Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 1:46 AM, Chris.Barker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Could we add a "from __future__ import something" along with a > deprecation warning? That's a Python language feature. It is not available to us. -- Robert Kern "I have come to believe that the whole world is an eni

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

Could we add a "from __future__ import something" along with a deprecation warning? This could be used for Tim's "new matrix" class, or any other API change. -Chris -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR&R(206) 526-6959 voice 7600

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 12:26:49PM -0400, Alan G Isaac wrote: > As Anne pointed out, examples are accumulating that there is > a *fundamental* problem with matrix handling of scalar > indexing. I agree with this. It is not just an > "annoyance". It keeps affecting code that tries to handle >

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Sun, 11 May 2008, Gael Varoquaux apparently wrote: > Pluging one annoyance to create another one (IMHO worse), > and in addition breaking backward compatibility seems > utterly wrong to me. I'm a little puzzled by this phrasing. As Anne pointed out, examples are accumulating that there is

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 12:53:40PM -0500, Nathan Bell wrote: > True, but scipy.sparse makes fairly limited use of matrix and I have > 386 unittests to tell me what broke. End-users might spend > considerably longer sorting out the problem, particularly if they > don't know what they're looking for

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

2008/5/10 Timothy Hochberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Anne Archibald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: >> >> 2008/5/10 Nathan Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >> > On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Anne Archibald >> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >> >> I don't expect my opinion

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 2:35 PM, Timothy Hochberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Please, let's just leave the current matrix class alone. Any change > sufficient to make matrix not terrible, will break everyone's code. Instead, > the goal should be build a new matrix class (say newmatrix) where we ca

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 1:37 PM, Anne Archibald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 2008/5/10 Nathan Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Anne Archibald > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >> I don't expect my opinion to prevail, but the point is that we do not > >> even have

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 1:21 PM, Nathan Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Would you object to raising a general Warning with a message like the > following? > > "matrix indexing of the form x[0] is ambiguous, consider the explicit > format x[0,:]" -1 I am not certain that there is universal agree

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

2008/5/10 Nathan Bell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Anne Archibald > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> I don't expect my opinion to prevail, but the point is that we do not >> even have enough consensus to agree on a recommendation to go in the >> DeprecationWarning. Alas.

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Anne Archibald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I don't expect my opinion to prevail, but the point is that we do not > even have enough consensus to agree on a recommendation to go in the > DeprecationWarning. Alas. > Would you object to raising a general Warning wi

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

2008/5/10 Jarrod Millman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 8:14 AM, Keith Goodman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> If these are backed out, will some kind of deprecation >>> warning be added for scalar indexing, as Travis suggested? >>> Robert's request seems in accord with this. >> >> S

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 8:14 AM, Keith Goodman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> If these are backed out, will some kind of deprecation >> warning be added for scalar indexing, as Travis suggested? >> Robert's request seems in accord with this. > > Shouldn't a deprecation warning explain what the futur

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 9:24 AM, Alan G Isaac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sat, 10 May 2008, Keith Goodman apparently wrote: >> Shouldn't a deprecation warning explain what the future >> behavior will be? > > I do not think so. I think the warning should say: > "use x[0,:] instead of x[0] to re

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

>> On Sat, 10 May 2008, Jarrod Millman wrote: >>> unless there are major objections, I am going to back out >>> the matrices changes in the 1.1 branch. > On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Alan G Isaac > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> If these are backed out, will some kind of deprecation >> warn

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 11:14 AM, Keith Goodman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Shouldn't a deprecation warning explain what the future behavior will > be? Is there a firm consensus on what that behavior will be? For what the opinion of an interested observer is worth: I honestly can't tell whether t

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Alan G Isaac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sat, 10 May 2008, Jarrod Millman wrote: >> unless there are major objections, I am going to back out >> the matrices changes in the 1.1 branch. > > If these are backed out, will some kind of deprecation > warning be added

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Sat, 10 May 2008, Jarrod Millman wrote: > unless there are major objections, I am going to back out > the matrices changes in the 1.1 branch. If these are backed out, will some kind of deprecation warning be added for scalar indexing, as Travis suggested? Robert's request seems in accord wit

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 2:47 AM, Robert Kern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 4:35 AM, Jarrod Millman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> However, we will be releasing 1.2 in a few months and it will be >> entirely possible to break the matrices API then if there is an >> agreement

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 4:35 AM, Jarrod Millman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > However, we will be releasing 1.2 in a few months and it will be > entirely possible to break the matrices API then if there is an > agreement that it still needs to be done. Please, let's have a firm policy of having a

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 8:36 AM, Timothy Hochberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My personal opinion is that current matrix class is pretty useless and the > change won't help much from my point of view. My preference would be to > leave the matrix class alone, design a new matrix class, with a differ

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

Hello, I have obviously decided to delay tagging 1.1.0 until we resolve this. I didn't realize that numpy matrices were used in scipy or I would have brought this up before, but whatever matrix change we make in 1.1 has to work with the scipy 0.6. Unfortunately, I can't check myself at the momen

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Fri, 9 May 2008, Nathan Bell apparently wrote: > I don't fundamentally disagree with your positions on the > deficiencies/quirks of matrices in numpy. However, it's > completely inappropriate to plug one hole while creating > others I think we have to be careful with that argument. The rela

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Charles R Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 9:56 AM, Jonathan Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Timothy Hochberg wrote: >> > +0 >> > >> > My personal opinion is that current matrix class is pretty useless and >> > the change won't

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Alan G Isaac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > That's how we got here in the first place, I think. > Trading off problems in current behavior vs. the possibility > that other code (like Nathan's) might rely on that bad behavior. > Uncomfortable either way. We'll, I th

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Fri, 9 May 2008, Charles R Harris apparently wrote: > I am against messing with the numpy code just to > accommodate a matrix class that shouldn't have inherited > from ndarray in the first place. So I am OK with backing > out the changes as long as we also leave all the bugs in > place.

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Fri, 9 May 2008, Timothy Hochberg apparently wrote: > I think the matrix class is kind of useless, In my field (economics), it has been a great way to introduce students to NumPy. I suggest that this reason alone makes it far from "useless". I also personally find it convenient for linear a

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 9:56 AM, Charles R Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Of course, if Nathan has already made the changes we will drive him crazy if > we back them out now This shouldn't be a problem, scipy.sparse should work with either Thanks for your concern though :) -- Nathan Bell

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Alan G Isaac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Since I mentioned Nathan's changes, I wish to clarify > something. I have no idea what Nathan's views are, but as > I recall them, it looked to me that his changes would be > robust to backing out. That should be true.

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Alan G Isaac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Point of information: it looks like Nathan already made the > needed fixes, and the changes made were in my opinion not at > all obscure and indeed were rather minor. (Which does not > deny they were needed.) > That's cor

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 9:56 AM, Jonathan Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Timothy Hochberg wrote: > > +0 > > > > My personal opinion is that current matrix class is pretty useless and > > the change won't help much from my point of view. My preference would > > be to leave the matrix class alon

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

Timothy Hochberg wrote: > +0 > > My personal opinion is that current matrix class is pretty useless and > the change won't help much from my point of view. My preference would > be to leave the matrix class alone, design a new matrix class, with a > different name, for 1.2 and then deprecate the

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 6:43 AM, Travis Oliphant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi all, > > I'm having trouble emailing this list from work, so I'm using a > different email address. > > After Nathan Bell's recent complaints, I'm a bit more uncomfortable with > the matrix change to scalar indexing.

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

Charles R Harris wrote: > > > On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Bruce Southey <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > wrote: > > Charles R Harris wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Travis Oliphant > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Fri, 9 May 2008, Charles R Harris apparently wrote: > if Nathan has already made the changes we will drive him > crazy if we back them out now Since I mentioned Nathan's changes, I wish to clarify something. I have no idea what Nathan's views are, but as I recall them, it looked to me that

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

2008/5/9 Anne Archibald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > How much code is broken by this, compared to (say) the amount broken > by the disappearance of numpy.core.ma? Is this our biggest single API > breakage? You shouldn't import from core -- we never advertised that API. As far as I recall, numpy.ma was

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Bruce Southey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Charles R Harris wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Travis Oliphant <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > I'm having trouble emailing this list from wo

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

Charles R Harris wrote: > > > On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Travis Oliphant <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > I'm having trouble emailing this list from work, so I'm using a > different email address. > > After Nathan Bell's recent complain

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

2008/5/9 Travis Oliphant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > After Nathan Bell's recent complaints, I'm a bit more uncomfortable with > the matrix change to scalar indexing. It does and will break code in > possibly hard-to-track down ways. Also, Nathan has been a *huge* > contributor to the Sparse matrix

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 8:00 AM, Charles R Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Travis Oliphant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'm having trouble emailing this list from work, so I'm using a >> different email address. >> >> After Nathan Bell's

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Fri, 09 May 2008, Travis Oliphant apparently wrote: > I think we need to: > 1) Add a warning to scalar access > 2) Back-out the change and fix all the places where NumPy assumes > incorrectly that the number of dimensions reduce on PySequence_GetItem. > Opinions? Point of information: it lo

Re: [Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Travis Oliphant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi all, > > I'm having trouble emailing this list from work, so I'm using a > different email address. > > After Nathan Bell's recent complaints, I'm a bit more uncomfortable with > the matrix change to scalar indexing.

[Numpy-discussion] Uncomfortable with matrix change

Hi all, I'm having trouble emailing this list from work, so I'm using a different email address. After Nathan Bell's recent complaints, I'm a bit more uncomfortable with the matrix change to scalar indexing. It does and will break code in possibly hard-to-track down ways. Also, Nathan has