Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 572: A backward step in readability

2018-04-30 Thread Raymond Hettinger
> On Apr 30, 2018, at 9:37 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 08:09:35AM +0100, Paddy McCarthy wrote: > [...] >> A PEP that can detract from readability; *readability*, a central >> tenet of Python, should >> be rejected, (on principle!), when such objections are treated so

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 572: A backward step in readability

2018-04-30 Thread Paddy McCarthy
On 30 April 2018 at 17:37, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 08:09:35AM +0100, Paddy McCarthy wrote: > [...] > > A PEP that can detract from readability; *readability*, a central > > tenet of Python, should > > be rejected, (on principle!), when such objections are treated so > >

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 572: A backward step in readability

2018-04-30 Thread Tres Seaver
On 04/30/2018 12:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > - comprehensions? not readable, easy to abuse, hard for beginners > to comprehend; I still refer to them as "list incomprehensions" in my head, particularly for those whic expand across line breaks. Tres. --

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 572: A backward step in readability

2018-04-30 Thread Guido van Rossum
TBH I think the text of the PEP could be much improved -- for example it should use motivating examples from real code, not artificial examples to show edge cases of the semantics. At this point I don't think that more people expressing an opinion one way or another are going to make a difference.

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 572: A backward step in readability

2018-04-30 Thread Paul Moore
On 30 April 2018 at 17:37, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 08:09:35AM +0100, Paddy McCarthy wrote: > [...] >> A PEP that can detract from readability; *readability*, a central >> tenet of Python, should >> be rejected, (on principle!), when such objections are treated so >> dismi

Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 572: A backward step in readability

2018-04-30 Thread Steven D'Aprano
On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 08:09:35AM +0100, Paddy McCarthy wrote: [...] > A PEP that can detract from readability; *readability*, a central > tenet of Python, should > be rejected, (on principle!), when such objections are treated so > dismissively. Unless you have an objective measurement of reada

[Python-Dev] PEP 572: A backward step in readability

2018-04-30 Thread Paddy McCarthy
The PEP s section on Frequently raised objections includes: (https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0572/#this-could-be-used-to-create-ugly-code) > This could be used to create ugly code! > > So can anything else. This is a tool, and it is up to the programmer to use > it where > it makes sense, an