tp://dev.exherbo.org/~ciaranm/resolution-fdp.png
(That's a small part of Gentoo, from a while back, with X not enabled.
It's far worse if X is on too.)
--
Ciaran McCreesh
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'll need to use an independent variable to get
this information.
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Ciaran McCreesh
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On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 16:33:13 -0400
Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> On 19/09/12 03:37 PM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:26:44 -0400 Alexandre Rostovtsev
> > wrote:
> >> Pacho Ramos has suggested making vala_sr
t
gets the actual value of a metadata variable, rather than trying to
lock down the value of globals in general.
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Ciaran McCreesh
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On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 23:24:29 +0200
Michał Górny wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 22:14:18 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 23:03:05 +0200
> > Michał Górny wrote:
> > > > No, you're not guaranteed to get the ebuild's value of IUSE, or
s for changing
the spec in a controlled manner. That's all that's relevant to this
thread. If you really want to discuss archaeology, you're welcome to
start another thread, and see if anyone cares to do the work to give
you a detailed answer.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
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or various
> points.
You're welcome to write it. You seem to have lots of free time. I'd
even be happy to point you in the direction of all the previous
discussions of this kind of thing, if you have difficulty finding them.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
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On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 00:30:25 +0200
Michał Górny wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 23:18:31 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 00:13:41 +0200
> > > If you care, then you should consider finding a good solution
> > > which will fix the code now, in
On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 08:43:11 +0200
Pacho Ramos wrote:
> El jue, 20-09-2012 a las 02:14 -0400, Alexandre Rostovtsev escribió:
> > Revised to use a separate variable for the name of the flag instead
> > of reading IUSE, as suggested by Ciaran McCreesh. As a result of
> > thi
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On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 09:13:40 -0400
Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> PMS may not need to be fixed, just the spec
PMS is the spec, and it doesn't need fixing, since it accurately
reflects the situation we're dealing with.
- --
Ciaran McCree
say can be relied
> upon, to the environment).
You'll have to be very very specific about where it will and won't
work. It definitely won't work everywhere in global scope, for example.
There's also the question of whether we effectively want to force
merging and no
On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 19:52:11 +0200
Pacho Ramos wrote:
> The problem is that I suspect that, maybe, this behavior was present
> and supported even in eapi0
It wasn't.
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Ciaran McCreesh
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lasses to use that new hypothetical behavior.
Sure it can. Portage supports what's in the spec. If you're relying
upon undefined behaviour, it's your problem when it stops working.
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Ciaran McCreesh
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ication with no benefit apart of
> address your complaints even leaving the rest of the tree
> (ebuilds/eclasses already using it) unchanged.
You are welcome to read PMS yourself if you like.
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Ciaran McCreesh
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On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 20:13:00 +0200
Pacho Ramos wrote:
> El jue, 20-09-2012 a las 18:55 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh escribió:
> > On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 19:54:43 +0200
> > Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > > That isn't necessary what could occur if the behavior changes
> > >
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On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:23:51 -0400
Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> I'm biased, so to me just auditing what portage does would be good
> enough. :D
You also need to audit what Portage did since EAPI 0 was introduced.
- --
Ciaran McCreesh
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On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 15:22:43 -0400
Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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> On 20/09/12 02:24 PM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:23:51 -0400 Ian Stakenvicius
> > wrote:
&
d in all kinds
of whitespace-related mess, another option is cat/pkg[>=2.3].
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Ciaran McCreesh
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r of it until we've been able to have
a play with an implementation.
- --
Ciaran McCreesh
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On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:17:07 +0200
hasufell wrote:
> On 09/25/2012 05:10 PM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:04:55 +0200 hasufell
> > wrote:
> >> Do we need an implementation beforehand? Afaik zac said that
enough, since this is just
the things we had to think about for SDEPEND-style suggestions... There
are likely to be things I've not thought of specific to this method
that won't crop up until someone tries to deliver a decent
implementation. This isn't a trivial feature.
--
Cia
"Need not" does not mean "should not", and "completed" is not the same
as "exists". In this case, any reasonable observer will conclude that
for this particular problem, having a reasonable reference
implementation and a bunch of ebuilds to play with befo
entation. This isn't a trivial feature.
>
> ..it really is. It piggy backs entirely on the current USE
> implementation, and only skips triggering rebuilds because the
> files-on-disk for a package don't need to change.
It's only trivial if you don't try to do anything with it...
- --
Ciaran McCreesh
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ir suggested
> > package is installed but doesn't meet version or use requirements.
>
> Er, you mean how to deal with an optional dependency which is not
> enabled at all?
I mean the *entire* thing I wrote.
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Ciaran McCreesh
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eclasses) is that it tries to do far too much all in one
place. More smaller eclasses is a good thing.
- --
Ciaran McCreesh
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ES4AoNQU0/PwOBdzBTgspOt45V/2FDxG
=fvDp
fi
>
> However, it's probably not a good idea to assume that the package
> manager defines usex prior to sourcing the eclass.
It's also not a good idea to assume that usex is a function.
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Ciaran McCreesh
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mething people explicitly go out of their
> way to protect against; meaning the aesthetics have a mental
> model cost).
It's not "go out of their way to protect against". It's "there's an
easy way of making sure everything is composable". Your
misappropriation of use flags doesn't have that.
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Ciaran McCreesh
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in any way.
You've also still not provided any kind of reference implementation,
and your "reference implementation" section is still written with a
complete lack of awareness of how dependency resolution is actually
done.
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Ciaran McCreesh
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takes to see that your syntax is bad is one tiny little
example:
dep:build? ( dep:run? ( cat/pkg ) )
There shouldn't be any need to add in a repoman check to catch that
kind of thing. The problem is entirely caused by bad syntax design.
Implementing labels is not difficult, and the extra cost is worth it to
get a good design.
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Ciaran McCreesh
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a fair hand, basically).
You already have an example in your proposal, in the form of mplayer's
X? ( ) dependencies.
But that's missing the point. Even if you pretend complicated
dependencies don't exist, labels are still by far the better proposal.
Your argument boils down to "it's more pragmatic to do a quick and dirty
implementation in Portage and thus force the technical debt onto every
single ebuild than it is to do it cleanly".
--
Ciaran McCreesh
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On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 16:56:56 -0700
Brian Harring wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 10:53:40PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > But here's the thing: when you sell something as "pragmatic", what
> > you're really saying is "it's wrong, I know it's
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 02:01:32 -0700
Brian Harring wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 01, 2012 at 08:13:49AM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > x? ( build: a run: b ) *is* nested "conflicting".
> >
> > You're still failing to understand the point of labels parsing
> > rul
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On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 13:51:01 -0400
Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> On 30/09/12 05:53 PM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Sun, 30 Sep 2012 14:42:14 -0700 Brian Harring
> > wrote:
> >>> The second is that it starts the conceptual s
#x27;m missing something, 'same difference' still fits..
Brian has DEPENDENCIES as being syntactic sugar that is "rendered" into
separate *DEPEND variables. Conceptually, a := spec would be treated as
two different, unrelated specs. If we're doing that, though, then
there&#x
ese failings so as to deliver
a compliant handling of the || ( dep:build? ( a ) dep:run? ( b ) )
case.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
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On Sun, 07 Oct 2012 19:58:04 +0200
justin wrote:
> Any suggestion how to check for a USE being IUSE in an eclass?
You can't. See the zillion previous discussions on this subject.
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Ciaran McCreesh
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p in EAPI=1 (or 2 or 3, etc) at
> the top, without any other changes. Are there any circumstances
> where the ebuild would behave differently and/or break?
In EAPIs after 1, as well as adding shiny new toys, we've removed
various deprecated things, split up phase functions, a
On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 17:45:13 +0100
"Steven J. Long" wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 02, 2012 at 06:56:14PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > A := only makes sense for a dependency that is present both at build
> > time and at runtime. Currently, the only place you should be seeing
&
nfusion is more the impression that there is such
a thing as PORTAGE_NONFATAL. You should be reading the spec, not code.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
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On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 14:24:29 -0700
"Gregory M. Turner" wrote:
> On 10/20/2012 4:05 AM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 03:52:49 -0700
> > "Gregory M. Turner" wrote:
> >> Took me a while, but I think I see why this is correct, now (
de. It's to ensure that the code you would otherwise be
copying and pasting is correct.
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Ciaran McCreesh
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On Wed, 31 Oct 2012 17:26:38 +0100
Theo Chatzimichos wrote:
> +1 and btw move the devmanual in the wiki :D
That would rather go against the original idea behind the devmanual,
which was that it was supposed to be high quality and authoritative.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
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Descript
ppy disks and monitors to drobbins upon request.
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Ciaran McCreesh
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s. A "move" is specifically for a rename, not for
merging two existing packages together.
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Ciaran McCreesh
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gt; more clear statement to avoid misunderstanding? E.g.:
> ``all category names must contain a single hyphen with a
> special exception for "virtual"''
It's not a "must". Also, putting that rule in and having the package
mangler enforce it can have unintend
think it's not important, but if Gentoo finally gets into the habit of
ongoing improvements, the tree will slowly get better rather than
worse over time.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
;:=" in DEPEND: it varies
> > depending on your "with-bdeps" setting.
> >
>
> This is why we can't have nice things.
Actually you can't have nice things because the labels proposal was
voted down for "being invented by the wrong people".
--
Ciaran McCreesh
e manager tries to use it, that is; the rebuilds aren't
> triggered unless you're using portage.
The point is to specify dependencies declaratively. A dependency
expresses a dependency, not an action. If you can't express the kind of
dependency you need, then we need either labels or another *DEPEND
variable to take care of it, not a bodge.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
too. At least with all
> currently approved EAPIs.
Please stop. PMS was not written with the kind of resources needed to
deal with people deliberately trying to find loopholes.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
be actively improving the
quality of the tree so that progress can be made, not fighting a losing
battle to stop it from getting even worse.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
e way of progress.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 20:49:15 +0100
Alexis Ballier wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 19:17:43 +
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 20:12:04 +0100
> > Alexis Ballier wrote:
> > > However, retroactively adding new rules
> >
> > Which, a
able behaviour from
developers, and we deliberately chose not to go the SHALL, MUST NOT
route because of the added cost of developing a specification that's
safe from hostile implementers.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 22:37:49 +0100
Alexis Ballier wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 20:30:40 +
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 21:22:54 +0100
> > Alexis Ballier wrote:
> > > Indeed, according to pms.git commit log, the rule was laxed
> > >
It's bad enough that we have to parse XML inside the package mangler for
optional data. Adding YAML (with all its format bugs: YAML files
created with libyaml can't be read by syck, and vice-versa) for files
that the package mangler has to read is even worse.
Plain text *is* a standard format.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
currently
exists, rather than the mythical perfect Gentoo Java team that existed
ten years ago and which will rise again soon, which is what William
meant.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
ve you implemented a prototype to
show that you can actually fix those problems?
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Mon, 29 May 2017 21:42:33 +0200
Michał Górny wrote:
> On pon, 2017-05-29 at 20:24 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Mon, 29 May 2017 17:33:13 +0200
> > Michał Górny wrote:
> > > For a long time we seem to be missing appropriate tools to handle
> > > USE f
#x27;t
necessarily a problem, because resolution isn't even in NP yet we're
still managing to spit out decent answers most of the time. Rather, the
difficulty lies in spitting out a *good* solution to the problem from
a user's perspective, and that's something that can't be done without
extremely high quality inputs.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
t obvious and shortest answer to
fixing Gnome resolution errors was to set USE=mips because that
disabled a whole load of browser dependencies...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
exponential behaviour exist, not that those instances
will occur in the application area you care about.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Tue, 30 May 2017 10:46:54 +0200
Alexis Ballier wrote:
> On Tue, 30 May 2017 09:22:45 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Tue, 30 May 2017 09:42:45 +0200
> > Alexis Ballier wrote:
> > > Oh crap, this requires to solve SAT.
> >
> > The main pr
On Wed, 31 May 2017 08:55:17 +0200
Michał Górny wrote:
> For example:
>
> foo? ( bar )
>
> would mean 'if you have USE=foo, then USE=bar is enabled as well'.
What about "if bar cannot be enabled, then turn foo off"?
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Wed, 31 May 2017 09:35:04 +0200
Michał Górny wrote:
> On śro, 2017-05-31 at 08:24 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Wed, 31 May 2017 08:55:17 +0200
> > Michał Górny wrote:
> > > For example:
> > >
> > > foo? ( bar )
> > >
> > &
On Wed, 31 May 2017 21:02:24 +0200
Michał Górny wrote:
> No, it can't. That's the whole point. The algorithm must be defined so
> that it is always predictable independently of order
So what's this mysterious algorithm then?
--
Ciaran McCreesh
t;
> - making eselect module for user to rule that.
- Have a separate anyvimishthing directory, and make both vim and
neovim look there, and only make plugins that have been tested to work
with both install to that directory.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
or things that work with three vim
> implementations?
If that ever happens, which is fairly unlikely, then revisit the
problem then, rather than adding unnecessary complexity now just in
case.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:38:01 -0400
"Walter Dnes" wrote:
> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 11:54:59PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote
> > - Have a separate anyvimishthing directory, and make both vim and
> > neovim look there, and only make plugins that have been tested to
> >
no need to do so.
Good luck figuring out how to encode grounding in SAT...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
ffectively a fork.
> This would require a multi-dimensional array of approx 7 packages
> (today) versus however many ebuilds are currently in Portage for each
> editor. Do I see any volunteers for compatibility testing for all
> current and future VI-family editors and plugins on all current and
> future ebuilds on all arches (small and large endian) and various USE
> flags?
You appear to be confusing vi and vim.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 20:10:12 +0200
Michał Górny wrote:
> I'm sure Ciaran will love to elaborate ;-).
It's doomed. Even if you get it to work, which you won't, it won't
survive ten seconds contact with the enemy.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
entire proposal is that it's still in "well I
can't think of how it could possibly go wrong" territory. We need a
formal proof that it's sound. History has shown that if something can
be abused by Gentoo developers, it will be abused...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 18:19:04 +0200
Alexis Ballier wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 17:13:57 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 18:07:00 +0200
> > Alexis Ballier wrote:
> > > > The best way to convince me is through valid examples.
> &
On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 18:30:10 +0200
Alexis Ballier wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 17:22:26 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 18:19:04 +0200
> > Alexis Ballier wrote:
> > > On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 17:13:57 +0100
> > > Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
on producing good error messages
so the user can figure the problem out, not on producing bad solutions
that will confuse things even more.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 18:55:45 +0200
Alexis Ballier wrote:
> The guarantee comes from the fact that the output is always in the
> space of all possible inputs from the user. So, if some output will
> kill a kitten, so does some input.
USE=minimal
USE=mips
USE=-ssl
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 19:30:02 +0200
Alexis Ballier wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 18:04:35 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Thu, 15 Jun 2017 18:55:45 +0200
> > Alexis Ballier wrote:
> > > The guarantee comes from the fact that the output is always in the
> &g
, this is valid.
>
> media-libs/tiff:3[abi_x86_32,jpeg,zlib,-cxx]
And this is one of many reasons "sets in profiles" isn't going to work:
we don't really know what most of this stuff means...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
ying special cases like || ( foo? ( ... ) bar? ( ... ) ) . The
original reason was that old versions of Portage would simply remove
unmet "flag? ( )" blocks internally. It was kept in EAPI 0 because
stuff in the tree used it back then.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Sat, 8 Jul 2017 16:14:09 +0200
Alexis Ballier wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Jul 2017 13:01:39 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Sat, 8 Jul 2017 13:49:56 +0200
> > Alexis Ballier wrote:
> > > On Sat, 8 Jul 2017 12:26:59 +0200
> > > Ulrich Mueller wr
se.
The sensible thing to do is ban it, and additionally ban use? ( )
inside || and ^^ (if we've not done that already...).
--
Ciaran McCreesh
Sets exist because people keep saying "let's have sets!" without
agreeing on what sets actually are or how they are to be used. Sets
remain half-baked because it turns out they don't make consistent sense
in different contexts when you give them a non-superficial amount of
thought.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Sat, 8 Jul 2017 19:58:13 -0400
"William L. Thomson Jr." wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 00:49:57 +0100
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > On Sat, 8 Jul 2017 19:39:33 -0400
> > "William L. Thomson Jr." wrote:
> > > The two ways are not the same, and
on. Which would result in users requesting yet another option
> to disable this.
Eh, that's a Portage performance problem, not a package manager
performance problem.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
; the performance hit involved and due to the purpose of the command
> itself.
Have you profiled this? It shouldn't be slow if implemented correctly.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
es are
implementation-related, not a fundamental problem.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
e devmanual? Or maybe
> the Vim project page?
One potential issue is help files: any Vim plugin that comes with
documentation needs a little script (which requires Vim to be installed)
to be run in pkg_postinst.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 07 Sep 2017 07:42:31 +0200
Michał Górny wrote:
> >+if [[ "${EAPI}" -lt 6 ]]; then
>
> EAPI is not a number. The next one we'll call gray-grizzly just to
> prove the point.
Careful, you're turning into me.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
rt of thing that could go horribly wrong... I
didn't design versionator to work with arbitrary messy stuff since the
main use is in manipulating Gentoo PV versions. Where are these other
versions coming from?
--
Ciaran McCreesh
lications". This was sufficient for the highly paid
lawyers who looked at it to recommend not redistributing Nauty as part
of the GAP computer algebra system, because computer algebra could
conceivably be used for blowing stuff up.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
wyers I've spoken to about a similar issue seemed to think it
wasn't that simple.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
manglers having to use heuristics when explicit information
could easily be provided by developers but isn't is the source of at
least 27.4% of Gentoo's problems.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
How accurate is "around"? Obviously we'd need to introduce a user
configuration option so different users could set appropriate values
for their needs.
Seriously though, all this complexity is just highlighting that dates
are a really bad way of deciding when a news item should expire, and
that if we need anything, it's more Display-If conditions.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
migrated change?
Yes, this header is backwards. It's a message to be displayed to users
who have the old version, not a message to be displayed to users who
install the new version for the first time ever and who have never used
the old version.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
you sure you don't just want to target this at people who
have the old version installed, instead?
--
Ciaran McCreesh
come up with a solution how to handle eclass-generated
> dependency changes then?
>
> I'd loathe to have to do identical revision bumps for, say, all perl-
> module.eclass consumers...
perl-cleaner is rather strong evidence that the Perl situation needs a
major change anyway...
--
Ciaran McCreesh
ading or reinstalling a package.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
h.
Why reverse engineer it? It's all documented.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
On Sun, 8 May 2016 01:25:58 -0400
Göktürk Yüksek wrote:
> Display-If-Installed: app-admin/lastpass
Every version, forever, even for new installs made next year?
--
Ciaran McCreesh
value of source code from a position of unearned authority. This
is against the code of conduct, and is bad for the community!
--
Ciaran McCreesh
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