g said that, I'd be all for including a reference implementation of a
bytecode-only loader in the PEP for demonstration purposes. Greg, would you
like to contribute that?
-Barry
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/issue7250
If there is anything else that absolutely should go into 2.6.5, now's the time
to let me know. If there are no patches ready to be reviewed and landed
though, you're probably running out of time. I will be very conservative about
landing patches after
en name your zip file "application.dat" to really throw naive
users off the scent. ;)
-Barry
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;some' protection is enough and having Python not
>support this (out of the box) would be a black mark against Python for them.
Would it not be better to ship a zip file with an obfuscated name? Doesn't
that satisfy the use case nicely?
-Barry
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becomes a source of documentation. Not supporting bytecode only
>python modules and packages in pythons "lib" directory may be good.
Actually, it's not the standard library that's the issue, it's third party
modules that OS vendors distribute.
-Bar
section to the PEP describing the options
for bytecode-only support.
I think there are better ways to satisfy the bytecode-only packager
requirements than supporting it by default, always, in the standard importer,
but let's enumerate the pros and cons and then make a decision.
-Ba
On Feb 26, 2010, at 02:55 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:
>Here is a question for Barry to think about if he decides to move forward
>with all of this: would mixed support for both bytecode-only and
>source/bytecode be required for the same directory, or could it be one or
>the other
-- where the PEP will never place them, at least not by
>default.
Exactly so.
-Barry
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people, including me.
I completely agree.
-Barry
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support pyc-only imports,
people are rightly going to want us to write and support the tool to create
those imports.
-Barry
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oned
for pyc-only imports is to make it more difficult for users to accidentally
shoot themselves in the foot. I think the very presence of a zip file for
importing is enough without the extra step of removing the source. But that's
just me. :)
-Barry
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Thanks everybody for providing great input on this aspect of the PEP. I've
updated the open issues section to include a list of the possible resolutions
for bytecode-only imports. Unless anybody has more ideas, it might just be
time to get a BDFL pronouncement.
-Barry
signatur
etween Python versions.
I think that's fair, and just the guidance I'm looking for. By now you
understand the pros and cons, so if this is a pronouncement, I will cement it
into the PEP.
-Barry
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On Mar 02, 2010, at 10:54 PM, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
>Correct - I deleted the DNS record, and the site, as it didn't work
>anymore (and because Barry confirmed that it is ok to delete the site)
Yep, sorry. I didn't realize it was still in use.
-Barry
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will do the final
release on Monday March 15, 2010. Please test the release candidate as
much as possible in the meantime, and help make 2.6.5 a rock solid release!
Thanks,
-Barry
P.S. The Mac installer will hopefully be available soon.
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_ directory will be
>created, just like today.
Correct.
-Barry
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uld people think about that?
-Barry
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ll just keep what's in
the PEP.
-Barry
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reed, please restore the diffs!
-Barry
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ough changes to doctest, or through changes of
>str.__repr__.
I think Michael was also talking about changes to doctest that would
automatically sort dictionaries and sets. Again, it's not hard to write
doctests correctly, but it's surprisingly common to implicitly rely on sort
order
. I meant that in doctests, you probably don't
need to be confronted by the string type every single time. It's just not
that interesting for documentation, most of the time. I have no problem
adding (unit)tests that ensure your outputs and values are of the expected
type though!
-B
think must go into 2.6.5, mark them release
blockers now so that I can evaluate them.
I really don't want there to be an rc3, and I'd still like to get 2.6.5 final
out on Monday 2010-03-15. We'll see.
-Barry
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Hi Python hackateers!
It looks like we finally have no more release blockers for 2.6.5rc2. I would
like to tag the tree tonight for rc2 so that Martin can build the Windows
installer for a release tomorrow. I am also moving the final release back to
Friday March 19.
-Barry
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problems on OS X have
been fixed since rc1, and I'm really hoping we will not have to do an rc3.
I'm currently planning on releasing 2.6.5 final on March 19, 2010.
Enjoy,
-Barry
P.S. The Mac installer will hopefully be available soon.
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ort creation of bytecode-only
distributions out of the box.
-Barry
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laden Swallow blazes the trail.
-Barry
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On Mar 12, 2010, at 10:48 PM, Michael Foord wrote:
>On 12/03/2010 19:53, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> I believe we've decided /not/ to support creation of bytecode-only
>> distributions out of the box.
>>
>
>I thought Guido said on this topic [1]:
>
>&quo
s import system"
>or "same as Python 3.1" make more sense as the default semantics -
>probably the former).
I don't understand this point.
compileall probably /could/ be extended to understand bytecode-only
(i.e. legacy or <3.2) layout. I&
obably also be covered in the PEP.
Thanks; added to PEP.
-Barry
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On Mar 15, 2010, at 07:43 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
>He did (in favour of keeping the directory visible).
http://www.mail-archive.com/python-dev@python.org/msg45203.html
(added to pep)
-Barry
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On Mar 16, 2010, at 03:51 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
>My plan is to tag 3.1.2 sometime on Thursday, so binaries can be built
>for the final release on Saturday. Agreeable?
I might as well do the same for 2.6.5, though I plan on releasing it Friday.
-Barry
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disk image will be uploaded soon.
http://www.python.org/download/releases/2.6.5/
For more information on Python 2.6 in general, please see
http://docs.python.org/whatsnew/2.6.html
Please report bugs for any Python version in the Python tracker.
http://bugs.python.org
Enjoy,
-Barry
on or refuse to create __pycache__ if it's not writable
(again, by whom?)
Or maybe you have a better idea? What's the equivalent situation on Windows
and how would things work there?
-Barry
[1] https://edge.launchpad.net/~barry/python/pep3147
P.S. I'm down to
branch modifies py_compile to produce PEP 3147 layout by default.
I agree that it should support traditional pyc output as an option, and
compileall should support this as well.
-Barry
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On Mar 22, 2010, at 02:30 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>Barry Warsaw python.org> writes:
>>
>> * Tough luck
>> * Force the umask so that the directory is writable, but then the question
>> is,
>> by whom? ugo+w or something less?
>> * Copy the permis
hon -m compileall --pycache", if someone implements it.
Except that most people won't do this, they'll just run Python. I wouldn't
count this as "enabled by default".
-Barry
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che' would work, but I think it's also obscure enough that
most Python users won't get the benefit.
-Barry
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range pre-creation though compileall with the right layout and presumably
the right umask if you want.
-Barry
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think my proposal is
>"tough luck". Don't try to be super-smart; as Antoine explains, it gets
>worse, not better. If the user has arranged that Python will create
>unusable directories, the user better changes his setup.
I completely agr
grow a --clean option which would be essentially
equivalent to
find . -name '__pycache__' | xargs rmdir
-Barry
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you are the right user, with the right umask.
I don't think they're mutually exclusive. We will definitely give users the
tool to do compilation at install time via compileall. That needn't preclude
on-demand creation, which will generally Just Work.
-Barry
signatur
o there now, so why would PEP 3147 change that?
-Barry
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f the PEP's original
intention. I leave it to the BDFL.
-Barry
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On Mar 23, 2010, at 12:02 AM, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
>I think the appropriate action at this point is to record this specific
>objection in the PEP.
Done.
-Barry
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Pyth
che__/...pyc file will be ignored. So this is
actually better than today because you can't accidentally load stale pyc files
-- if they live inside __pycache__. For backward compatibility we'll still
support loading lone pyc files in the source file directory (i.e. outside of
__pycache__).
On Mar 24, 2010, at 10:04 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
>Yep, that's my recollection as well. I don't recall seeing an update to
>state that clearly in the PEP go by on the checkins list though :)
Check again .
-Barry
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On Mar 24, 2010, at 11:06 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
>Ah yes, the recollection of seeing such a message is now quite fresh in
>my mind :)
Just don't tell Guido I borrowed his time machine keys!
-Barry
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r, you can check
out the branch by doing:
% bzr branch lp:~barry/python/pep3147
You can also view a live diff online:
https://code.launchpad.net/~barry/python/pep3147/+merge/22648
or just download the diff, which should apply cleanly against the py3k
Subversion branch (or pretty clos
possible. I will update the PEP.
-Barry
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On Apr 01, 2010, at 04:12 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>I now have a working implementation of PEP 3147 which passes all the existing,
>and new, tests. I'm sure there's still work to do, but I think the branch
>is in good enough shape to start getting some feedback from python-dev.
On Apr 06, 2010, at 09:57 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
>I've now added a review, too.
As did Brett. Thanks! I've responded and will upload a new patch set as soon
as I've verified the test suite passes.
-Barry
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f None is appropriate).
It bothers me a little to change this API, but OTOH, it's an *undocumented*
API, so I don't feel too badly. ;) Since this is one of the last things to
implement for PEP 3147, I thought I'd ask and see if anybody had any bette
On Apr 09, 2010, at 02:52 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>It may be undocumented but it doesn't start with _ and it exists to
>preserve backwards compatibility. So I recommend adding
>PyImport_ExecCodeModuleExEx().
Cool, thanks. Now I can't wait for PyImport_ExecCodeModule
ature complete, so it's probably
worth getting Guido to pronounce on the PEP pretty soon.
-Barry
P.S. 'bzr branch lp:~barry/python/pep3147'
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ht
ent Python's magic
tag. While we're at it, how about making both the tag and the number
attributes of the imp module, instead of functions like .get_magic()? Of
course we'd keep the latter for backward compatibility.
-Barry
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On Apr 09, 2010, at 05:41 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Paul Moore wrote:
>> Would it be better to name this one _PyImport_ExecCodeModuleExEx (with
>> an underscore) so that we *don't* need to create an ExExEx version in
>> future? (So
On Apr 10, 2010, at 08:28 PM, Georg Brandl wrote:
>Am 10.04.2010 18:12, schrieb Guido van Rossum:
>> On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>>> On Apr 09, 2010, at 05:41 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Paul
On Apr 11, 2010, at 02:39 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
>Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> I don't have strong feelings about this. I thought it would be handy for
>> future Python's to have access to this, but then, without access to previous
>> version magic numbers, it probably
ood catch. Right now (in my current branch) it is undefined. It should be
None.
-Barry
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On Apr 14, 2010, at 12:17 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
>Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> On Apr 13, 2010, at 11:13 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
>>
>>> barry.warsaw wrote:
>>>> +It is recommended that when nothing sensible can be calculated,
>>>> +implementation
y external
branches.
Guido, what say you?
-Barry
PEP: 3147
Title: PYC Repository Directories
Version: $Revision: 80025 $
Last-Modified: $Date: 2010-04-12 22:17:40 -0400 (Mon, 12 Apr 2010) $
Author: Barry Warsaw
Status: Draft
Type: Standards Track
Content-Type: text/x-rst
Created: 2009-12-16
Python-Ve
efore announcing the
release, but generally don't wait for Ronald to produce the Mac images, so I
leave those commented out too. When Ronald builds the Mac image and provides
it to me, I'll upload them and tweak the page.
-Barry
signature.
On Apr 13, 2010, at 04:44 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>Give me a couple of days; but I don't expect any problems given how
>the earlier discussion went. If you didn't hear from me by Friday go
>ahead and merge.
Thanks Guido.
-Barry
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On Apr 14, 2010, at 07:04 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote:
>Yeah, the only time it uses byte-compiled files is if the original
>source is missing. Setting __cached__ to None for that case as well
>sounds like a reasonable starting point.
Cool, thanks.
-Barry
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ady make such a caveat in the release
announcement.
-Barry
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getting all the necessary dependencies in place and the
expertise to know the steps that are required to build. A network accessible
machine for Mac and Windows, where other experts such as Martin and Roland can
help maintain and configure, would be ideal. That way, and of the platform
,
as well as updates to PEP 101 for any process steps that can't be automated.
This goes for both Windows and OS X.
-Barry
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d no access to anything Windows. Now I
do, though it's a bit of a PITA (because I have to reboot my main dev box).
How can I get a license and the tools? Installing the express version was
pretty easy, though it has limitations of course.
-Barry
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st?)
>the file contents, will contain the magic tag.
Yep, that clarifies things. Thanks.
-Barry
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l update it to be clear that None is an acceptable
return value from imp.cached_from_source() (which is the one I think you
mean), and also what __cached__=None means.
Thanks Brett and Nick.
-Barry
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, but given the
Python release schedule, that could be 2.6, 2.7 and 3.1. If we really do
include all three versions, I will push for backporting the feature (enabled
with -Xcachedir) in our releases so that we can gain the benefit of ditching
the symlink farms as soon as possible.
-Barry
signatu
in Python 3.2 (and possibly
>> 2.7), this behavior will be turned on by default, and in fact, it will
>> replace the old behavior. Backports will need to support the old
>> layout by default. We suggest supporting PEP 3147 through the use of
>> an environment variable called `$PYTHONENABLECACHEDIR` or the command
>> line switch `-Xenablecachedir` to enable the feature.
>
>I would be okay if a distro decided to turn it on by default, as long
>as there was a way to opt out.
For Python 2.6, even for a distro-specific backport, I think I'd want to
enable it only with a switch. It might be weird for example if Python 2.6 in
Ubuntu 10.04 produced traditional pyc files, but Python 2.6 in Ubuntu 10.10
produced PEP 3147 file names. For a backport to Python 2.7 though (which
e.g. would be new in Ubuntu 10.10), it might make sense to enable it by
default.
Either way, we're really talking about the effects on user code only. We'll
definitely enable it as part of the package installation tools.
Thanks again Guido. I think this hits all your feedback. Now to land the
code!
-Barry
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On Apr 16, 2010, at 11:52 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>To the contrary, it was invented by Barry and ought to be added to the
>English language as a neologism.
Actually, it's an Emacs invention!
-Barry
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uld just write:
>>
>> parser.add_argument('--version', action='version', version='> version>')
>
>I like this the best. I don't like argparse adding arguments for me.
I concur. This gives me all the flexibility I need to make my
t;> many products generated on demand.
>>
>
>The left panel on
>http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/subscriptions/cc137115.aspx has the full
>list of currently available products if anyone wants to know what's all
>involved here.
This is really awesome. I have an OE
that we're into beta, I don't think we can do it
now, so I would suggest updating the PEP. If they have been enabled then we
need to update NEWS and What's New.
-Barry
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On Apr 21, 2010, at 02:56 PM, Mark Dickinson wrote:
>On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> While talking about Python 2.6 -> 2.7 transitions, the subject of relative
>> and
>> absolute imports has come up. PEP 328 states that absolute imports will be
On Apr 23, 2010, at 05:44 PM, Victor Stinner wrote:
>I'm not sure that it's a good idea to change the build process after the
>first beta. It would depend on the issue comments ;-)
OTOH, this doesn't seem like a new feature, so I think it should be okay.
Doubly so if it
ith-foo
>--without-foo
>--no-foo
>--foo=yes
>--foo=no
>
>I've been happily using it, and I think it would be of sufficient general
>interest to include it with the standard library.
+1. This would be a very nice addition to argparse in the stdlib.
-Barr
nk the HGtP should provide
clear examples of best practices, and tools to adhere to them where possible.
It is okay (in fact encouraged) to be opinionated and not provide a lot of
variation. Advanced developers can figure out how to do complex things
correctly, but let's make it easy for the simp
? (I'm pretty sure
we've talked about this before.)
-Barry
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On Apr 27, 2010, at 12:03 AM, Tarek Ziadé wrote:
>On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 11:45 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>[..]
>>
>> For example, there's a nice tool called 'Quickly' that builds application
>> templates using best practices. It is opinionated, but desig
On Apr 26, 2010, at 04:56 PM, Robert Kern wrote:
>On 4/26/10 4:46 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> On Apr 26, 2010, at 09:39 PM, Tarek Ziadé wrote:
>>
>>> You should be permissive on that one. Until we know how to describe resource
>>> files properly, __file__ is what d
his way.
With Bazaar, I often use a loom with two threads - a bottom one that contains
the test that fails, and a top one that contains the fix for the test. It's a
great way to develop a patch, but you lose that once you flatten the code for
review.
projected date that Python 2.6 will go
into security-only maintenance mode.
I would not mandate that we go back and update all previous PEPs for either of
these ideas. We'd adopt them moving forward and allow anyone who's motivated
to backfill information opportunistically.
Thoughts?
On Apr 27, 2010, at 11:43 AM, R. David Murray wrote:
>I wonder if it would be better to encourage people to post the unit
>tests and the fix as separate patch files.
I think this is not bad idea for larger fixes, where it's not trivial to
manually edit the diff.
-Barry
si
On Apr 27, 2010, at 02:37 PM, Tres Seaver wrote:
>You can always "shelve" the part of the patch which isn't the test: I
>do that pretty frequently in the Zope tree, where I am now doing most
>development with bzr.
Yes definitely. bzr-loom just makes that much e
e resolution in the PEP, be it by BDFL
pronouncement or "hey, silence is acceptance" email.
Cheers,
-Barry
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On May 01, 2010, at 08:58 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
>On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 21:09, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>>>Though maybe it should be called Conclusion instead of Accepted and
>>>used for Rejected PEPs, as well?
>>
>> Good point. What do you think about &#x
re-opening and approving
PEPs like 313, 336, and 666.
In the meantime, let's groom Benjamin to be the Sacred Next Uncle Galvanizing
the Gamut of Language Evolution.
-Barry
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contentious decisions can be
discussed and advice gathered.
-Barry
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story can
be preserved across the svn->hg import, it's enough of a break to bite the
bullet and fix the code. I think we only need to convert the py3k branch
though.
-Barry
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to all these branches.
Then let's do py3k and release31-maint, or whatever they will be called under
hg. Once 2.7 is released and we're on hg, how much back porting of revisions
from Python 3 -> 2 is going to happen?
-Barry
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The numbering is changing over
> time.
They're only unstable if you regenerate the archives and the mbox file is old
enough to have been a victim of a long-fixed delimiter bug. Which is true for
python-dev.
-Barry
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commercial). You
should check things though because it's based on heuristics that can sometimes
be fooled.
-Barry
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to Python 3, then I think we do them
the biggest service to be explicit about our intentions for maintenance of 2.7
and the future of Python 2.
-Barry
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he move to its final release, which will happen after Ubuntu 10.10. is
released.
It seems that most discussions are happening on the debian-python mailing list
right now.
they-don't-call-it-maverick-for-nuthin'-ly y'rs,
-Barry
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documentation. Maybe even provide an example
#ifdef in the latter.
Should we start thinking about releasing 2.6.6 soonish?
-Barry
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On May 20, 2010, at 06:01 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
>On 5/20/2010 5:52 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> On May 20, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>>
>>> Sounds good to me, since this is (a) a security fix that will make
>>> some vendors happy, and (b) only
g fix arrives two weeks earlier.
Partly that, yes. But also, 2.7 final is not scheduled until July, so we
could fit one more release in I think. If there's no clamor for it, I'm also
happy to just wait for 2.6.6 until after Python 2.7 is released.
-Barry
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