ze out more digits of
precision per bit of storage than decimal floats, or that binary
floats are faster because they are supported by specialized hardware,
then I'd go along, but they're not a "better model".
-- Michael Chermside
___
hat it is always trumped by adding
another digit of precision to your numbers / lookup tables / whatever.
If so, then even more credit needs to be given to the system that
supports adjustable precision (the Decimal module).
-- Michael Chermside
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hen later in the code we could do things like this:
language = 'en'
dayOfWeek = DaysOfWeek.Mon
month = Months.Jan
dayOfMonth = 3
print '%s, %s %s' % (
translations[dayOfWeek][language],
translations[month][language],
dayOfMonth)
# this works in 2.4 but fails in 2.5
- end problem_with_dicts.py
Please reconsider.
-- Michael Chermside
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Marc-Andre Lemburg writes:
> How about generating a warning instead and then go for the exception
> in 2.6 ?
Agreed. Michael Hudson's explanation convinced me.
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use an exception after one more release when people have had time
to fix their code.
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icode but let everyone else using objects that
raise exceptions suffer), but I think it would be more friendly to
use warnings for now and exceptions after another full release
cycle. The warnings should solve the underlying issue (hard-to-debug
problems).
-- Michael Chermside
_
to
release ElementTree in the stdlib exactly as it is in 2.5 and change
it for 2.6.
-- Michael Chermside
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I think we should note this policy someplace official -- perhaps
in the Language Reference where __eq__ and __lt__ are defined. But
I do not think that these changes should be made until Py3K.
What do others think? Is this the "right" approach?
--
ke this:
S.partition(sep) -> (head, sep, tail)
S.rpartition(sep) -> (tail, sep, rest)
Perhaps someone else can find something clearer than my suggestion,
but in my own head, the terms "head" and "tail" are tighly bound
with the idea of beginning and end (respective
up the good work! Some day I'd like to see NumPy built in
to the standard Python distribution. The incremental, PEP by PEP approach
you are taking is the best route to getting there. But there may be
some changes along the way -- convergence with ctypes may be one of
but which at the same time manages to
associate the word "fast" with "Python".
-- Michael Chermside
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Can't we treat this misbehavior as an outright bug?
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t and let's see if that does the trick.
I just got notification of the change to PEP 246 (and I haven't received
other checkin notifications), so I guess I can report that this is
working.
Thanks, Barry. Should we now mention this on c.l.py for others who
ma
But in my world, people occasionally misuse
adaptation because they think they know what they're doing
or because they're in a big hurry and it's the most convenient
tool at hand.
I wish I lived in your world, but I don't.
-- Michael Chermside
[1] - Except for Eiffel.
than class inheritance (which of course is used more
> often). Do you want to prohibit interface inheritance, too?
Hmm. Sounds like you're making a point here that's important, but which
I don't quite get. Can you elaborate? I certainly hadn't intended to
prohibit interf
st, but "LiskovViolation" in the exception name seems unbeatably
clear and concise.
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" in this case short
of prohibiting interface inheritance entirely. And, as Phillip points
out to me (see above) this is a more common type of error.
Gee... I'm understanding the problem a little better, but elegant
solutions are still escaping me.
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s not true.
Guido writes:
> How about SubstitutabilityError?
It would be less precise and informative to ME but apparently more so
to a beginner. Obviously, we should support the beginner!
-- Michael Chermside
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lity, so we
are jumping through hoops to ensure that even this old code which is
violating the rules doesn't get broken.
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good IPC library that makes
it easier to write programs that launch "threads" as separate processes
and communicate with them. No change to the internals, just a new
library to encourage people to use the technique that already works.
-- Michael Chermside
n't comment on whether this applies to libmd.
-- Michael Chermside
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propose it! Let's alias
map, filter, and reduce into the functional module now that it exists.
This doesn't create any need or pressure to remove these as builtins, but
it does contemplate a day when we might choose to make such a choice.
-- Michael Chermside
y
>>> func(3,4)
Warning (from warnings module):
File "g:/Documents/Personal/Python/deprecated.py", line 10
warnings.warn("Call to deprecated function.")
UserWarning: Call to deprecated function.
7
So... shall I go add this to the cookbook?
-- Michael
only
> complains if it is called...
True enough. And java doesn't complain at all if the deprecated function
is invoked via reflection. It's a fundamental difference in style between
the two languages: Python barely even HAS a "compile phas
locations, repairs, uninstalls, single-user and all-user installs, and
I found no problems anywhere. Nice work!
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& 0x8
...and I suspect (experimentation seems to confirm this) that if you mangle
these then the code object won't work correctly. If anyone's got a
suggestion for fixing this, I'd love to hear it.
-- Michael Chermside
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s (besides which, we'd still need to handle the empty list). So
I'm in favor of REMOVING the second argument of sum() for python 3000,
unless it was kept purely for "backward compatibility" reasons, which
would be defeated by changing it&#x
people normally want to do with classes (like support
for inheritance.
But a few *good* use cases would change my mind.
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before I could begin to consider it.
If I understand it properly, pattern matching in Haskell relies
primarily on Haskell's excellent typing system, which is absent in
Python.
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htt
handle_undefine()
elif re.match('[A-Za-z][A-Za-z0-9]*$', s):
handle_identifier()
else:
syntax_error()
would be might be nice, but I can't figure out how to make it work
more efficiently than the simple if-elif-else structure, nor an
elegent syntax.
-- Michael Chermside
t make it easier to evaluate syntax suggestions. And
if the answer is that we want to prohibit nothing, then the right
solution is macros.
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I'd be happy with a function-call like syntax
for including the macro.
Well, that's a lot of "wanting"... now I all I need to do is invent a
clever syntax that allows these in an elegant fashion while also solving
Guido's point about imports (hint: the answer is that it ALL happens at
runtime). I'll go think some while you guys zoom past me again.
-- Michael Chermside
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default() |y = 4
is the repetition of "x ==" and of "y =". As my earlier example
demonstrates, a structure like this in which the "x ==" or the
"y =" VARIES has a totally different *meaning* to the programmer
than one in which the "x =="
ed convince me that allowing the use of generators
instead of classes with the "do_template" decorator is quite nice in
practice, even though it gets confusing (for beginners anyhow) if you
start to think about it too much.
-- Michael Chermside
# = SAMPLE #1: increasing preci
be done with higher precision, AND causes any variables set during
the block will retain their higher precision. (It's because context
controls OPERATIONS but changing context never affects individual
Decimal OBJECTS.) So I fear that the whole with_extra_precision()
idea is just likely to tempt
thought "Well, what's the harm in letting the variable
survive the 'with' statement?" I'm a big fan of keeping namespaces
"clean", but it's just not important enough to incurr other penalties.
So in this case, I (reluctantly, after givin
oing nothing. I CLEARLY intended to
do the appropriate cleanup (or locking, or whatever), but it doesn't
happen.
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ct context precision?
(By the way... even if other constructors begin to respect context
precision, the constructor from tuple should NOT -- it exists to provide
low-level access to the implementation. I'll express no opinion on the
constructor from Decimal, because I don't understand the
an't make more time for this now.
I understand!
> The short course is that
> a module purporting to implement an external standard should not
> deviate from that standard without very good reasons
Yes, but should we think of the constructor-from-string
object:
>>> import decimal
>>> decimal.getcontext().prec = 4
>>> decimal.getcontext().create_decimal("1.234567890")
Decimal("1.235")
Frankly, I have no idea WHAT purpose is served by passing a context
to the decimal constructor... I didn
ds, make FULL use of the context in the constructor if a context
is provided, but make NO use of the thread context when no context is
provided.
--
One final point... Thanks to Mike Cowlishaw for chiming in with a detailed
and well-considered explanation of his thoughts on the matter.
-- M
ver something new
goes wrong. This is the only way I've found to work around the
problem in Java. Wouldn't it be nice if Python could do better?
-- Michael Chermside
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and there are only 5-10 open bugs, we
can send intrepid volunteers digging through the archives to examine
bugs that got closed without proper investigation. I'm not holding my
breath.
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e side effect going on here, I don't see it. What
am I missing?
-- Michael Chermside
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4-10 values though, so
O(1) and O(n) may not be THAT different. It's one of those cases where the
only thing I'd really believe was experiments done on real code. But it's
a cool optimization if it actually pays off.
-- Michael Chermside
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code I immediately thought that it WAS the
straightforward way to write that code, and that I was just not
smart enough to have realized it until he showed me.
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> f2.write(chunk)
What ever happened to "Not every 3 line function needs to be a builtin"?
It's a common pattern. It's easy to do. Where's the problem?
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ion it is that is still undecided). If a
_trivial_ decision is already made, there's no need for a
PEP, but if a difficult decision has been made, then
documenting it in a PEP saves years of having to justify
it to newbies.
-- Michael Chermside
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A minor related point about on_missing():
Haven't we learned from regrets over the .next() method of iterators
that all "magically" invoked methods should be named using the __xxx__
pattern? Shouldn't it be named __on_missing__() instead?
howed that it would have been
better the other way.
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3.0 where text == unicode?
Um... yes. Sorry, I'm not completely used to 3.0 yet. I'll need to borrow
the time machine for a little longer before my fingers really pick up on
the 3.0 names and idioms.
-- Michael Chermside
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n
of builtins (adding one more for next() won't hurt, but if we make a
practice of it we'll eventually have too many).
All told, I prefer using the underscores. I think that the first
invariant is important. But it's a judgement call, and a close one, so
I'll be
hose as identifiers in your code. Avoid only that portion of
the builtin namespace that you feel is worth keeping.
-- Michael Chermside
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;absolute_import" in self.futures)
The only USE I have ever seen for code obscurity was in writing
certain vote-counting software where the true behavior needed
to remain obscure even in the face of source code publication.[1]
-- Michael Chermside
[1] http://graphics.stanford.edu/~danielrh/v
jects in
hopes of selling it for money to comercial projects is a WONDERFUL
business model. Good luck!
-- Michael Chermside
(PS: too bad I can't buy stock in Coverity. How come all the GOOD
companies are private? I had to wait around 6 years before I could
buy stock in Google.)
bt we're going to convince Sun or Microsoft to change
their approach to threading, I think it is unwise to build such a
feature into the Python language. Supporting it in CPython only
requires (I think) no more than a very simple C extension. I think
it should stay as an exte
skillful Java programmers
out there. Yet it is rare to see them write "catch Throwable" when they
should use "catch Exception". That mistake is far more common among
beginning Python users. Surely we can do at least as well as Java!
-- Michael Chermside
PS: I've intentionall
abase.duras
database.oracle
there's no need to group the SQL databases.
-- Michael Chermside
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pointing out what should have been
obvious to me from the start. The ability to use callable objects as
functions is a powerful tool in Python, and ought not be broken by decorator
inconsistencies.
-- Michael Chermside
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eyword argument:
>
> "{0:{1}.{2}d}".format(a, b, c)
This violates the specification given above... it has non-escaped '}'
characters. Make up one rule and be consistant.
-- Michael Chermside
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he basic format() method
and I would have tried to take one small step at a time.
But please don't read this as saying I object to the above ideas...
I wouldn't have said anything if you hadn't asked what my approach
would be.
-- Michael Chermside
_
(x)
I presume that Michele's proposal is that inspect.isgenerator() (or
perhaps "inspect.isgenfunc()") would return True for "foo" and "bar"
but false for "foo_or_bar". Can you give a single use case for
o think carefully about such things, and the documentation
on the option should give a good explanation of the tradeoffs
or at least a link to such an explanation.
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how, in Python only builtins is _really_ global -- even today's
global keyword only refers to module scope. So I believe that it
would be a very reasonable interpretation of "global" to mean
"not local", and implement as "search enclosing scopes in order
to find the
I swear it's word-for-word accurate because
the quote burned itself into my memory.)
-- Michael Chermside
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ught, nonetheless.
My three-year-old has been working on that 'whee'/'.whee' prohibition,
but he hasn't mastered it yet.
Gotta-go-wash-another-load-of-underpants -lly yours,
Michael Chermside
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rrier? If so, it would simplify a bit
of your proposal, and make me feel a little less worried.
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ion('example.com'))
untrusted_object.do_stuff()
...
To sum up: I agree that you cannot rely on prevent all the
possible "python tricks", but I still think that capabilities
are a superior solution. I'd like to find a way to achieve
the user-c
gh about multiple interpreters to be sure -- but somehow I
thought they had separate object pools.
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object references.
> D. A given piece of Python code cannot access or communicate
> with certain Python objects in the same interpreter.
>
> E. A given piece of Python code can access only a limited set
> of Python objects in the same interpreter.
Hmmm. I'm not sure.
-- Michael Chermside
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. We provide a means for obtaining
a SecureFileWrapper bound to a given file (perhaps open()).
Essentially, we give up on hiding file, which is a frequently-used
type, and very hard to hide, and instead we rely on our ability to
write a reliably secure "SecureFileWra
I quoted this unwritten bit of Python Zen, attributing it to Tim:
> Syntax should not look like grit on my monitor.
mwh writes:
> I think it was Anthony:
>
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2005-July/054581.html
But that's not the original. Turns out, it WAS Anthony, and I had
mis
be sufficient, or if it is
valuable to allow end users to fine-tune the
restrictions.
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Gerrit Holl writes:
> What would happen if...
Raymond replies:
> Every molecule in your body would simultaneously implode at the speed of
> light.
So you're saying it triggers C-language "undefined behavior"?
-- Michael Chermside
__
y:
c().foo()
except TypeError:
fail('Should not have raised TypeError')
There ARE situations when you want to allow an exception (but not
necessarily expect it) and do nothing when it occurs, but I don't
find them all that common, and I certainly don't fin
then that's
one good reason.
> It could also be done by adding a subprocess.CLOSED constant, which if
> passed to Popen causes a new closed file descriptor to be given to the
> subprocess.
-1.
It is easy enough to create a closed FD to read from... why complicate the
API?
--
use C supplies support for binary FP but
does not offer access to the flags and traps), but this is one of those
few cases where it's worth using platform-and-compiler specific code.
Of course, someone still has to step forward and offer to code it.
-- Michael Chermside
_
#x27;s
behavior than "leave".
Anyway, this stuff is always very subjective and, as I said, I'm just
expressing an opinion. So take it for what it's worth.
-- Michael Chermside
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upports 'with' statements I will continue to use "context"
to mean lots of different things (eg: decimal.context).
By the way, great job Nick... these docs read quite nicely.
-- Michael Chermside
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hreaded programs.
This achieves two things: it makes them available to those who need
them (not everyone uses threads!), and it rather forcefully makes the
point that it's NOT usually a good idea to modify global state info in
a context manager beca
One common example
would be to use them only from the main thread.
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n be simple enough for _me_ to understand it! I think I'm
going to go frame this and have it posted in my cubical.
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e encoding. Lowercase names for encodings are preferred.
>>> u"äöü".encode('utf-8')
'\xc3\xa4\xc3\xb6\xc3\xbc'
I think that if we just took out the example of str() usage and replaced
it with a sentence or two that DID introduce the (revised) str() func
agree that
this is unwise because the existing meaning is a tempting trap for the
unwary. So I don't see any advantage to keeping bare "except:" in the
long run. What we do to ease the transition is a different question,
but one more easily resolved.
-- Michael Chermside
_
ng to be said for simplicity, and having only one kind of
"except" clause for try statements is clearly simpler than having both "except
:" and also bare "except:".
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are reasonably
exhaustive. If we cannot produce a warning for these, then I'd
rather not produce the warning for the use of bare "except:".
After all, as it's been pointed out, if the use of bare "except:"
is all you are interested in it is quite easy to grep the code t
Guido:
> But how about the following compromise: make it a silent deprecation
> in 2.5, and a full deprecation in 2.6.
Reinhold Birkenfeld:
> That said, I think that unless it is a new feature (like with statements)
> transitions to Python 3.0 shouldn't be enforced in the 2.x series. With 3.0,
> e
[PLEASE IGNORE PREVIOUS EMAIL... I HIT [Send] BY MISTAKE]
Guido:
> But how about the following compromise: make it a silent deprecation
> in 2.5, and a full deprecation in 2.6.
Reinhold Birkenfeld:
> That said, I think that unless it is a new feature (like with statements)
> transitions to Pytho
argument for
why we should allow only limited forms in Python 3.0.
And next time that I find myself in need of an obfuscated python
entry, I've got a great trick up my sleeve.
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h
tion like this one, that you use a new subject
header. It will make it easier for the Python-Dev summary
authors and for the people who look back in 20 years to ask
"That str.partition() function is really swiggy! It's everywhere
now, but I wonder what language had it first and who came
ort simple scripts.
Nearly everything I write these days is larger and more complex, but
I retain a soft spot for short simple scripts and want Python to
continue to be the best tool available for these tasks.
-- Michael Chermside
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e, then perhaps someone
would be encouraged to supply a patch.
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e and complain if it weren't).
Simplicity and elegence are two of the reasons that this is such
an excellent proposal, let's not lose them. We have existing
tools (like split() and the re module) to handle the tricky
problems.
-- Michael Chermside
7;re calling "string views".
I wonder whether there is a way to instrument a JVM to record how often
the underlying buffers are shared, then run some common Java apps. Since
the feature is exactly analogous to what is being proposed here,
ity to write in the "Python
3.0 style" (all new-style classes, only raise proper exceptions,
etc) in the 2.x series is a VERY useful feature. We want to handle
the transition better than Perl.
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d to a stream of unicode
characters) and later modified things to allow manual control of the
encoding because "modern" operating systems (like Windows) have two
distinct file types.
Don't blame the language designers, blame the OS folks.
-- Michael Chermside
lize
that slice literals are allowed only within subscripts and thus do not
conflict with this use.
-- Michael Chermside
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minor incompatibilities no matter how hard we try, but just imagine how
the Perl5 users today would feel if they were told that they could use
Perl6 code in the Perl5 interpreter by using the "@ .fture. <<" command.
I love making Perl users jealous, so I certainly wouldn't vote
tinction is
supported by the basic file operations in the C library. To open a
text file in binary mode is technically an error (although in many OSs
you'll get away with it).
-- Michael Chermside
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this is a FRF (Frequently Requested
Feature). I'm not arguing in favor of it, just pointing out that
using "star unpacking" in tuple and list literals is an idea that
I'm sure I've seen proposed at least a couple of times before.
This doesn't necessarily make it a good id
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