=1: Indeed, this is a well-known issue. Many packages put an "optimize=1" in their setup.cf

[Python-Dev] Irix still supported? (was Re: Tracker archeology)

2009-02-14 Thread Terry Reedy
Can http://bugs.python.org/issue995458 "Does not build selected SGI specific modules"be closed? PEP11 lists Irix 4 as gone. What about Irix 6? http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0011/ Pep3108 notes that IRIX is no longer produced as of Dec 2006 and that Irix specific modules are gone from Py3.

Re: [Python-Dev] Small misleadingness in docs

2009-02-14 Thread Terry Reedy
Greg Ewing wrote: Georg Brandl wrote: Since I cannot imagine a scenario where you would want to have non-classes as the arguments of issubclass(), I had one today, which is what led me to discover this. I'm working on a Python-Ruby bridge that wraps Ruby objects and classes in Python objects

Re: [Python-Dev] Irix still supported? (was Re: Tracker archeology)

2009-02-14 Thread Terry Reedy
Guido van Rossum wrote: Irix is long dead and we don't support it in any form or version. On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: Can http://bugs.python.org/issue995458 "Does not build selected SGI specific modules"be closed? PEP11 lists Irix 4 as gone. What abo

Re: [Python-Dev] Irix still supported? (was Re: Tracker archeology)

2009-02-14 Thread Terry Reedy
Martin v. Löwis wrote: Terry Reedy wrote: Guido van Rossum wrote: Irix is long dead and we don't support it in any form or version. I closed the tracker issue. I will let Martin update PEP11. I think you misunderstand the purpose of PEP 11. It is not meant as a repository of platform

Re: [Python-Dev] Issues to be closed: objections?

2009-02-16 Thread Terry Reedy
Daniel (ajax) Diniz wrote: Hi, I've marked some issues (25 now) to close, mostly because: - there was no reply from OP, nor a clear justification for the issue; - there are messages explaining why the issue is invalid; - the OSes/versions of the report suggest the issue is currently invalid; How

Re: [Python-Dev] lifting of prohibition against readlines inside a "for line in file" in Py3?

2009-02-18 Thread Terry Reedy
Mitchell L Model wrote: In Digest Vol. 67, Issue 52 (13 Feb 2009) I pointed out that Python 2's prohibition against performing readlines on a file being iterated over appears to have been lifted in Python 3. I asked if this was intentional and whether it should be add to the "What's New" docume

Re: [Python-Dev] IO implementation: in C and Python?

2009-02-20 Thread Terry Reedy
Guido van Rossum wrote: On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 4:01 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Georg Brandl gmx.net> writes: I just hope everyone updates both versions when making changes to IO. My proposal is just organizational, it is neutral in terms of whether or not the Python version is correctly main

Re: [Python-Dev] ABCs and MRO

2009-03-02 Thread Terry Reedy
Paul Moore wrote: 2009/3/2 Benjamin Peterson : 2009/3/1 Paul Moore : Is it worth getting simplegeneric exposed in 3.1 (http://bugs.python.org/issue5135)? If it's going to be in 2.7, I'd like to see it hit 3.1. The patch is against trunk (for 2.7) at the moment, I'm not sure what the process wou

Re: [Python-Dev] ABCs and MRO

2009-03-02 Thread Terry Reedy
Nick Coghlan wrote: Terry Reedy wrote: As for the actual feature, I don't think it should hold up releases. Fair enough. Given that the purpose of 2.7 is a) maintenance of existing code (which can include minor new features for existing facilities), and b) easing conversion of code to

Re: [Python-Dev] ABCs and MRO

2009-03-03 Thread Terry Reedy
Nick Coghlan wrote: Terry Reedy wrote: OK, that suggests that the new feature should only be committed, if ever, to 2.7 after 3.1, when it can also be committed to 3.2 at the same time. Not really - there's already stuff in 3.0 that wasn't backported the first time around.

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 372 -- Adding an ordered directory to collections ready for pronouncement

2009-03-03 Thread Terry Reedy
Greg Ewing wrote: Giovanni Bajo wrote: Just today, I was talking with a colleague (which is learning Python right now) about "ordered dict". His first thought was a dictionary that, when iterated, would return keys in sorted order. I wonder whether "indexed list" would be a more appropriate

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 372 -- Adding an ordered directory to collections ready for pronouncement

2009-03-03 Thread Terry Reedy
Guido van Rossum wrote: Beware, deleting an item from an OrderedDict (in the current implementation) is O(N). Am I correct in presuming that that would not be true of .popitem? ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 372 -- Adding an ordered directory to collections ready for pronouncement

2009-03-04 Thread Terry Reedy
Lie Ryan wrote: Isn't ordered dictionary essentially also an "always sorted" container? It is always sorted depending on the order of insertion? I can't see any technical reason why the data structure can't accommodate them both. Can you point me to a discussion on this? Appending an item at

Re: [Python-Dev] Integrate lxml into the stdlib?

2009-03-06 Thread Terry Reedy
Stefan Behnel wrote: Martin v. Löwis wrote: I do see the point you are making here. Even if lxml gets mature and static, that doesn't necessarily apply to the external libraries it uses. However, I should note that exactly the same argument also applies to sqlite3 and gdbm, which, again, are in

Re: [Python-Dev] Integrate lxml into the stdlib?

2009-03-06 Thread Terry Reedy
Guido van Rossum wrote: On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: No, it is expected to "just work" because sqlite3 is (presumably) very careful about backwards compatibility, and because the Windows DLL API (just like the shared library API in Linux and other systems) i

Re: [Python-Dev] draft 3.1 release schedule

2009-03-09 Thread Terry Reedy
Benjamin Peterson wrote: You might also want to collect a list of serious changes that you want in this release; I know I/O in C is on the list (and without it I wouldn't consider it worth releasing) but there may be others. The developers of such features ought to be on board with delivering t

Re: [Python-Dev] reviewing patches

2009-03-09 Thread Terry Reedy
Martin v. Löwis wrote: I have seen it said that one very useful activity is reviewing patches. Of the issues in the tracker, it is not immediately clear to me what is required of such a review. Many of these patches appear to be bundled in with feature requests, leaving the question of whether th

Re: [Python-Dev] Addition of further status options to tracker

2009-03-09 Thread Terry Reedy
Brett Cannon wrote: On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 20:25, Tennessee Leeuwenburg mailto:tleeuwenb...@gmail.com>> wrote: Hi all, I am beginning reviewing some more issues in the tracker. I think it would be useful to have the following status options (new status options marked with a

Re: [Python-Dev] reviewing patches

2009-03-10 Thread Terry Reedy
Brett Cannon wrote: This is somewhat covered by components, but it's implicit. Would it be worth making this explicit? I have always wondered if people would be more willing to help out if they could easily search for pure Python code issues if that is as far as they feel comfortable. If an

Re: [Python-Dev] Regexp 2.7

2009-03-10 Thread Terry Reedy
Jared Grubb wrote: I'm not criticizing the current battery of tests, nor am I arguing that we replace them. There's a comment in the test_re.py that says that "these tests were carefully modeled to cover most of the code"... That is a very difficult statement to maintain and/or verify, especi

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 377 - allow __enter__() methods to skip the statement body

2009-03-15 Thread Terry Reedy
Aahz wrote: On Sun, Mar 15, 2009, Michael Foord wrote: It seems to me that we as a development community already made a decision when we switched to StopIteration as the primary mechanism for halting ``for`` loops. If was previously IndexError that stopped for loops, so that was not new ;-).

Re: [Python-Dev] In-place operators

2009-03-17 Thread Terry Reedy
Raymond Hettinger wrote: Does anyone think it was not a good idea to put in-place operations in the operator module? For some objects, they don't map() as well as their regular counterparts. Some in-place operations rely on the interpreter to take care of the actual assignment. I've not yet

Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects for Summer of Code

2009-03-18 Thread Terry Reedy
R. David Murray wrote: How about improving 2to3? Seems like that could be an interesting, challenging, useful, and rewarding project :). Or the much requested 3to2 using the same tools. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.

Re: [Python-Dev] Non-Core project: IDLE

2009-03-18 Thread Terry Reedy
IDLE needs lots of attention -- more than any one experienced person is likely to have ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/

Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects: 3to2

2009-03-18 Thread Terry Reedy
Antoine Pitrou wrote: Terry Reedy udel.edu> writes: Or the much requested 3to2 using the same tools. I didn't know there was such a request. I thought it was only a PyPy April fool. Some of the people who need to support both late 2.x and 3.x would prefer to write 3.x code and

Re: [Python-Dev] Core projects: 3to2

2009-03-19 Thread Terry Reedy
Antoine Pitrou wrote: Terry Reedy udel.edu> writes: Some of the people who need to support both late 2.x and 3.x would prefer to write 3.x code and backport. The OP of a current python-list thread asked whether there was any way to write something like @alias('__n

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 380 (yield from a subgenerator) comments

2009-03-22 Thread Terry Reedy
Greg Ewing wrote: As for confusion, we ignore the return values of function calls all the time, without worrying that someone might be confused by the fact that their return value doesn't go anywhere. And that's the right way to think of a yield-from expression -- as a kind of function call, not

Re: [Python-Dev] GSoC: Replace MS Windows Console with Unicode UI

2009-03-22 Thread Terry Reedy
One of the disappointments of CPython 3.0 on Windows is that the switch to unicode for text (str), coupled with the continued use of a unicode-oblivious (obtuse) user interface (MS 'Command Prompt'), means that print can no longer print all str strings, or all legal Python code (as in a traceba

Re: [Python-Dev] GSoC: Replace MS Windows Console with Unicode UI

2009-03-23 Thread Terry Reedy
Glenn Linderman wrote: One can set CMD into Unicode mode (chcp 65001)... not sure how Python reacts to that either. But even then... I tried that and others have reported doing so on python-list but no one has gotten that to work. CMD will only use fixed-width fonts, and none of the stan

Re: [Python-Dev] Non-Core project: IDLE

2009-03-23 Thread Terry Reedy
Guilherme Polo wrote: On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: IDLE needs lots of attention -- more than any one experienced person is likely to have I'm willing to step up as a student for this but I still have to write a good proposal for it. My actual concern is about m

Re: [Python-Dev] tracker status options

2009-03-24 Thread Terry Reedy
R. David Murray wrote: So, having triaged a few issues, here are my thoughts. The current workflow is roughly: o test needed o patch needed o patch review o commit review One can look at these and see what needs to be done "next". I think that in practice the above list actua

Re: [Python-Dev] "setuptools has divided the Python community"

2009-03-25 Thread Terry Reedy
Paul Moore wrote: 2009/3/25 Tarek Ziadé : Since setuptools came on the scene, I can state with some certainty that many packages which would otherwise have been distributed as bdist_wininst installers, now aren't. In some cases, only source packages are provided (on the basis that easy_install

Re: [Python-Dev] "setuptools has divided the Python community"

2009-03-25 Thread Terry Reedy
Antoine Pitrou wrote: Tarek Ziadé gmail.com> writes: But I agree that the sizes of the packages are too small now, and it has gone to far. Installing a web app like Plone is scary (+100 packages) I am working on a TurboGears2-based app and I just did a count of the .egg packages in the virtua

[Python-Dev] GPython?

2009-03-26 Thread Terry Reedy
An ars technica articla just linked to in a python-list post http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/03/google-launches-project-to-boost-python-performance-by-5x.ars calls the following project "Google launched" http://code.google.com/p/unladen-swallow/wiki/ProjectPlan (Though the project

Re: [Python-Dev] GPython?

2009-03-27 Thread Terry Reedy
Collin Winter wrote: On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 8:05 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: An ars technica articla just linked to in a python-list post http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/03/google-launches-project-to-boost-python-performance-by-5x.ars calls the following project "Google lau

Re: [Python-Dev] Bug#521275: Acknowledgement (colored prompt conflicts with cursor positioning)

2009-03-27 Thread Terry Reedy
I forwarded this to ow...@bugs.debian.org (and the actual submitter) suggesting that this was misaddressed. Debian Bug Tracking System wrote: Thank you for filing a new Bug report with Debian. This is an automatically generated reply to let you know your message has been received. Your messag

Re: [Python-Dev] Python 3.0.2

2009-03-30 Thread Terry Reedy
Barry Warsaw wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 We made a decision at the sprints today about Python 3.0. We've agreed that there will be one more release, 3.0.2 and then that's it. Because of the earlier decision to drop all support for Python 3.0 once 3.1 is released, we

Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...

2009-03-30 Thread Terry Reedy
Michael Urman wrote: We're switching to Mercurial (Hg). And two hours later, GNOME announces their migration to git is underway. I'd suspect a series of April Fools jokes, if it weren't two days early. :) Like Python, Gnome was/is using SVN and tested (at least) GIT, bzr, and hg mirrors, sta

Re: [Python-Dev] Broken import?

2009-03-30 Thread Terry Reedy
Guido van Rossum wrote: On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 6:17 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: [Adding python-dev. I'm quoting the entire original message.] On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Fredrik Lundh wrote: PS. Is it just me, or is import broken in 3.0? Consider this: [snip] Sure, it's a recursiv

Re: [Python-Dev] Broken import?

2009-03-30 Thread Terry Reedy
Terry Reedy wrote: Guido van Rossum wrote: The reason seems to be that until the outermost import (in this case p.b) is completed, while sys.modules has the (incomplete) modules 'p', 'p.a' and 'p.b', the attributes p.a and p.b aren't added until after their

Re: [Python-Dev] And the winner is...

2009-03-31 Thread Terry Reedy
Aahz wrote: On Mon, Mar 30, 2009, Terry Reedy wrote: Michael Urman wrote: Guido: We're switching to Mercurial (Hg). And two hours later, GNOME announces their migration to git is underway. I'd suspect a series of April Fools jokes, if it weren't two days early. :) Like Pytho

Re: [Python-Dev] Getting values stored inside sets

2009-04-03 Thread Terry Reedy
Hrvoje Niksic wrote: I've stumbled upon an oddity using sets. It's trivial to test if a value is in the set, but it appears to be impossible to retrieve a stored value, Set elements, by definition, do not have keys or position by which to grab. When they do, use a dict or list. other tha

Re: [Python-Dev] Mercurial?

2009-04-04 Thread Terry Reedy
Christian Heimes wrote: Martin v. Löwis wrote: I would personally remove all non-mercurial stuff out of PEP 374, and retitle it, but that would be your choice. I suggest we keep the old PEP and start a new one about Hg exclusively. The original PEP 374 has cost Brett a lot of time. It would be

Re: [Python-Dev] Mercurial?

2009-04-04 Thread Terry Reedy
Martin v. Löwis wrote: I second not tossing the data and history. It serves as partial justification for the decision, which has been and will occasionally again be discussed on python-list. It's in subversion, so the history won't be tossed. I know; I should have been more exact: not hidden

Re: [Python-Dev] decorator module in stdlib?

2009-04-07 Thread Terry Reedy
Daniel Fetchinson wrote: The decorator module [1] written by Michele Simionato is a very useful tool for maintaining function signatures while applying a decorator. Many different projects implement their own versions of the same functionality, for example turbogears has its own utility for this,

Re: [Python-Dev] pyc files, constant folding and borderline portability issues

2009-04-07 Thread Terry Reedy
Cesare Di Mauro wrote: On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 07:22PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: In my experience it's better to discover a bug at compile time rather than at running time. That's my point though, which you seem to be ignoring: if the user explicitly writes "1/0" it is not likely to be a bug. That's

Re: [Python-Dev] pyc files, constant folding and borderline portability issues

2009-04-07 Thread Terry Reedy
Alexandru Moșoi wrote: From: "Cesare Di Mauro" So if Python will generate LOAD_CONST 1 LOAD_CONST 2 BINARY_ADD the constant folding code will simply replace them with a single LOAD_CONST 3 When working with such kind of optimizations, the temptation is to apply them at any sit

Re: [Python-Dev] Dropping bytes "support" in json

2009-04-10 Thread Terry Reedy
gl...@divmod.com wrote: On 03:21 am, ncogh...@gmail.com wrote: Barry Warsaw wrote: I don't know whether the parameter thing will work or not, but you're probably right that we need to get the bytes-everywhere API first. Given that json is a wire protocol, that sounds like the right approa

Re: [Python-Dev] Needing help to change the grammar

2009-04-12 Thread Terry Reedy
Harry (Thiago Leucz Astrizi) wrote: Yes, I have plans to ask for help in the brazilian Python mailing list when I finish to prepare the C source code for this project. Then I expect to receive help to translate the python modules for this new language. There's a lot of work to do. There are on

Re: [Python-Dev] Summary of Python tracker Issues

2009-04-24 Thread Terry Reedy
Python tracker wrote: [snip] In going through this, I notice a lot of effort by Mark Dickenson and others to get some details of numbers computation and display right in time for 3.1. As a certain-to-be beneficiary, I want to thank all who contributed. Terry Jan Reedy _

Re: [Python-Dev] Tuples and underorderable types

2009-04-24 Thread Terry Reedy
Raymond Hettinger wrote: Does anyone have any ideas about what to do with issue 5830 and handling the problem in a general way (not just for sched)? The basic problem is that decorate/compare/undecorate patterns no longer work when the primary sort keys are equal and the secondary keys are un

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 383: Non-decodable Bytes in System Character Interfaces

2009-04-24 Thread Terry Reedy
Toshio Kuratomi wrote: Glenn Linderman wrote: On approximately 4/24/2009 11:40 AM, came the following characters from And so my encoding (1) doesn't alter the data stream for any valid Windows file name, and where the naivest of users reside (2) doesn't alter the data stream for any Posix file n

Re: [Python-Dev] Tuples and underorderable types

2009-04-24 Thread Terry Reedy
Raymond Hettinger wrote: I would discourage use of the decorate/sort/undecorate pattern, and encourage use of the key= argument. Or, if you really need to decorate into a tuple, still pass a key= argument. The bug report was actually about the sched module which used heapq to prioritize tuple

Re: [Python-Dev] Two proposed changes to float formatting

2009-04-26 Thread Terry Reedy
Mark Dickinson wrote: I'd like to propose two minor changes to float and complex formatting, for 3.1. I don't think either change should prove particularly disruptive. (1) Currently, '%f' formatting automatically changes to '%g' formatting for numbers larger than 1e50. For example: '%f' % 2*

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 383: Non-decodable Bytes in System Character Interfaces

2009-04-29 Thread Terry Reedy
Glenn Linderman wrote: On approximately 4/29/2009 4:36 AM, came the following characters from the keyboard of Cameron Simpson: On 29Apr2009 02:56, Glenn Linderman wrote: os.listdir(b"") I find that on my Windows system, with all ASCII path file names, that I get quite different results wh

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 383: Non-decodable Bytes in System Character Interfaces

2009-04-29 Thread Terry Reedy
Thomas Breuel wrote: Sure. However, that requires you to provide meaningful, reproducible counter-examples, rather than a stenographic formulation that might hint some problem you apparently see (which I believe is just not there). Well, here's another one: PEP 383 would disall

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 383: Non-decodable Bytes in System Character Interfaces

2009-04-29 Thread Terry Reedy
Glenn Linderman wrote: On approximately 4/29/2009 1:28 PM, came the following characters from So where is the ambiguity here? None. But not everyone can read all the Python source code to try to understand it; they expect the documentation to help them avoid that. Because the documentatio

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 383: Non-decodable Bytes in System Character Interfaces

2009-04-30 Thread Terry Reedy
James Y Knight wrote: On Apr 30, 2009, at 5:42 AM, Martin v. Löwis wrote: I think you are right. I have now excluded ASCII bytes from being mapped, effectively not supporting any encodings that are not ASCII compatible. Does that sound ok? Yes. The practical upshot of this is that users who br

Re: [Python-Dev] 3.1 beta deferred

2009-04-30 Thread Terry Reedy
Benjamin Peterson wrote: Hi everyone! In the interest of letting Martin implement PEP 383 for 3.1, I am deferring the release of the 3.1 beta until next Wednesday, May 6th. That might also give time for Larry Hastngs' UNC path patch. (and anything else essentially ready ;-) ___

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 383 and GUI libraries

2009-05-01 Thread Terry Reedy
Zooko O'Whielacronx wrote: Following-up to my own post to correct a major error: Is it true that srcbytes.encode(srcencoding, 'python-escape').decode('utf-8', 'python-escape') will always produce srcbytes ? That is my Requirement If you start with bytes, decode with utf-8b to unicode (possi

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 383 update: utf8b is now the error handler

2009-05-05 Thread Terry Reedy
M.-A. Lemburg wrote: On 2009-05-03 19:39, Martin v. Löwis wrote: If the error handler is supposed to be used for codecs other than utf-8, perhaps it should renamed something more generic, e.g. "surrogate-escape"? Perhaps. However, utf-8b doesn't really have to do anything with utf-8 - it's an a

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 383 update: utf8b is now the error handler

2009-05-06 Thread Terry Reedy
Glenn Linderman wrote: On approximately 5/6/2009 3:08 AM, came the following characters from the keyboard of MRAB: M.-A. Lemburg wrote: Martin v. Löwis wrote: Judging by the existing names, I think that 'surrogate' would be reasonable. It already contains the meaning of substitute, it's not

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 383 update: utf8b is now the error handler

2009-05-06 Thread Terry Reedy
Martin v. Löwis wrote: +1 for "surrogate" as the name for the error handler. +1 from me also Despite there being also an error handler called "surrogates". Given that additional information which MAL apparently omitted, I would revise. Are you serious? Are you? ;-? You are the one

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 383 update: utf8b is now the error handler

2009-05-06 Thread Terry Reedy
Martin v. Löwis wrote: Because utf8b (or, perhaps "UTF-8b") is the official name for this algorithm: http://hyperreal.org/~est/utf-8b/ Thank you for the link. It starts: "This directory contains a C implementation of a UTF-8b codec. A Python codec based on it is provided as well." 'RTF-8b' c

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 383 update: utf8b is now the error handler

2009-05-06 Thread Terry Reedy
Martin v. Löwis wrote: Antoine Pitrou wrote: Martin v. Löwis v.loewis.de> writes: Despite there being also an error handler called "surrogates". People, perhaps we could end all the bikeshedding and call one of those handlers "surrogates-pass" and the other "surrogates-escape", which sounds q

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 383 update: utf8b is now the error handler

2009-05-06 Thread Terry Reedy
Martin v. Löwis wrote: Are you serious? Are you? ;-? You are the one naming a codec-agnostic error handler (if I understand correctly, and correct me if I do not) after a particular codec, and denying that that could cause confusion. See other message. I can only repeat what I said before: I

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 383 update: utf8b is now the error handler

2009-05-07 Thread Terry Reedy
Martin v. Löwis wrote: So are you proposing that I should rename the PEP 383 handler to "utf_8b_encoder_invalid_codepoints"? No, he's saying that your algorithm for choosing the PEP 383 handler should have come up with that name, rather than utf8b. But since PEP 383 applies to other codecs bes

Re: [Python-Dev] typo in 8.1.3.1. Format Specification Mini-Language?

2009-05-07 Thread Terry Reedy
Neal Becker wrote: "format_spec ::= [[fill]align][sign][#][0][width][.precision][type]" "The precision is ignored for integer values." In [36]: '%3x' % 10 Out[36]: ' a' In [37]: '%.3x' % 10 Out[37]: '00a' Apparently, precision is _not_ ignored? Apparent typo reports should go to the track

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 383 update: utf8b is now the error handler

2009-05-07 Thread Terry Reedy
Martin v. Löwis wrote: Given your explanation of what the new 'surrogates' handler does (pass rather than reject erroneous surrogates), I think 'surrogates_pass' is fine. Thus, I considoer that and 'surrogates_excape' the best proposal the best so far and suggest that you make this pair the curr

Re: [Python-Dev] typo in 8.1.3.1. Format Specification Mini-Language?

2009-05-07 Thread Terry Reedy
Eric Smith wrote: Eric Smith wrote: Neal Becker wrote: "format_spec ::= [[fill]align][sign][#][0][width][.precision][type]" "The precision is ignored for integer values." In [36]: '%3x' % 10 Out[36]: ' a' In [37]: '%.3x' % 10 Out[37]: '00a' Apparently, precision is _not_ ignored? That s

Re: [Python-Dev] special method lookup: how much do we care?

2009-05-08 Thread Terry Reedy
Benjamin Peterson wrote: A while ago, Guido declared that all special method lookups on new-style classes bypass __getattr__ and __getattribute__. This almost completely consistent now, and I've been working on patching up a few incorrect cases. I've know hit __enter__ and __exit__. The compiler

Re: [Python-Dev] special method lookup: how much do we care?

2009-05-08 Thread Terry Reedy
Benjamin Peterson wrote: 2009/5/8 Terry Reedy : 2. I am puzzled why those two methods should be extra special, but don't know enough to say more. They're not supposed to be special, which is the reason for this message. :) Currently the interpreter will call __getattr__ when looki

Re: [Python-Dev] special method lookup: how much do we care?

2009-05-08 Thread Terry Reedy
Benjamin Peterson wrote: 2009/5/8 Daniel Stutzbach : On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote: Normally special methods use slots of the PyTypeObject struct. typeobject.c looks up all those methods on Python classes correctly. In the case of __enter__ and __exit__, the compiler

Re: [Python-Dev] special method lookup: how much do we care?

2009-05-08 Thread Terry Reedy
Benjamin Peterson wrote: __reduce__ __setstate__ __reversed__ __length_hint__ __sizeof__ No, it's easier to just use _PyObject_LookupSpecial there. Does that mean that the above 5 'work correctly' (or can easily be made to do so)? Leaving just __entry__ and __exit__ as problems? ___

Re: [Python-Dev] Issues with process and discussions (Re: Issues with Py3.1's new ipaddr)

2009-06-03 Thread Terry Reedy
gl...@divmod.com wrote: So, here are my recommendations: 1. Use the tracker for discussing tickets, so that it's easy to refer back to a previous point in the discussion, and so that people working on those tickets can easily find your commentary. 2. Use the mailing list for drawing attenti

Re: [Python-Dev] Google Wave as a developer communication tool

2009-06-03 Thread Terry Reedy
Ben Finney wrote: Terry Reedy writes: I watched and was greatly impressed by the video demo of Google's new Wave collaborative communication system. I believe it would/will help with some of the chronic problems we (and others) have. Example: if PEPs were waves, then responses could e

Re: [Python-Dev] Issues with process and discussions (Re: Issues with Py3.1's new ipaddr)

2009-06-04 Thread Terry Reedy
Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: Antoine Pitrou writes: > Terry Reedy udel.edu> writes: > > > > I watched and was greatly impressed by the video demo of Google's new > > Wave collaborative communication system. I believe it would/will help > > with some of

Re: [Python-Dev] Google Wave as a developer communication tool

2009-06-04 Thread Terry Reedy
Ben Finney wrote: Terry Reedy writes: Ben Finney wrote: I watched [the Google Wave presentation] too. It appears to be heavily reliant on *very* fast internet access for participants in a wave. That's far from universal in the Python community, let alone the internet at large. Even a

Re: [Python-Dev] Issues with process and discussions (Re: Issues with Py3.1's new ipaddr)

2009-06-04 Thread Terry Reedy
Martin v. Löwis wrote: In addition, you can fairly easily create a saved query to show you all the open tickets that you are on the nosy list for. (Although I created and saved my query for that so long ago that I don't recall the exact details on how to go about doing that). It's fairly easy.

Re: [Python-Dev] Roundup keywords for bug tracking

2009-06-05 Thread Terry Reedy
anatoly techtonik wrote: It is impossible to edit roundup keywords and this takes away the flexibility in selecting bugs related to a module/function/test or some other aspect of development. For example, I need to gather all subprocess bugs in one query At the moment, search for 'subprocess'

[Python-Dev] Status of 2.7 and 3.2

2009-06-06 Thread Terry Reedy
2.7 Once upon a time, the plan was to come out with 2.6 and 3.0, and then after the usual interval, 2.7 and 3.1. As it turned out, 3.0 came out 3 months after 2.6, but, as it typical of x.0 releases, had some flaws leading to 3.1 now just 6 month later. I have thought that 2.7 was now to co

Re: [Python-Dev] Status of 2.7 and 3.2

2009-06-07 Thread Terry Reedy
Nick Coghlan wrote: Martin v. Löwis wrote: I have thought that 2.7 was now to come out instead with 3.2 and would include backported 3.2 new features. Others expect 2.7 to come out soon after 3.1 and to only contain new 3.1 features. So Guido or someone, please clarify: is 2.7 to be the counte

Re: [Python-Dev] Exception for setting attributes of built-in type

2009-06-14 Thread Terry Reedy
Seo Sanghyeon wrote: Exception for setting attributes of built-in type differs between CPython and IronPython. This is not purely theoretical, as zope.interface tries to set Implements declaration as __implemented__ attribute of built-in type object, and excepts TypeError. Python 2.6.1 object.f

Re: [Python-Dev] Iterator version of contextlib.nested

2009-06-15 Thread Terry Reedy
Raymond Hettinger wrote: P.S. If you switch to PendingDeprecationWarning, the example in the docs should probably be switched to show the one valid use case (passing in a prepackaged nest of context managers). It could even suggest that it only be used for this, since it may disappear, and t

Re: [Python-Dev] Python script language or not

2009-06-17 Thread Terry Reedy
Dirkjan Ochtman wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:27, abhishek goswami wrote: Can anyone clarify me. Please let me know also it is right forum or not. This is not the right forum. This mailing list is about developing the CPython interpreter. For general questions, you may want to try the com

Re: [Python-Dev] draft pep: backwards compatibility

2009-06-20 Thread Terry Reedy
gl...@divmod.com wrote: On 07:06 pm, pyt...@rcn.com wrote: Not sure why we need yet another pep on the subject. Just update PEP 5 if needed. I agree. The draft covers the same ground. Two PEPs on the same subject would be redundant where they agree but would create confusion where they do

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