Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-06 Thread Chris Angelico
On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 6:04 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: > On 5/6/2018 10:03 AM, Chris Angelico wrote: >> If it were up to me, I would deprecate non-threaded mode immediately, > > > Given that 99% of tkinter users do not need threaded tcl, why cut some of > them off? "Non-threaded" really just means "n

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-06 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/6/2018 10:03 AM, Chris Angelico wrote: On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 6:54 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: Is it ALL of Tkinter that fails in threaded mode? No. It is non-threaded tcl that fails in threaded mode, along with tkinter's attempt to make non-thread tcl work anyway. There are at least two di

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-06 Thread Chris Angelico
On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 6:54 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: >> Is it ALL of Tkinter that fails in threaded mode? > > No. It is non-threaded tcl that fails in threaded mode, along with > tkinter's attempt to make non-thread tcl work anyway. There are at least > two different cases. > > Ivan has clarified

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-06 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/5/2018 9:45 PM, Chris Angelico wrote: On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Sun, May 06, 2018 at 11:09:21AM +1000, Chris Angelico wrote: What exactly didn't work? I don't understand. https://bugs.python.org/issue33412 I've read it and I still don't fully under

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-05 Thread Chris Angelico
On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Sun, May 06, 2018 at 11:09:21AM +1000, Chris Angelico wrote: > >> What exactly didn't work? I don't understand. > > https://bugs.python.org/issue33412 > I've read it and I still don't fully understand the problem. Is it ALL of Tkinter t

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-05 Thread Steven D'Aprano
On Sun, May 06, 2018 at 11:09:21AM +1000, Chris Angelico wrote: > What exactly didn't work? I don't understand. https://bugs.python.org/issue33412 -- Steve ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/py

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-05 Thread Chris Angelico
On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 10:22 AM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote: > Well, this _is_ a big deal. As in, "with 15+ years of experience, 5+ with > Python, I failed to produce a working GUI in a week; no-one on the Net, > regardless of experience, (including Terry) is ever sure how to do things > ri

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-05 Thread David Mertz
The below is really just making this whole situation worse. On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 8:22 PM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev < python-dev@python.org> wrote: > As I suspected. This is a classic scenario that is occasionally seen > anywhere: "everyone is underestimating a problem until a disaster strike

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-05 Thread Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev
On 04.05.2018 19:04, Guido van Rossum wrote: Thank you Steven! I assume that Brian hadn't seen my response (such crossed messages due to delivery delays are very common in this mailing list). I'd like to use your email (nearly) verbatim to start off the discussion about civility we're going t

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email (was: Drop/deprecate Tkinter?)

2018-05-05 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Sat, 5 May 2018 01:43:00 +1000 Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 06:31:03PM +, Brett Cannon wrote: > > > No one is saying people can't be upset and if you are ever upset there's > > something wrong; we're human beings after all. But those of us speaking up > > about the tone

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-04 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/4/2018 10:07 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Terry, please, to persist in attacking Ivan's past behaviour when he has not repeated it is not open, considerate or respectful. I did not do that. My first sentence was background for a *discussion* about a partial disagreement with what you said

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-04 Thread Steven D'Aprano
On Fri, May 04, 2018 at 03:21:28PM -0400, Terry Reedy wrote: > On 5/4/2018 11:43 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > >I'm not defending Ivan's initial email. His tantrum *was* annoying, > >unreasonable, and unfair to those who do care about tkinter. > > Ivan's email was a disinformation troll intended

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email (was: Drop/deprecate Tkinter?)

2018-05-04 Thread Alexander Belopolsky
On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 11:43 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 06:31:03PM +, Brett Cannon wrote: > .. > I'm not defending Ivan's initial email. His tantrum *was* annoying, > unreasonable, and unfair to those who do care about tkinter. He could > have done better. > > But *we

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email (was: Drop/deprecate Tkinter?)

2018-05-04 Thread Brett Cannon
On Fri, 4 May 2018 at 09:07 Guido van Rossum wrote: > Thank you Steven! I assume that Brian hadn't seen my response (such > crossed messages due to delivery delays are very common in this mailing > list). > > I'd like to use your email (nearly) verbatim to start off the discussion > about civilit

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-04 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/4/2018 12:04 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: Thank you Steven! I'd like to use your email (nearly) verbatim to start off the discussion about civility we're going to have at the Language Summit. I won't be there but sounds like a good idea. I hope you consider that bad content as well as ba

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-04 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/4/2018 11:43 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: I'm not defending Ivan's initial email. His tantrum *was* annoying, unreasonable, and unfair to those who do care about tkinter. Ivan's email was a disinformation troll intended to jump the attention queue of core developers. He is proud of its ap

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email (was: Drop/deprecate Tkinter?)

2018-05-04 Thread Steve Holden
On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 4:43 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 06:31:03PM +, Brett Cannon wrote: > > > No one is saying people can't be upset and if you are ever upset there's > > something wrong; we're human beings after all. But those of us speaking > up > > about the tone

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email (was: Drop/deprecate Tkinter?)

2018-05-04 Thread Steven D'Aprano
On Fri, May 04, 2018 at 09:04:20AM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote: > Thank you Steven! I assume that Brian hadn't seen my response (such crossed > messages due to delivery delays are very common in this mailing list). > > I'd like to use your email (nearly) verbatim to start off the discussion > ab

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email (was: Drop/deprecate Tkinter?)

2018-05-04 Thread Guido van Rossum
Thank you Steven! I assume that Brian hadn't seen my response (such crossed messages due to delivery delays are very common in this mailing list). I'd like to use your email (nearly) verbatim to start off the discussion about civility we're going to have at the Language Summit. On Fri, May 4, 201

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email (was: Drop/deprecate Tkinter?)

2018-05-04 Thread Steven D'Aprano
On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 06:31:03PM +, Brett Cannon wrote: > No one is saying people can't be upset and if you are ever upset there's > something wrong; we're human beings after all. But those of us speaking up > about the tone are saying that you can also wait until you're not so upset > to wr

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-04 Thread Steve Holden
Me neither, but I do want people to accept that there are norms, which should usually be observed. S Steve Holden On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > On Fri, 4 May 2018 08:23:19 +0100 > Steve Holden wrote: > > > > ​Yup. Tolerance has to have its limits, and this came clos

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-04 Thread Antoine Pitrou
On Fri, 4 May 2018 08:23:19 +0100 Steve Holden wrote: > > ​Yup. Tolerance has to have its limits, and this came close to abusive > behaviour. ​ > > ​I suspect others among us might have been guilty of similar behaviours in > the past I certainly couldn't cast the first stone), but times change a

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-04 Thread Steve Holden
On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 9:13 PM, Brett Cannon wrote: > > > On Thu, 3 May 2018 at 12:29 Guido van Rossum wrote: > >> EVENTUALLY WE'LL ALL BE SHOUTING ALL THE TIME. Sad. >> > > Yep. And that leads to burn-out. So while Ivan may have lucked out in > getting the attention of people who are helped him

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-04 Thread Paddy McCarthy
> > Whatever anyone may think of this, it worked. I help on other forums and have two practises that I work at: When asking a question I try to be polite. It may be more challenging to be ultra polite but sometimes it's worthwhile. Being told I am polite online is a much rarer accolade and can l

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-03 Thread Terry Reedy
On 5/3/2018 2:45 PM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev wrote: Let me express things right from the horse's mouth. Ditto, as the only person who responded on the tracker before you posted here and the only person other that Guido to respond on the tracker since and the only person to collect data w

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-03 Thread Brett Cannon
On Thu, 3 May 2018 at 12:29 Guido van Rossum wrote: > EVENTUALLY WE'LL ALL BE SHOUTING ALL THE TIME. Sad. > Yep. And that leads to burn-out. So while Ivan may have lucked out in getting the attention of people who are helped him (and given the wrong kind of positive reinforcement that this appro

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-03 Thread Guido van Rossum
EVENTUALLY WE'LL ALL BE SHOUTING ALL THE TIME. Sad. On Thu, May 3, 2018, 11:57 Brian Curtin wrote: > On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 2:45 PM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev < > python-dev@python.org> wrote: > >> On 03.05.2018 21:31, Brett Cannon wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, 3 May 2018 at 01:27 Paul Moore wrot

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-03 Thread Brian Curtin
On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 2:45 PM Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev < python-dev@python.org> wrote: > On 03.05.2018 21:31, Brett Cannon wrote: > > > > On Thu, 3 May 2018 at 01:27 Paul Moore wrote: > >> On 3 May 2018 at 03:26, Steven D'Aprano wrote: >> >> >> Will all due respect, it's sometimes unpredicta

Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

2018-05-03 Thread Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev
On 03.05.2018 21:31, Brett Cannon wrote: On Thu, 3 May 2018 at 01:27 Paul Moore > wrote: On 3 May 2018 at 03:26, Steven D'Aprano mailto:st...@pearwood.info>> wrote: >> Will all due respect, it's sometimes unpredictable what kind of wording >> Anglo

[Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email (was: Drop/deprecate Tkinter?)

2018-05-03 Thread Brett Cannon
On Thu, 3 May 2018 at 01:27 Paul Moore wrote: > On 3 May 2018 at 03:26, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > >> Will all due respect, it's sometimes unpredictable what kind of wording > >> Anglo-Saxons will take as an insult, as there's lot of obsequiosity > >> there that doesn't exist in other cultures.