oesn't getattr search the __dict__'s
along the __mro__ list?
Yes, but getattr(obj, ... ALSO searches obj itself, which is what we're
trying to avoid here.
getattr(type(obj), ... OTOH has a DIFFERENT problem -- it ALSO searches
type(type(obj)), t
quot;obvious
once thought of" idea, and thanks, Guido, for providing it.
Alex
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k that by the time we
actually implement PEP 246 in the Python core, this part of the
semantics should be specified (at least the default behavior, even if
there are hooks to change this).
Very good point -- thanks Phillip and Guido jointly for pointing this
out.
Alex
On 2005 Jan 12, at 17:40, Phillip J. Eby wrote:
At 04:36 PM 1/12/05 +0100, Alex Martelli wrote:
I already know -- you told us so -- that if I had transitivity as you
wish it (uncontrollable, unstoppable, always-on) I could not any more
write and register a perfectly reasonable adapter which
Needing to be explicit and therefore to typechecking/typeswitching to
pick which adapter to apply is just what I don't *WANT* to do, what I
don't want *ANYBODY* to have to do EVER, and the very reason I'm
spending time and energy on PEP 246. So, how would you propose I know
wh
On 2005 Jan 12, at 19:16, Guido van Rossum wrote:
...
[Alex]
Hm?
I meant if there were multiple A's. For every Ai that has an Ai->B you
would also have to register a trivial Ai->C. And if there were
multiple C's (B->C1, B->C2, ...) then the number of extra adaptors to
e were more important than that,
then other ``costs'' besides the extreme NO_ADAPTER_NEEDED [[0 cost]]
and DOES_NOT_SUPPORT [[infinite cost]] should be accepted, and the
minimal-cost path ensured -- I do not think any such complication is
warranted)).
I think maybe this gets us a
OES want to assert that it's perfectly / losslessly / etc
substitutable for the one being inherited.
Alex
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for IBas as
well as inheriting (widening) of it; when that is not possible, the
Java programmer, although surprised, will most likely be better off for
having to be a tad more explicit.
Alex
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the
right thing via special descriptors, that I must spell everything out,
or, what else...?
If anybody has advice or feedback on these points, it will be welcome!
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On 2005 Jan 13, at 03:57, Phillip J. Eby wrote:
Okay, I'm really out of time now. Hate to dump this in as a possible
spoiler on PEP 246, because I was just as excited as Alex about the
possibility of it going in. But this whole debate has made me even
less enamored of adaptation, and
On 2005 Jan 12, at 18:59, Guido van Rossum wrote:
...
[Alex]
Armin's fix was to change:
...
[And then proceeds to propose a new API to improve the situation]
I wonder if the following solution wouldn't be more useful (since less
code will have to be changed).
The descriptor for _
tside of the canonical, widespread approach to OOP).
Anyway -- I'm pointing out that what to put in a rewrite of PEP 246 as
a result of all this is anything but obvious at this point, at least to
me.
Alex
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s
| this harm PEP 246? I'm not sure.
Well, PEP 246 should be edited, IMHO, to assert that all 'implicit'
adaptions are out-of-scope, and if they are supported should be done
so under the direct control of the application developer.
So, are you willing to do that round of editing to P
l this is anything but obvious at this point, at
least to me.
LOL. Me either!
...so let's hope Clark has clearer ideas, as it appears he does: as per
a previous msg, I've asked him if he could be the one doing the next
round of edits, instead of me...
Alex
__
from
the Model) it must still record some few presentation-only details
locally, such as, say, the font to use?
I'm not sure I'm all that enthusiastic about this crucial aspect of
PJE's new "more pythonic than Python" [r]evolution, if it's being
presented correctly
nd 2.4.
Sure -- what way, though? The way I proposed in my last post about it?
Alex
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we
should specify only one for PEP 246 too.
| So, are you willing to do that round of editing to PEP 246...? I'll
| then to the NEXT one which will still undoubtedly be needed...
I could make a wack at it this weekend.
Great! I assume you have copies of all relevant mails since
On 2005 Jan 13, at 22:43, Paramjit Oberoi wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:40:56 +0100, Alex Martelli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
So please explain what's imperfect in wrapping a str into a StringIO?
If I understand Philip's argument correctly, the problem is this:
def print_n
be enriched to make sure they
catch the bug (no doc change needed, it seems to me).
I can do it this weekend if the general approach is OK, since Clark has
kindly agreed to do the next rewrite of PEP 246;-).
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On 2005 Jan 14, at 04:08, David Ascher wrote:
Alex Martelli wrote:
Yes, there is (lato sensu) "non-determinism" involved, just like in,
say:
for k in d:
print k
Wow, it took more than the average amount of googling to figure out
that lato sensu means "broadly s
, but maybe
strftime should make available whatever formatting item[s] strptime may
grow to support fractions of a second; and one such item (distinct from
%S for guaranteed backwards compatibility) should be "seconds and
fraction, with [[presumably, locale-specific]] decimal point inside"
s an
ATTRIBUTE of a struct_time, not an ITEM (==iteration on a struct_time
will keep working just line now).
Alex
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, and has many other differences.
Alex
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cause by then it is definitely too
late to do anything about it.
Fair enough, but for Guido's suggested syntax of "def f(X:Y):..."
meaning X=adapt(X,Y) at function entry, the issue is how that
particular "default/implicit" adaptation should behave -- is it always
allowed
morphic to making every object weakly referenceable,
wouldn't it? Or am I missing something...?
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was in 2.2
suffered that problem, but it was a design problem, and is now fixed.
Alex
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y
case deals with 2.3 and 2.4 maintenance and he's release manager for
both, but, of course, everybody's welcome to help!). Surely this can't
be the first case in which a bug got triggered only by a certain
behavior in an extension type, but I couldn't
made very normally
and strings are grandfathered in, we ARE down to exoteric breakage
cases (potentially fixable by those new magic descriptors as above for
specialmethods).
Alex
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.
Without inheritance you might similarly say:
class AnotherOne(Exception):
__metaclass__ = type
...
This, in itself, could break existing code.
Not necessarily, see my previous post. But anyway, PJE's proposal is
less invasive than making Exception itself
On 2005 Jan 16, at 11:17, Raymond Hettinger wrote:
[Alex]
So, as per discussion here, I have prepared a patch (to the
maintenance
branch of 2.3, to start with) which adds unit tests to highlight these
issues, and fixes them in copy.py. This patch should go in the
maintenance of 2.3 and 2.4, but
On 2005 Jan 16, at 12:03, Fredrik Lundh wrote:
Alex Martelli wrote:
Problem: to write unit tests showing that the current copy.py
misbehaves with a classic extension
type, I need a classic extension type which defines __copy__ and
__deepcopy__ just like /F's
cElementTree does. So, I made o
testing blissfully well. I haven't even made the compilation of
the part of Modules/_testcapi.c which hold the new type conditional
upon anything, because I don't think that having it there
unconditionally can possibly break anything anyway... _testcapi IS only
used for testing, aft
x27;s surely possible, but if so it seems it should be possible to
explain this in terms of particular properties of type unicode.
Alex
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think).
of course it's possible: that's what the interpreter does when it loads
a script or module, after all... or in other words,
print repr("""
""")
always prints "\n" (at least on Unix (\n) and Windows (\r\n)).
Mac, too (but then, th
elf.attr.
Good point: this is also known as "Law of Demeter" and relevant
summaries and links are for example at
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/lieber/LoD.html .
Alex
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nyone else (particularly those with PEAK and Zope interface
experience) think such a class would be beneficial in encouraging good
practices?
Yes, there was something just like that in Nevow (pre-move to the zope
interfaces) and it sure didn't hurt.
Alex
___
._deepcopy_dispatch, AND doesn't have an __mro__? Even
the _testcapi.Copyable type magically grows an __mro__; I'm not sure
how to MAKE a type w/o one...
Thanks,
Alex
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.4.1 but not in 2.3.5 -- exactly for the
reasons Jeremy is giving.
Alex
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xed.
(H, is it only me, or is sourceforce bug browsing broken for bugs
with 7-digits numbers? This one was 1114776 -- first one w/a 7-digit
number I had yet seen -- and in no way could I get the browser to list
it, it kept listing only 6-digit ones...).
Alex
ts
broken makes my teeth grit). I do admit that this kind of issue makes
a good case for more formalized interfaces...;-)
Alex
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read the task of explaining / teaching about
the rationale for this somewhat kludgy transitional solution [[empty
parentheses may be written OR omitted, with large difference in
meaning, not very related to other cases of such parentheses]], even
though I think you're rig
his: in
this latter construct, Python's mechanisms determine ClassType as the
metaclass (it's the metaclass of the first base class), but then
ClassType in turn sniffs around for another metaclass to delegate to,
among the supplied bases, and having found one washes its hands of the
w
more updates" perhaps some
indication of deprecation would be warranted. ((In any case, I do
think the mixins would be useful)).
Alex
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On 2005 Feb 20, at 17:06, Guido van Rossum wrote:
[Alex]
I did have some issues w/UserString at a client's, but that was
connected to some code doing type-checking (and was fixed by injecting
basestring as a base of the client's subclass of UserString and
ensuring the type-checking a
r type, for example. Also, strings might be
recognizable by other means, e.g. the presence of a lower() method or
some other characteristic method that doesn't apply to sequence in
general.
Sure, there would many possibilities.
(To Alex: leaving transform() out of the string interface seems to m
te one) should ideally be available. An
optional use_partials keyword argument defaulting to False, for
example, might allow that... (again, I've hopefully clarified the
issues in another 2nd ed Cookbook recipe, I guess I can post that if it
helps).
Alex
__
;'.join is that it proves SOMEbody considered it important to deal with
a list of either str or unicode in the joining context... why not in
the sorting context then?).
Alex
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On Mar 11, 2005, at 19:39, Raymond Hettinger wrote:
[Alex]
If you're considering revisions to sum's design, my suggestion would
be
to find a way to let the user tell sum to use a more accurate approach
when summing floats.
FWIW, when accuracy is an issue, I use:
sum(sorted(dat
ms to meet this criterion).
Alex
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searching on the month's archives by
subject.
Reading the whole thread will help with the pro's and con's, but the
conclusions are mostly in Guido's post
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2003-April/034853.html and
my concurring reply
http://ma
n't 2.5 "supposed to be"
mostly about standard library reorganizations, enhancements, etc? Were
there some MAJOR gains to be had in syntax additions, guess that could
be bent, but snipping the [ for ...] leading part seems just such
a tiny issue. (If the discussion is about 3.0, and
isinstance(value, basestring):
return value + ''.join(itr)
for item in itr:
value += item
return value
...? This doesn't break bw compat since currently when value's a
string sum would raise an exception...
Alex
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ve
used sum in production code DOES come under the general concept of
"numbers", in particular X+0 == X. Unfortunately, this equation
doesn't hold when X is a timedelta, as X+0 raises an exception then.
Alex
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Py
sequence bound to 'x'
after making the copy, how is the above different from list(seq)?
Well, it's less concise, and over an order of magnitude slower:
Nimue:~/pypy alex$ python2.4 -mtimeit -s'seq=range(1000)' '[x for x in
seq]'
1000 loops, best of 3: 312 us
Manheimer
Moshe Zadka
Moshe was at Pycon (sorry I didn't think of introducing you to each
other!) so I do assume he's still active.
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hines are so
much
more powerful than VAXen, they have much more influence over Python
development.
The latest ads I've seen from Cray were touting AMD-64 processors
anyway...;-)
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the block take keyword arguments to tweak its namespace (but
assignments within the block should still affect its _surrounding_
namespace, it seems to me...).
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...whatever block..
in each and every otherwise-duplicated-logic case... now THAT is
progress!!!
IOW, +1 ... !
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UK), so it seems far
from unlikely to me that he might be back to active contributions soon.
Anyway, you can ask him directly.
Alex
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hole file reading (which can be
Looking for a file with a certain magicnumber in its 1st two bytes...?
for name in filenames:
opening(name) as f:
if f.read(2) == 0xFEB0: break
This does seem to make real-life sense to me...
Alex
and so on. (Note the absence of a try/finally block in the generator
> -- the try/finally is guaranteed by the with-statement but not by the
> generator framework.)
I must be thick this morning, because this relatively straightforward
decorator isn't immediately obvious to me -- car
ary to call it more elegantly on
your behalf]. This doesn't neessarily argue that index should be in
the built-ins module, of course, but I thought there was a sentiment
towards having it in either the operator or math modules.
Alex
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ppened and
suggest the addition of an explicit 'rb' or 'wb' argument. This
unending chore, in particular, makes me very wary of forever keeping
open to mean "open this _text_ file".
Alex
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Pytho
hen in doubt, resist the temptation to guess"
strongly suggests not having 'open' as a built-in at all. (And
namemangling into openthis and openthat seems less Pythonic to me
than exploiting namespaces by making structured names, either
this.open and that.open or open.this and open.
ht start out
populated, but would always start with some default factory, such as
lambda:None I guess. I think the first alternative (autodict always
starts empty, but with a specifically chosen factory [including *a,
**k]) is more useful.
Alex
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tever!'
>>>
Maybe we could fix that by having property(getfunc) use
getfunc.__doc__ as the __doc__ of the resulting property object
(easily overridable in more normal property usage by the doc=
argument, which, I feel, should almost invariably be there).
Alex
___
4,
property(fset=acallable) does work (maybe silly, but it does make a
write-only property) -- with the patch as given, it would stop
working (due to attempts to get __doc__ from the None value of fget);
I think we should ensure it keeps working (and add a unit test to
th
more convenience.
From my POV, either or both of these additions would be an
improvement wrt 2.4 (as would most of the other alternatives debated
here), but I'm keen to have _some_ alternative get in, rather than
all being blocked out of 2.5 by "analysis paralysis".
Alex
_
an unending stream
of confused beginners (in addition to those confused by mutable
objects as default values for function arguments, but those can't be
avoided). I presume you consider the "one obvious way" is to use
default_value for immutables and default_factory for mut
een one more k than I had seen before".
Alex
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emind me what this means.
Roughly the same (save for method/function difference) as:
def getorset(d, key, func):
if key not in d: d[key] = func()
return d[key]
Alex
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T,
and say that M>N is the len(dir(...)) for instances of S. Well,
then, math.sqrt(N-len(dir(o2))) is well defined -- but change o2 into
o1, and since N-M is <0, you'll get an exception.
If you can give an introspection-free example showing how Liskov
On Feb 20, 2006, at 5:05 PM, Raymond Hettinger wrote:
> [Alex]
>>> I see d[k]+=1 as a substantial improvement -- conceptually more
>>> direct, "I've now seen one more k than I had seen before".
>
> [Guido]
>> Yes, I now agree. This means tha
ck (most recent call last):
>File "", line 1, in ?
> MemoryError
Definitely looks like a bug, please open a bug report for it.
Thanks,
Alex
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to fit. This leaves it open to the reader's
imagination to choose whether to think of the value as "initial" or
"default" -- it's the *auto* (automatic) value.
Alex
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http:
e called, only
overridden) a "private name" we're meeting enough of your and /F's
concerns to let _on_missing remain. Its existence does simplify the
implementation of defaultdict (and some other dict subclasses), and
"if the implementation is easy to explain, it may
mbers of Python:
>
> Guido van Rossum
> Alex Martelli
T-shirts? I'm an absolute fan of T-shirts...!-)
> The point is that I don't know some of you, so please grab my shoulder
> here in PyCon. And if you're not coming to the conference but somebody
>
x27;len' internally
calls foo.__len__()]] be just as friendly etc? No biggie either way,
but that would seem to be more aligned with Python's usual approach.
Alex
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is translated
at http://www.python.it/doc/Python-Docs/html/ (the C-API and
Extending and Embedding aren't translated, though), but it's 2.3.4-
vintage docs. There's no real mechanism or process to ensure updates.
Alex
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x;x=23), and I'd detest a similar 'outer' just as intensely (again,
what I'd like instead is a decent namespace) -- so I might well be
sympathetic to your POV, if I could but understand it;-).
Alex
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about Python closures being
meant for use like Haskell ones, hm?-) But, of course, they do want
to have their closure and rebind names too...
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ences in details since they developed these concepts
independently. Hey, what more do you need?-)
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> it's possible that .NET 2.0 would become a requirement.
You mean, to RUN vc8-compiled Python?! That would be perhaps the
first C compiler ever unable to produce "native", stand-alone code,
wouldn't it?
Alex
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n the case where I needed a dict, I inherited from
DictMixin and delegated some methods (with id(key) instead of key) to
a self.somedict -- if a dict could be built with a key function, the
solution would be both simpler and faster.
Alex
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st
> of Sunday, with dry cough and high fever. Or that's just a normal
> outcome of sprinting :-)
I got vaccinated against flu in Oct last year, and as a result
haven't had to take ANY sick day so far (darn, I'm wasting Google's
policy of g
ecause I can't give it +3.1415926...!!!). *Mandatory*
parentheses make this form MUCH more readable.
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-expression of
the condition, rather than the whole condition. E.g., in C,
while ( (x=next_x()) < threshold ) ...
being able to capture (by `as') only the whole (true or false)
condition meets a minority of the use cases, so I'm unenthusiastic
about it.
Alex
__
ew toy and agree with Jim
that mandatory parentheses around the whole (X if Y else Z) construct
would ameliorate legibility a bit.
Alex
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need a mixed module with something in C and
something in Python, we can do it the usual way, func.py wrapping
_func.pyd (or .so or whatever)...
Alex
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v is strictly for developers of Python itself, so please re-
post your issues to comp.lang.python.
Thanks,
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On Mar 13, 2006, at 7:22 PM, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
...
> Design Patterns in Python (3)
> Anything Alex Martelli wants to talk about.(3)
...
> Language howtos (I really enjoyed Alex Martelli's talk last year on
> itertools) (1)
Wow, I'm blushing;-). I promise
'd make
a lot of people pining for 'assignment as an expression' very happy,
wouldn't we...?
Alex
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Can't think of a more Pythonic way to celebrate St Patrick's day!-)
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reasonably, IMHO) [(x,y) for y,x in whatever] was mandated instead.
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nce regarding the specific issue
of PySet_Next.
So, having carefully staked out a position smack in the middle, I
cheerfully now expect to be fired upon from both sides!-)
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lar cases, and why couldn't PySet_Next behave similarly? (Yes, I
could/should look it up myself, but I'm supposed to be working on the
2nd Ed of the Nutshell, whose deadline is getting worryingly
close...;-).
Alex
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Python-
he volunteering
I've seen that should be feasible.
I just hope we get a BDFL +1 soon so I can add the good news to the
2nd ed of "Python in a Nutshell", which is due to go "printers-wards"
about 8-9 days from now (in order to be ready for OSCON -- the times
from final te
ers" don't get hurt --
that's how we added the ability to raise exceptions in different
threads, in particular. Not sure if this is the best solution here,
but I'm just pointing out that it's definitely not "unthinkable",
procedurally speaking.
Alex
locate tally if it were to be a function. defaultdict.tally would
be logically quite similar to dict.fromkeys, except that keys
happening repeatedly get counted (and so each associated to a value
of 1 and upwards) rather than "collapsed".
Alex
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