27;t.
I think the std library could possibly be organised better, but just
because something isn't useful to me right now, doesn't mean it isn't
useful to someone, and may be useful to me tomorrow.
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ut for the life of me, I can't understand the 1/3 of the votes that
have been cast in favour of prohibiting comments for everybody, even
those who want comments.
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three choices for allowing comments, two for disallowing.
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s, with two-thirds in favour of allowing
them.
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On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 10:19:17 am Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 09:17:40 am Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote:
> > This "poll" business is just smoke and mirrors, anyway -- notice
> > the way the "no comments" votors are split among three choices,
>
ple like Paul, but because the alternatives -- easy
comment spam, people voting multiple times -- are worse than some
proportion of users being unable to vote.
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it.
Thank you.
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ell, and FWIW, I personally agree with this
> convention.
What's the justification for that convention? It seems wrong to me.
If you expand out hypot and substitute a=inf and b=nan, you get:
>>> math.sqrt(inf*inf + nan*nan)
nan
which agrees with my pencil-and-paper calculatio
On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:06:01 am Mark Dickinson wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Steven D'Aprano
>
>
> > What's the justification for that convention? It seems wrong to me.
>
> It's difficult to do better than to point to Kahan's writings. See
7;re all adults here. I do recall a
poster on comp.lang.python pulling his hair out over a customer who was
too big to fire, but who had the obnoxious habit of making random
so-called "fixes" to the poster's .py files, so perhaps byte-code only
distribution isn't all bad.
tion is extensive and rapidly changing,
so I think it would be better to have the current implementation page
be fairly minimal but link to the wiki for more details:
http://wiki.python.org/moin/implementation
http://www.python.org/dev/implementations/
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_
description given. I imagine there
will be recipes on ActiveState quite quickly, and if there isn't, that
would be good evidence that demand for the feature is low.
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e
created, just like today.
BTW, you have some sort of automated warning in the PEP:
System Message: WARNING/2 (pep-3147.txt, line 237)
Title underline too short.
http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3147/#id47
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xcusable.
This is not the place for me to rant over the evil that is dot files, so
I'll just say this: Python works on platforms other than Unix/Linux,
and some of those platforms don't treat dot files as anything more than
a file with a
comparisons, which will always return a
bool, and will avoid the current ... interesting ... behaviour. In 3.1:
>>> Decimal(1) == 1 == 1.0
True
>>> Decimal(1) == 1.0
False
>>> Decimal.from_float(1.0) == 1 == 1.0
True
>>> Decimal.from_float(1.0) ==
e has to be explicit about how to do it.
More explicit than someDecimal == someFloat? Seems pretty explicit to
me.
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e will be confused by this too:
>>> x = 1.0/3
>>> x + 1.0 - 1.0 == x
False
There's an awful lot about floats that is confusing to naive users, I
don't see that the behaviour of Decimals will make it worse.
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On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 10:01:12 am Guido van Rossum wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
> > But mixed arithmetic runs into the problem, what do you want the
> > result type to be? Given (say) decimal+float, returning either a
> > Decimal or
ht answer it is better than not?
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On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:58:25 am Raymond Hettinger wrote:
> On Mar 17, 2010, at 1:59 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:44:21 am Raymond Hettinger wrote:
> >> The spectrum of options from worst to best is
> >> 1) compare but give the wrong ans
everyone live with making float<->Decimal comparisons raise an
> exception in 2.7?
Yes. I would far prefer an exception than the current incorrect results
in 2.6.
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One can only wonder
why the various standards (actual and de-facto) for floating point
allows comparisons at all.
But they do, and so does Python, and frankly even if the only reason is
to satisfy lazy coders who don't have a requirement for high accur
_ import ..." except it's
> a permanent part of the language rather than a forward compatibility
> feature.)
That's far more ambitious than I was willing to even imagine, but now
that you've suggested it, I like it.
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the only surprise:
>>> x = Decimal("NAN"); x == x
False
Decimals are floats, but using radix 10 instead of radix 2.
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ingle warning per session would be okay, a warning after
every operation would be excessive in my opinion, and exceptions by
default would be right out.
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ds, but then import
can't write to the freshly created directory? That's just weird, so I'm
+0 on raising a warning and -1 on raising an exception.
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usernames (note
plural) to store them under.
It is not true that one can necessarily delete the cached files without
data loss. Python still supports .pyc-only packages, and AFAIK there
are no plans to stop that, so deleting the .pyc file may delete the
module.
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#x27;)
> >>> s = {x}
> >>> x in s
> True
As usual though, NANs are unintuitive:
>>> d = {float('nan'): 1}
>>> d[float('nan')] = 2
>>> d
{nan: 1, nan: 2}
I suspect that's a feature, not a bug.
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On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:51:36 pm Mark Dickinson wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 5:36 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull
wrote:
> > Steven D'Aprano writes:
> >
> > > As usual though, NANs are unintuitive:
> > >
> > > >>> d = {float('nan
On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:47:26 pm Nick Coghlan wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:51:36 pm Mark Dickinson wrote:
> >>> I don't see how it can be so. Aren't all of those entries
> >>> garbage? To compute a histogram of results f
inst the idea: -1 on interning NaNs. For the rare
application where it might be useful, it is easy to do in the
application code.
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what algorithms are there that
rely on NaN == NaN being True?
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d -inf, corresponding to the infinities on the real number line. (I
hope that I'm not over-simplifying -- it's been more than a decade
since I've needed to care about this.)
But in any case, the IEEE standard doesn't deal with cardinals: it only
uses two signed infinities
On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:25:35 pm Nick Coghlan wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > I'd like to turn the question around ... what algorithms are there
> > that rely on NaN == NaN being True?
>
> Absolutely anything that expects "x is y" to imply that "x =
* of garbage you've got (the payload): INF-INF is, in
some sense, a different kind of error to log(-1).
In the same way you might say "INF-INF could be any number at all,
therefore we return NAN", you might say "since INF-INF could be
anything, there's no reason to think that INF-INF == INF-INF."
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y NAN,
including itself. However, I would be -0 on the following compromise:
Allow NANs to test equal to themselves (identity testing).
math module to grow a function ieee_equals(x, y) that keeps the current
behaviour.
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On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 12:19:06 pm P.J. Eby wrote:
> At 11:57 AM 3/26/2010 +1100, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> >But they're not -- they're *signals* for "your calculation has gone
> >screwy and the result you get is garbage", so to speak. You
> >should
26, 2010 at 7:59 PM, Michael Foord
wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > A user has suggested an optional argument to
> > unittest.TestCase.assertAlmostEqual for specifying a maximum
> > difference between the expected and actual values, instead of using
> > rounding.
[sni
error.
+1 on leaving the behaviour alone -- the surprising behaviour people
have pointed out with NANs in lists, dicts and sets occurs more often
in theory than in practice.
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much need for a
nonlocals() function. I suspect it's a solution in search of a problem,
but the same holds for locals() (in my option) and so I wouldn't object
if somebody else volunteered to do the work :)
+0
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the various writings by Professor Kahan:
http://www.drdobbs.com/184410314
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/
Most of the issues discussed apply to languages that deal with floats at
a lower level than Python does, but still, simple minded optimizations
will break corner cases no matter
local namespace).
>
> You can override __new__ of a type subclass to achieve the same
> effect (or even directly call type.__new__ with strange dict as an
> argument).
I think that only works in Python 3.x, in 2.x the __dict__ is always a
regul
ersonality of the contributor? Not
everyone appreciates being examined like that, even in an informal
ad-hoc way, and while they might suck it up and accept it, they don't
necessarily benefit from it. I reckon that for every one or two
would-be contributors who value having that early oversigh
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 03:45:39 am Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano pearwood.info> writes:
> > Who are we worried about offending? The crowds on the Internet who
> > never volunteer for anything, who never submit patches, let alone
> > offer to do the unglamourous
On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 05:37:31 am Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano pearwood.info> writes:
> > That depends on what you call unglamourous work. No, I don't triage
> > bugs. I don't have commit privileges, so I can't.
>
> Is this the sole reaso
I'm aware of, nor do I understand what you mean by "most
fundamental sense" of diverse. Talking about diversity within a single
community is not an oxymoron.
> As long as Pythonicity is important to Python, there is
> danger as well as opportunity in more rapid influx of
On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 06:16:48 pm Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano writes:
> > As I see it, the two camps are divided purely on the question of
> > how to get increased privileges.
>
> As I see it, the division is over what constitutes merit, and how i
ed to avoid duplicated
jobs.
I think it is reasonable to expect that partial(operator.add, 2)
compares equal to partial(operator.add, 2). I don't think he's
suggesting it should compare equal to partial(lambda x,y: x+y, 2).
+0.5 on comparing equal.
+1 on a nicer repr for partial objects.
On Sat, 8 May 2010 03:57:06 am Steve Holden wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > On Sat, 8 May 2010 02:07:55 am Rob Cliffe wrote:
> >> Sorry to grouse, but isn't this maybe being a bit too clever?
> >> Using your example,
> >> p1 = partial(operato
guments that compare equal. That's a nice, conservative change that
is unlikely to lead to bugs, unlike some of the more "clever" proposals
that rely on mathematical equivalences that don't hold for Python
objects.
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;from functools import partial; p = partial(lambda
x: x)').repeat())
1.2715129852294922
No need to make that worse if that can be avoided.
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3.3, since I think 3.2 and 2.7
are in feature-freeze).
I suggest you also take this idea to python-l...@python.org or
comp.lang.python first, to see whether there is any enthusiasm from the
wider Python community.
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Python-
r ordered list except
for the purposes of equality comparisons). I don't believe it is a
burden on developers to add it to their own application should they
need it.
-1 for this.
If anyone wishes to support this proposal, please come up with
takes exactly 2 positional arguments (1 given)
This is misleading, since C().method is a bound method which takes one
argument, x, not two. I find myself wishing that Python distinguished
between ArgumentError and other TypeErrors, so that the method wrapper
of bound methods could simply catch ArgumentError and subtract 1 from
each argument count.
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is a Python implementation of a stable Java API, Brian has said the
futures package has been on PyPI for about a year, and it's been
flagged as a production/stable release since October last year.
http://pypi.python.org/pypi/futures3
Given that there does seem to be a general a
ough not quickly. For instance,
we move threading into the concurrent namespace, and leave behind in
its place a stub:
from concurrent.threading import *
Then for (say) 3.3 the stub could gain a PendingDeprecation warning,
then in 3.4 a Deprecation warning, and finally in 3.5 or 3.6 it could
be r
far more
likely to confuse users than adding it to its own namespace. Compare:
import __future__
import futures
with:
import __future__
import concurrency.futures
In my opinion, it is high time for the std lib to pay more attention to
the final Zen:
Namespaces are one honking great idea --
On Fri, 18 Jun 2010 11:19:37 pm Jesse Noller wrote:
> Awesome. I plan on wasting as much money on the useless effort of
> moving python 3 forward as humanly possible.
I'm sorry, but if that's sarcasm, it's far too subtle for me :(
had my experience would have been different. It's bad enough to have to
tell people "Python 3 is currently lacking some critical libraries,
particularly third-party libraries" without also telling them (wrongly
IMO) "oh, and it's a new language too".
--
fully moved to Python3 with the Jonestown cult
mass-suicide doesn't really strike me as a sign that you want to join
them.
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ning non-ASCII characters ("those
funny letters"), insist that the problem is the user for giving
non-ASCII characters. Even when they're in the user's native
(non-Latin) language. Even when the OS supports them.
Gah.
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prove itself before being made a part of the
standard library, let alone a built-in.
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f not, how do they deal with this issue?
[...]
> This is still smelling an awful lot like the 2.x str type to me
Yes. Virtually the only difference I can see is that it lets the user
set a per-object default encoding to use when coercing strings to and
from bytes.
If this is not the case, ca
;, which looks more like a modern 'f'.
An unfortunate example, as the old English long-s gets its own Unicode
codepoint.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s
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http:/
short
paragraph description of what it is?
Actually, since I'm none of the above, I'll answer my own question:
WPython is an implementation of Python that uses 16-bit wordcodes
instead of byte code, and claims to have various performance benefits
from doing so.
It looks like good work, thank y
.g. if the keyhole optimizer raised SyntaxError (or
some other exception) on seeing this:
def f():
return 1 + "1"
instead of compiling something which can't fail to raise an exception,
would that still be a legal Python implementati
at? When I try it in Python 3.1, I
get:
TypeError: don't know how to disassemble str objects
How do you get that result?
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or environmental variable, like -O, and documented
as potentially changing the behaviour of the program. But given how few
accidental errors are likely to be caught by this, I doubt it would be
of any real benefit.
Thanks to all who answered!
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specific exception messages is living in
a state of sin and shouldn't complain when their code stops working. An
implementation might choose to raise TypeError('is this the right place
for an argument?') on alternate Tuesdays, and it would still meet the
promises made by the language
on't have a hope in hell of surviving a legal challenge,
including one that would have meant that I was agreeing to never work
for any person or company in Australia who ever had with a telephone.
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If I go ahead with this assumption and fix a bug in stdlib, I am
> introducing a regression because at the moment the above is
> considered a ftp url.
Do you have a url for the bug report?
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ht behaviour is to raise an exception and let the caller
deal with it, or provide a means to register an alternative.
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Unsubsc
gh... the old regex engine and the new re engine
were side-by-side for many years before regex was deprecated and
finally removed in 2.5. Hypothetically, re2 could similarly be added to
the standard library while re is deprecated.
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tting the search continue
> further down sys.path (although I agree the current semantics of
> getting two copies of the same module under different names in this
> case are less than ideal).
Yes, that's a weird corner case. I don't see any advantage to keeping
that behaviour.
--
tes it:
import difflib
difflib.disable_heuristic = True
On 2.7.0 and older versions, creating the flag won't do anything useful,
but nor will it cause an exception. It will be harmless.
I think an explicit flag is better than relying on magic behaviour
triggered by "unlikely"
scussion. If you're still
interested in it, please take it to comp.lang.python or
tu...@python.org.
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efer it's easy enough to wrap it in a function in your own
module. Not everything needs to be a built-in.
I'm -0 on adding an argument to os.makedirs, +0 on adding a variant
function to os, and +0.5 on adding the variant to the shutil module.
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__
python are
> likely to be happy to learn it."
We don't need to make excuses for why we don't give the answer here.
It's enough to give the reason -- it's off-topic for this list, which
is about the development of Python. That and a poin
On Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:59:32 am Ben Finney wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano writes:
> > We don't need to make excuses for why we don't give the answer
> > here. It's enough to give the reason -- it's off-topic for this
> > list, which is about the develo
ably go right over his head (as they went
over mine).
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pid idiot
volunteers" is a good way to motivate more people to provide patches.
But either way, I think you answer your own question: apparently some
people *are* understanding of the reasons that issues sometimes get
missed or neglected.
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_
f")
it becomes a hindrance instead, then Guido should make an exception.
I promise that I won't cease taking his pronouncements seriously if he
does :)
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obscurity.
It seems to me that he's merely suggesting that we are discreet about
discussing vulnerabilities unless we have a plan to fix them.
Whether such discretion is useful is an open question. It may be that
the cat is already out of the bag an
ss without caring what the output is.
But perhaps os.system() should become an alias for subprocess.system()
in 3.2, then deprecated in 3.3 and removed (from os only) in 3.4?
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n the form " ..." to and from byte strings, I don't see
the need for new syntax and would vote -1 on the idea. However, I'd
vote +0 on a matching bytes.tohex() method to partner with the existing
bytes.fromhex().
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of "approved" methods. Is that the intention? I have always understood
that if you create your own __*__ names, you risk clashing with a
special method, but otherwise it is allowed, if disapproved off. I
would not like to see it become forbidden.
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What's the average
age of those 1 in 5 issues? Maybe 1 in 5 is exactly right, given the
realities of people available to respond to issues versus people
available to report issues. Maybe 1 in 5 is supernaturally good, given
our resources available.
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ay) g, and g wraps h,
then you have:
func.__wrapped__ => f
func.__wrapped__.__wrapped__ => g
func.__wrapped__.__wrapped__.__wrapped__ => h
and so on, until you reach a function that doesn't wrap anything and
doesn't have a __wrapped__ attribute.
I'm +1 on the proposal.
7;t we learned from
Firefox? I for one am getting heartily sick and tired of having
to "fix" (that is, throw away) corrupted Firefox databases. Please
don't go down that path.
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t does, it has little or no utility for me. In the
future, I'll just write a try...except block and catch errors if the
attribute doesn't exist.
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On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 11:09:10 am Guido van Rossum wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Steven D'Aprano
wrote:
[...]
> > I have always thought that hasattr() does what it says on the box:
> > it tests for the *existence* of an attribute, that is, one that
> > sta
could have three users
between them, or they could be critical infrastructure for a quarter of
the Internet.
I'm not trying to belittle the stats you have gathered, but without the
context of *what* the numbers represent, it's impossible t
he wire-format is this formalized encoding we have to use to be able
> to send it from place to place. In that mental model it seems to
> make perfect sense to have a StringMessage that I have encode to
> transmit, and a BytesMessage that I receive and have to decode to
> wo
d to annoy and
upset a number of people in a remarkably short time too. The long
term health of Python depends more on the community than the
existence of a few bugs more or less.
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elopers to make
changes to the source code, why not trust them to make changes to the
documentation? The real problem, it seems to me, is the difficulty in
getting developers to write and update documentation, not in preventing
them from writing it.
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dium and Scholarpedia are
notable examples that attempt to increase the (real or perceived)
reliability and accountability of their articles by prohibiting
anonymous edits altogether. Despite the influence of Wikipedia, "wiki"
does not mean "open to everyone to
ght be something
like "This page is locked. You must log in to edit this page." or
similar. How does one get an account? Can I edit anonymously?
Once I found a page I could edit, it was relatively straightforward. So
that's a plus :)
--
Steven D'Aprano
en an arbitrary file system, there's no
obvious way to determine what it will do to file names short of trying
to create a file and see what happens.
--
Steven D'Aprano
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tion? E.g. something like:
gc.enable_file_warnings()
run_my_tests_for_leakage()
gc.disable_file_warnings()
or similar. (I'm not wedded to it being in the gc module.)
Otherwise, I'm +0.25 on enabling it with a command line switch, and -0
on turning it o
On Tue, 5 Oct 2010 07:21:15 pm Chris Withers wrote:
> On 25/09/2010 04:25, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > 1. Return the case of a filename in some canonical form which
> > depends on the file system?
> > 2. Return the case of a filename as it is actually stored on disk?
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