Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On 07.04.2013 21:50, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: So I believe that extension building is becoming more and more painful on Windows for Python 2.7 as time passes (and it is already way more painful than it is on Linux), and I see no way to do much about that. The "stable ABI" would have been a solut

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

;) there's the missing bit. btw apologies if that looked offensive: it wasn't intended. I disagree on "bilingual extension modules are easier". While #ifdef can sort some issues (compiling ones mostly) it won't be much of a help if a module crash (and not much help from testing either). In

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

> It almost always comes down to bytes vs. strings, IME. Cool, next time I have to port an extension written in C/C++ I'll be looking only for bytes vs. strings problems. I knew it was easy. Thanks ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.o

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On Apr 08, 2013, at 05:08 PM, Tres Seaver wrote: >FWIW, the effort of porting the "modern" bits of the Zope ecosystem (the >ones I still use in Pyramid apps today, meaning the component >architecture, the ZODB, and a few others) soaked up basically

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/08/2013 04:40 PM, Skip Montanaro wrote: > I'm really amazed at how many people seem to have the impression that > porting to Python 3 should be no big deal. FWIW, the effort of porting the "modern" bits of the Zope ecosystem (the ones I still

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

> If from the start you use: > - six ... There's the rub. We are not blessed with Guido's time machine where I work. Much of the Python code we run was written long before six was a gleam in anybody's eye. Heck, some of it was probably written before some active members of python-dev graduated

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Am 07.04.2013 20:02, schrieb Guido van Rossum: > But perhaps we could change the focus for 2.7 development a bit: > instead of fixing bugs (or bickering about whether something is a bug > fix or a new feature) we could limit changes to ensuring that it works > on newer platforms. Martin mentioned t

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

2013/4/8 Stephen Hansen : > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Christian Tismer > wrote: >> >> On 07.04.13 14:10, Skip Montanaro wrote: >> >> Where I work (a trading firm that uses Python as just one of many >> different pieces of technology, not a company where Python is the core >> technology upon

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On 08/04/2013 16:42, Stephen Hansen wrote: The thing is, 2.7 works. Some third-party libraries we rely upon have no clear sign for when they will be ported (such as wxPython), and though we are transitioning away from certain others (omniORB for Apache Thrift for example), that process itself is

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Christian Tismer wrote: > On 07.04.13 14:10, Skip Montanaro wrote: > > Where I work (a trading firm that uses Python as just one of many > different pieces of technology, not a company where Python is the core > technology upon which the firm is based) we are only

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote: > Per my last message, 2.7.4 has at long last been released. I apologize > for the long interval between 2.7.3 and 2.7.4. To create more > determinism in the future, I will be soon updating PEP 373 with > approximate dates of future 2.7 bugf

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

In article , Guido van Rossum wrote: [...] > But perhaps we could change the focus for 2.7 development a bit: > instead of fixing bugs (or bickering about whether something is a bug > fix or a new feature) we could limit changes to ensuring that it works > on newer platforms. Martin mentioned th

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On 4/7/2013 2:02 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: There's not much of a point in fixing bugs that always existed in 2.7, I has been suggested that backporting bugfix patches from current 3.x to 2.7 will make it easier to port from the atest 2.7.x to 3.x. I have no idea how true that is. since

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 12:58 AM, Gregory P. Smith wrote: > You're not looking at it from the users perspective. They see: > > "we are pleased to announce that RHEL 4 will be supported until the year > 3325" > > and continue to use everything that it ships with and only that. its their > own loss

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Barry Warsaw writes: > I would like to make a definitive statement as to 2.7's EOL because > I think that will spur more people to work on porting. I have to agree with the people who say that it's not a major spur. Internal support for existing Python 2.7 installations is by now quite a bit le

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On 08/04/13 07:41, Barry Warsaw wrote: I talked to someone at Pycon who was still using Python 1.5, which is probably older than some of the people on this list ;). Awesome! :-) -- Steven ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Apr 06, 2013, at 06:54 PM, Raymond Hettinger wrote: >At this year's Pycon keynote, I surveyed the crowd (approx 2500 people) >and all almost everyone indicated that they had tried out Python 3.x >and almost no one was using it in production or writing code for it. >That indicates that Python 2.

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Apr 06, 2013, at 05:02 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote: >This means we need to talk about how many more 2.7 releases there are >going to be. I'm all for putting stakes in the ground and clearly describing the future life of Python 2.7, rather than the current indefinite status quo. We talked abou

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

> But perhaps we could change the focus for 2.7 development a bit: > instead of fixing bugs (or bickering about whether something is a bug > fix or a new feature) we could limit changes to ensuring that it works > on newer platforms. Martin mentioned that building 2.7 for Windows > with the same to

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sun, 07 Apr 2013 11:48:28 -0400, "R. David Murray" wrote: > (much more if the fix doesn't apply cleanly), and I find myself more and > more likely to say "well, it's been that way in Python2 for a long while, > fixing it there is more likely to break things than it is to improve > things, so l

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

I have spent many years in industry working for large companies that have big, successful internal Python code bases, with dependencies on large numbers of external packages. From talking about colleagues about migrating to new language versions, several issues come forward. They all conspire to m

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Christian Tismer, 07.04.2013 15:53: > But I think every employee (including you) can quite easily put some pressure > on his company by claiming that Python 2.x is a dead end, and everybody is > about to move on to 3.x. > This does not have to be true, I just recognize that by claiming it and > do

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Am 07.04.13 16:58, schrieb Gregory P. Smith: > We don't need to close the 2.7 branch to commits and bug fixes. Ever. I wouldn't want this to happen, actually. People making changes to the 2.7 branch will want to see them released some day. The expectation is on the release people to actually make

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Mon, 08 Apr 2013 00:25:12 +0900, "Stephen J. Turnbull" wrote: > 2.x's EOL was discussed in the past (the thread about "why no 2.8?"), > and what we observe is nobody coming forward to maintain Python 2 for > the fun of it. People not only work on Python 3 for the fun of it, > but they even po

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Skip Montanaro writes: > It sounds like many people at PyCon are still 2.x users. I suspect we're all still 2.x users at some level. But the question is not "where are the users?" It's "where do the development resources come from?" Pretty clearly, the python-dev crowd has voted with their ke

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Am 07.04.2013 14:10, schrieb Skip Montanaro: > I started writing this last night before the flurry of messages which > arrived overnight. I thought originally, "Oh, Skip, you're being too > harsh." But now I'm not so sure. I think you are approaching the > issue of 2.7's EOL incorrectly. Of thos

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Christian Tismer wrote: > Hi Skip, > > > On 07.04.13 14:10, Skip Montanaro wrote: > > I started writing this last night before the flurry of messages which > arrived overnight. I thought originally, "Oh, Skip, you're being too > harsh." But now I'm not so sure.

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Hi Skip, On 07.04.13 14:10, Skip Montanaro wrote: I started writing this last night before the flurry of messages which arrived overnight. I thought originally, "Oh, Skip, you're being too harsh." But now I'm not so sure. I think you are approaching the issue of 2.7's EOL incorrectly. Of thos

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On 07.04.13 03:54, Raymond Hettinger wrote: On Apr 6, 2013, at 2:02 PM, Benjamin Peterson > wrote: we need to talk about how many more 2.7 releases there are going to be. At the release of 2.7.0, I thought we promised 5 years of bugfix maintenance, but my memory ma

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

2013/4/7 Skip Montanaro : > I started writing this last night before the flurry of messages which > arrived overnight. I thought originally, "Oh, Skip, you're being too > harsh." But now I'm not so sure. I think you are approaching the > issue of 2.7's EOL incorrectly. Of those discussing the en

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

2013/4/7 "Martin v. Löwis" : > Am 07.04.13 00:37, schrieb Benjamin Peterson: >> What I like about 6 months is that its short enough, so we don't have >> feel bad about not taking a certain change; it can just be pushed to >> the next no-too-far-away release. A year is quite a while to wait for >> a

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

I started writing this last night before the flurry of messages which arrived overnight. I thought originally, "Oh, Skip, you're being too harsh." But now I'm not so sure. I think you are approaching the issue of 2.7's EOL incorrectly. Of those discussing the end of Python 2.7, how many of you s

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Am 07.04.13 11:46, schrieb Tshepang Lekhonkhobe: > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Maciej Fijalkowski wrote: >> For what is worth, we'll maintain the stdlib part of 2.7 past 2 years. > > You mean 2 years beyond 2015 (assuming that will be end-of-bugfix date)? No, I think he means "beyond 2 years

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Am 07.04.13 00:37, schrieb Benjamin Peterson: > What I like about 6 months is that its short enough, so we don't have > feel bad about not taking a certain change; it can just be pushed to > the next no-too-far-away release. A year is quite a while to wait for > a fix to be released. It's also a ni

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sun, 07 Apr 2013 18:11:03 +1000 Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On 07/04/13 17:52, Maciej Fijalkowski wrote: > > If they never migrate on the premises of python 3 being a better > > language what does it say about python 3? > > Very little. People stick with languages for all sorts of reasons, > incl

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Maciej Fijalkowski wrote: > For what is worth, we'll maintain the stdlib part of 2.7 past 2 years. You mean 2 years beyond 2015 (assuming that will be end-of-bugfix date)? PS: I only noticed you were talking about PyPy because I recognized your name; others won't.

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

I think the question average python users have is "What's in it for me?". While the guts have undergone lots of changes, from the outside it is mostly perceived as the unicode-by-default and the print function. As per Bret's talk at pycon [1], speed is roughly the same, which is great, considering

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 6:01 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > Or, if they have paid support from a vendor like Red Hat, hassle the vendor > for a fix. Speaking of 2.3, as I understand it Red Hat still offer paid > support for 2.3, which won't expire for a few more years, and security fixes > only for s

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Maciej Fijalkowski, 07.04.2013 10:45: > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Stefan Behnel wrote: >> Maciej Fijalkowski, 07.04.2013 10:37: >>> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:32 AM, Stefan Behnel wrote: Maciej Fijalkowski, 07.04.2013 10:12: > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:51 AM, wrote: >> Quoting L

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Stefan Behnel wrote: > Maciej Fijalkowski, 07.04.2013 10:37: >> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:32 AM, Stefan Behnel wrote: >>> Maciej Fijalkowski, 07.04.2013 10:12: On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:51 AM, wrote: > Quoting Lennart Regebro: >> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 a

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Maciej Fijalkowski, 07.04.2013 10:37: > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:32 AM, Stefan Behnel wrote: >> Maciej Fijalkowski, 07.04.2013 10:12: >>> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:51 AM, wrote: Quoting Lennart Regebro: > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 7:11 AM, wrote: >> Wrt. to the 3.x migration rate: I t

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:32 AM, Stefan Behnel wrote: > Maciej Fijalkowski, 07.04.2013 10:12: >> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:51 AM, wrote: >>> Quoting Lennart Regebro: On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 7:11 AM, wrote: > Wrt. to the 3.x migration rate: I think this is a self-fulfilling > prophec

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Maciej Fijalkowski, 07.04.2013 10:12: > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:51 AM, wrote: >> Quoting Lennart Regebro: >>> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 7:11 AM, wrote: Wrt. to the 3.x migration rate: I think this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Migration rate will certainly increase once we announce >>>

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Lennart Regebro wrote: > That's the hangup IMO. Ending Python 2.7 will make no difference there > either good or bad, I think. We need to find other ways of improving > adoption. And to be clear: I am therefore not arguing *not* to end it. I just don't think that

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:51 AM, wrote: > > Quoting Lennart Regebro : > >> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 7:11 AM, wrote: >>> >>> Wrt. to the 3.x migration rate: I think this is a self-fulfilling >>> prophecy. Migration rate will certainly increase once we announce >>> an end of 2.7, and then again when

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On 07/04/13 17:52, Maciej Fijalkowski wrote: If they never migrate on the premises of python 3 being a better language what does it say about python 3? Very little. People stick with languages for all sorts of reasons, including: - It's what I know - I don't like change - That's what the clien

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:51 AM, wrote: > Quoting Lennart Regebro : >> Well... People are in general *stuck* on Python 2. They are not >> staying because they want to. So I'm not so sure migration rate will >> increase because an end is announced or reached. > > I assume you say that because peopl

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On 07/04/13 17:44, mar...@v.loewis.de wrote: Martin, you guys are shooting yourself in a foot. Almost noone uses python 3 in production, even at pycon, which is the more progressive crowd. There is a giant group of people using python that are not as vocal. While I bet some are using Python 3, Py

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Maciej Fijalkowski, 07.04.2013 09:52: > As far as I remember python 3 was supposed to be a better language, > not just "the maintained version". It's such a bad idea to force > people to go through porting because 2.x is not maintained any more. > If they never migrate on the premises of python 3 b

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Quoting Lennart Regebro : On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 7:11 AM, wrote: Wrt. to the 3.x migration rate: I think this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Migration rate will certainly increase once we announce an end of 2.7, and then again when the end is actually reached. Well... People are in general

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 9:44 AM, wrote: >> Martin, you guys are shooting yourself in a foot. Almost noone uses >> python 3 in production, even at pycon, which is the more progressive >> crowd. There is a giant group of people using python that are not as >> vocal. While I bet some are using Python

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Martin, you guys are shooting yourself in a foot. Almost noone uses python 3 in production, even at pycon, which is the more progressive crowd. There is a giant group of people using python that are not as vocal. While I bet some are using Python 3, Python 2 is incredibly popular for the "long tai

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 7:11 AM, wrote: > Wrt. to the 3.x migration rate: I think this is a self-fulfilling > prophecy. Migration rate will certainly increase once we announce > an end of 2.7, and then again when the end is actually reached. Well... People are in general *stuck* on Python 2. They

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 7:11 AM, wrote: > > Quoting Benjamin Peterson : > >> This means we need to talk about how many more 2.7 releases there are >> going to be. At the release of 2.7.0, I thought we promised 5 years of >> bugfix maintenance, but my memory may be fuddled. > > > I'd like to promot

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Quoting Benjamin Peterson : This means we need to talk about how many more 2.7 releases there are going to be. At the release of 2.7.0, I thought we promised 5 years of bugfix maintenance, but my memory may be fuddled. I'd like to promote the idea to abandon 2.7 bug fix releases earlier than

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 7:02 AM, Benjamin Peterson wrote: > Per my last message, 2.7.4 has at long last been released. I apologize > for the long interval between 2.7.3 and 2.7.4. To create more > determinism in the future, I will be soon updating PEP 373 with > approximate dates of future 2.7 bugf

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote: > juncture 5 total years of maintenance is reasonable. This means there > will be approximately 4 more 2.7 releases. That's good. From the subject of the email, I though you were announcing "This is the end of 2.7.x releases". 2 more year

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On 4/6/2013 5:11 PM, Georg Brandl wrote: Am 06.04.2013 23:02, schrieb Benjamin Peterson: Per my last message, 2.7.4 has at long last been released. I apologize for the long interval between 2.7.3 and 2.7.4. To create more determinism in the future, I will be soon updating PEP 373 with approximat

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Apr 6, 2013, at 2:02 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote: > we need to talk about how many more 2.7 releases there are > going to be. At the release of 2.7.0, I thought we promised 5 years of > bugfix maintenance, but my memory may be fuddled. I don't we need to make any "promises" beyond 5 years,

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

In article , Benjamin Peterson wrote: > 2013/4/6 Gregory P. Smith : > What I like about 6 months is that its short enough, so we don't have > feel bad about not taking a certain change; it can just be pushed to > the next no-too-far-away release. A year is quite a while to wait for > a fix to be

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

2013/4/6 Gregory P. Smith : > I agree with Benjamin though is it really necessary to do two 2.7 releases a > year for the last two years? that's rather rapid (but as the release > manager its your call). What I like about 6 months is that its short enough, so we don't have feel bad about not taki

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

I agree with Benjamin though is it really necessary to do two 2.7 releases a year for the last two years? that's rather rapid (but as the release manager its your call). A few of us (sorry I forgot who all was there though I think Martin was?) had a discussion at PyCon a few weeks ago and seemed

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Am 06.04.2013 23:11, schrieb Georg Brandl: > Am 06.04.2013 23:02, schrieb Benjamin Peterson: >> Per my last message, 2.7.4 has at long last been released. I apologize >> for the long interval between 2.7.3 and 2.7.4. To create more >> determinism in the future, I will be soon updating PEP 373 with

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

On Sat, 6 Apr 2013 17:02:17 -0400 Benjamin Peterson wrote: > Obviously, there will be people who would be > happy if we kept maintaining 2.7 until 2025, but I think at this > juncture 5 total years of maintenance is reasonable. This means there > will be approximately 4 more 2.7 releases. > > Tho

Re: [Python-Dev] The end of 2.7

Am 06.04.2013 23:02, schrieb Benjamin Peterson: > Per my last message, 2.7.4 has at long last been released. I apologize > for the long interval between 2.7.3 and 2.7.4. To create more > determinism in the future, I will be soon updating PEP 373 with > approximate dates of future 2.7 bugfix release