Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

Larry Hastings wrote: The PyCapsule API is very much like the CObject API. In fact, in Python 3.1 CObject was actually implemented on top of PyCapsule. It should be very easy to support both APIs. Perhaps the code for the 3.1 implementation could be pulled out and made available to people i

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On Mar 16, 2011, at 11:07 AM, Jesus Cea wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 11/03/11 22:50, Guido van Rossum wrote: >> I propose we try to find an "embedded blogger" who participates in >> python-dev but is focused on making regular blog posts about the >> interesting

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

I strongly opposed CObject deprecation in 2.7, as you can see in and mailing list archives. Interestingly enough, Lennart would have preferred a longer deprecation period, not a shorter one. So he would have been even more upset had the deprecation not be done

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 11/03/11 22:50, Guido van Rossum wrote: > I propose we try to find an "embedded blogger" who participates in > python-dev but is focused on making regular blog posts about the > interesting tidbits. There's no requirement to be complete (which I > t

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On 03/09/2011 01:15 AM, Stefan Behnel wrote: I can confirm that the Cython project was as surprised of the PyCapsule change in Python 3.2 as (I guess) most other users, I was a bit surprised by it too, and I wrote the Capsule object. (Well, hacked up CObject to give it a new API.) PyCObjec

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

2011/3/16 Jesus Cea : > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 08/03/11 22:16, Georg Brandl wrote: >> But in any case, by popular demand "fix" is now removed, and only >> "close" and its variants actually closes the issue -- since there >> is not much chance that you can write "clos

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 15/03/11 16:01, Lennart Regebro wrote: >> Python 2.6's API wasn't removed in 2.7. It remains available. > > But not in 3.2. And the new API appeared in 2.7. That is a deprecation > period of seven and a half months. I strongly opposed CObject depr

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/03/11 22:16, Georg Brandl wrote: > But in any case, by popular demand "fix" is now removed, and only > "close" and its variants actually closes the issue -- since there > is not much chance that you can write "close #12345" without > actually mea

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On 16 Mar, 2011, at 9:56, Nick Coghlan wrote: > > Interestingly, there is no definite time frame on the deprecation > warnings in that discussion. It was just the standard "deprecation in > X.Y means removal in X.Y+1" that lead to 3.2 no longer providing the > PyCObject API. Speaking of deprecat

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 9:11 AM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: > Am 16.03.11 08:06, schrieb Nick Coghlan: >> >> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 3:20 AM, Stefan Behnel >>  wrote: >>> >>> I still consider this is mostly a communication issue. If this change had >>> been properly written up, preferably in a PEP,

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

Am 16.03.11 08:06, schrieb Nick Coghlan: On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 3:20 AM, Stefan Behnel wrote: I still consider this is mostly a communication issue. If this change had been properly written up, preferably in a PEP, including the reasoning for it to get done, I think this whole discussion would

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On 15 Mar, 2011, at 19:31, Greg Ewing wrote: > Martin v. Löwis wrote: > >> "There must be at least a one-year transition period between the >> release of the transitional version of Python and the release >> of the backwards incompatible version. > > I still think this is going to result in rud

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 3:20 AM, Stefan Behnel wrote: > I still consider this is mostly a communication issue. If this change had > been properly written up, preferably in a PEP, including the reasoning for > it to get done, I think this whole discussion would not have been necessary. Yes, I thin

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

Eric Smith, 16.03.2011 04:12: On 3/15/2011 10:58 PM, Lennart Regebro wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 22:42, Guido van Rossum wrote: Fortunately there may not be any more such cases since no new major versions of Python 2 will be released. So I'm not sure what an update of PEP 5 will buy us. Th

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

Lennart Regebro, 16.03.2011 00:04: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 18:56, Nick Coghlan wrote: why not just consider this another instance of the 2.x/3.x incompatibility? That's what it is after all. Apparently not, as the code already ran under Python 3.1. Personally, I would expect that breaking ba

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On 3/15/2011 10:58 PM, Lennart Regebro wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 22:42, Guido van Rossum wrote: Fortunately there may not be any more such cases since no new major versions of Python 2 will be released. So I'm not sure what an update of PEP 5 will buy us. That is a good point. But at lea

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 22:58, Lennart Regebro wrote: > That is a good point. But at least making sure no more API's get > deprecated in 3.3 (and preferably 3.4) I meant removed. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/m

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 22:42, Guido van Rossum wrote: > Fortunately there may not be any more such cases since no new major > versions of Python 2 will be released. So I'm not sure what an update > of PEP 5 will buy us. That is a good point. But at least making sure no more API's get deprecated

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On Mar 15, 2011, at 10:14 PM, Lennart Regebro wrote: > On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 21:54, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >> I don't know what other core devs, but I don't think this discussion is >> going anywhere. If porting the ZTK is a burden for you, perhaps you >> should try to find some financial suppo

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 7:14 PM, Lennart Regebro wrote: > On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 21:54, Antoine Pitrou wrote: >> I don't know what other core devs, but I don't think this discussion is >> going anywhere. If porting the ZTK is a burden for you, perhaps you >> should try to find some financial sup

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 10:14:12PM -0400, Lennart Regebro wrote: > Up until the reactions from the core Python developers on these real > world problems, it was hard work, but also fun. It is still. The majority of the responses were informative on backwards compatibility and release process. And

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 21:54, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > I don't know what other core devs, but I don't think this discussion is > going anywhere. If porting the ZTK is a burden for you, perhaps you > should try to find some financial support for it (or let other people > do it for you), rather than

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 21:16:58 -0400 Lennart Regebro wrote: > On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 19:14, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > Beside, if you need long-term support, there is a well-known solution: > > turn to a company that provides such support. That company can be called > > Redhat, Canonical, ActiveSta

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 19:14, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > Beside, if you need long-term support, there is a well-known solution: > turn to a company that provides such support. That company can be called > Redhat, Canonical, ActiveState or even Apple. The community of > volunteers called python-dev i

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

Martin v. Löwis wrote: "There must be at least a one-year transition period between the release of the transitional version of Python and the release of the backwards incompatible version. I still think this is going to result in rude shocks to people switching from 2 to 3 and jumping several

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 18:46:37 -0400 Lennart Regebro wrote: > > > Right - and that's why the deprecation period is not about supporting > > multiple versions, but to reduce the need for people to adjust their > > code on a quick notice. > > I think we need to adjust PEP 5 then. We can't keep on br

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 18:56, Nick Coghlan wrote: > why not just consider this another > instance of the 2.x/3.x incompatibility? That's what it is after all. Apparently not, as the code already ran under Python 3.1. //Lennart ___ Python-Dev mailing l

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Lennart Regebro wrote: > On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 15:39, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: >> Of course you could have. You could have added a version of your code >> that uses capsules (just as you are probably doing now). > > No I'm not. The numpy folks have shown it is

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 15:39, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: > Of course you could have. You could have added a version of your code > that uses capsules (just as you are probably doing now). No I'm not. > Right - and that's why the deprecation period is not about supporting > multiple versions, but

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

I noticed the API change now because it's gone from 3.2. That's how most API changes gets noticed: Things stop working. And that's OK. Deprecation periods are there to help you support multiple versions at the same time. That may be the source of misunderstanding. In my understanding, that's *no

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 12:02, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: > If you actually had been supporting 2.x and 3.x in parallel for the last two > years, you would have had a deprecation period of 19 months > and two releases. It's only if you are now migrating from 2 to 3 > that you notice the breakage for

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On 3/14/11 5:30 PM, Lennart Regebro wrote: Many projects, not only the Zope Toolkit needs to support a lot of versions. The Zope component architecture currently supports 2.4, 2.5 and 2.6 and is expected to work on 2.7. I don't know if 2.4 or 2.5 can be dropped, but it definitely will be *years*

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

Python 2.6's API wasn't removed in 2.7. It remains available. But not in 3.2. And the new API appeared in 2.7. No, it didn't. It first appeared in 3.1. That is a deprecation period of seven and a half months. Not true. It's a deprecation period of 19 months and two releases (3.1 and 2.7)

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 19:22, Reid Kleckner wrote: > I don't know how your code works, but handling either type from C > seems very straightforward to me.  You can simply use #ifdef > Py_COBJECT_H to see if the cobject.h header was pulled into Python.h. > Similarly for Py_CAPSULE_H.  All you lose

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 09:20, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: >> In fact, since the deprecation in the Python 2 line happened in 2.7, >> the deprecation period of this API in practice was between July 3rd >> 2010 and February 20 2011. That is a deprecation period of somewhat >> longer than seven months.

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late"

> In fact, since the deprecation in the Python 2 line happened in 2.7, > the deprecation period of this API in practice was between July 3rd > 2010 and February 20 2011. That is a deprecation period of somewhat > longer than seven months. Nobody obviously though 2.6 was out of > practical use by n

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 6:30 PM, Lennart Regebro wrote: > On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 01:15, Stefan Behnel wrote: >> I can confirm that the Cython project was as surprised of the PyCapsule >> change in Python 3.2 as (I guess) most other users, and I would claim that >> we are a project with one of the

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 01:15, Stefan Behnel wrote: > I can confirm that the Cython project was as surprised of the PyCapsule > change in Python 3.2 as (I guess) most other users, and I would claim that > we are a project with one of the highest probabilities of being impacted by > C-API changes.

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On Mar 11, 2011, at 7:12 PM, Paul Moore wrote: > On 11 March 2011 23:24, Guido van Rossum wrote: >>> I'm interested in the task and I guess I'll follow-up with Doug Hellman. I >>> don't follow -ideas close enough to summarize it, but I'd contribute to a >>> -dev blog. >> >> Awesome! (And we don

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On 11 March 2011 23:24, Guido van Rossum wrote: >> I'm interested in the task and I guess I'll follow-up with Doug Hellman. I >> don't follow -ideas close enough to summarize it, but I'd contribute to a >> -dev blog. > > Awesome! (And we don't need to stop at one blogger. Many hands make light >

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Brian Curtin wrote: > > On Mar 11, 2011 4:52 PM, "Guido van Rossum" wrote: >> >> On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Doug Hellmann >> wrote: >> > >> > On Mar 9, 2011, at 9:50 AM, Tim Lesher wrote: >> > >> >> On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 01:15, Stefan Behnel >> >> wrote: >

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 22:56:49 +0100 Antoine Pitrou wrote: > On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:53:03 -0500 > Tres Seaver wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On 03/11/2011 03:24 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > On Wed, 09 Mar 2011 07:15:07 +0100 > > > Stefan Behnel wrote: > >

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On Mar 11, 2011 4:52 PM, "Guido van Rossum" wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote: > > > > On Mar 9, 2011, at 9:50 AM, Tim Lesher wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 01:15, Stefan Behnel wrote: > >>> Actually, why not put up a web page of "upcoming changes" somewhere,

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On Wed, 9 Mar 2011 15:40:56 -0500 Doug Hellmann wrote: > > The original request from the board was for the communications team to write > the messages, but I think it is more appropriate for the people doing the > work to talk about it. [...] > > I asked Michael to add this topic to the agenda

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:53:03 -0500 Tres Seaver wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 03/11/2011 03:24 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > On Wed, 09 Mar 2011 07:15:07 +0100 > > Stefan Behnel wrote: > >> > >> Actually, why not put up a web page of "upcoming changes" somewhere,

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Doug Hellmann wrote: > > On Mar 9, 2011, at 9:50 AM, Tim Lesher wrote: > >> On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 01:15, Stefan Behnel wrote: >>> Actually, why not put up a web page of "upcoming changes" somewhere, that >>> lists major decisions with user impact that were taken o

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03/11/2011 03:24 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > On Wed, 09 Mar 2011 07:15:07 +0100 > Stefan Behnel wrote: >> >> Actually, why not put up a web page of "upcoming changes" somewhere, that >> lists major decisions with user impact that were taken on pyt

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On Wed, 09 Mar 2011 07:15:07 +0100 Stefan Behnel wrote: > > Actually, why not put up a web page of "upcoming changes" somewhere, that > lists major decisions with user impact that were taken on python-dev? > Including a link to the relevant discussion and decision. Often enough, > decisions ar

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On 3/9/2011 9:50 AM, Tim Lesher wrote: We used to do biweekly-ish Python-Dev summaries for this reason. They were, is a sense, too detailed, complete, and voluminous. In whatever format, terser announcement of just things others really need to know - like decisions that affect them, would pro

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On 3/9/2011 4:14 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Wed, 9 Mar 2011 19:42:36 +0100 Perhaps the part of the "what's new" document which deals with porting issues and compatibility breakage would need more highlighting? That could go at the tops. Deletions in 3.3 ... Planned deletions in future ver

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On Wed, 9 Mar 2011 19:42:36 +0100 Giampaolo Rodolà wrote: > > Actually, why not put up a web page of "upcoming changes" somewhere, that > > lists major decisions with user impact that were taken on python-dev? > > I think "what's new" serves this purpose properly. > Usually, every time I commit a

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On Mar 9, 2011, at 9:50 AM, Tim Lesher wrote: > On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 01:15, Stefan Behnel wrote: >> Actually, why not put up a web page of "upcoming changes" somewhere, that >> lists major decisions with user impact that were taken on python-dev? >> Including a link to the relevant discussion

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

> Actually, why not put up a web page of "upcoming changes" somewhere, that > lists major decisions with user impact that were taken on python-dev? I think "what's new" serves this purpose properly. Usually, every time I commit a new feature, I update the what's new file as well. In fact we alread

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 1:15 AM, Stefan Behnel wrote: > "Martin v. Löwis", 08.03.2011 23:47: I think everything here is as it should be. People who really cared about forwards compatibility could have known, but factually, most people don't care enough. Those then learn for the

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 01:15, Stefan Behnel wrote: > Actually, why not put up a web page of "upcoming changes" somewhere, that > lists major decisions with user impact that were taken on python-dev? > Including a link to the relevant discussion and decision. Often enough, > decisions are taken ins

Re: [Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 1:15 AM, Stefan Behnel wrote: > A publicly visible list of those decisions would > > a) make it easier for non-core developers to follow important changes on > python-dev > > b) allow potentially impacted people to bring up their POV more quickly, > e.g. during the alpha cyc

[Python-Dev] public visibility of python-dev decisions "before it's too late" (was: PyCObject_AsVoidPtr removed from python 3.2 - is this documented?)

"Martin v. Löwis", 08.03.2011 23:47: I think everything here is as it should be. People who really cared about forwards compatibility could have known, but factually, most people don't care enough. Those then learn for the first time that some feature was deprecated after it is actually removed.