On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 11:44 AM, William L. Thomson Jr.
wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Dec 2017 09:51:23 +0100
> "Andreas K. Huettel" wrote:
>
>> Am Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2017, 00:40:11 CET schrieb William L.
>> Thomson Jr.: [...]
>> [...]
>> [...]
>>
>> Well, it's like listening to a broken record, which
On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 7:04 AM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:22 AM, R0b0t1 wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>>
>>> And what would you do when somebody repeatedly sexually harasses other
>>> members of the community in private after being told to st
On Wed, 06 Dec 2017 09:51:23 +0100
"Andreas K. Huettel" wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2017, 00:40:11 CET schrieb William L.
> Thomson Jr.: [...]
> [...]
> [...]
>
> Well, it's like listening to a broken record, which keeps repeating
> the same snippet. At some point you stop listenin
On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:22 AM, R0b0t1 wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>
>> And what would you do when somebody repeatedly sexually harasses other
>> members of the community in private after being told to stop, and then
>> acts as if they're the victim on the public
On 12/05/2017 06:12 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 5:41 PM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
>>
>> We do not, but that presumes actual abuse has been demonstrated.
>> "spamming the mailing list", where the posts are regarding Gentoo, isn't
>> automatically abuse because some people
Am Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2017, 00:40:11 CET schrieb William L. Thomson Jr.:
> On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 00:25:46 +0100
>
> Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> > One of the primary issues recently is that you keep bringing up old
> > matters in a way that is a criticism of Gentoo overall, in various
> > chann
On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 11:28 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
> W dniu nie, 03.12.2017 o godzinie 23∶59 -0600, użytkownik R0b0t1
> napisał:
>> As noted, there is one: analyzing the actions of those who are being
>> "attacked" to see why people are bothering to do it in the first
>> place. I sincerely doubt
On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 4:16 PM, Daniel Campbell wrote:
>>
>> I think the plan to split mailing lists serves as a way to insulate
>> developers from the effects of their decisions. Anyone with an
>> incongenial tone will have their voice bit re
On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 00:25:46 +0100
Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
>
> One of the primary issues recently is that you keep bringing up old
> matters in a way that is a criticism of Gentoo overall, in various
> channels. We've heard it already, and to keep bringing it up doesn't
> add additional value
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:22:34 -0500
"William L. Thomson Jr." wrote:
>
> For the record and reading assumer's. All my actions were in public,
> basically on mailing lists starting with -nfp long ago. All action
> taken against me was in public visible on my developer bug. I have
> never communicated
On 12/06/2017 12:22 AM, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> Sorry and no more from me. I just feel given how I am portrayed,
> spoken of, action taken against, etc. I must clarify some things for the
> public record. Which even despite all my actions being in public.
> People still assume because resea
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:02:01 -0500
Rich Freeman wrote:
>
> The problem is that with current policies if somebody in Comrel/etc
> had evidence to the contrary they would not be able to refute such a
> denial. My example wasn't of wltjr specifically (at least not to my
> knowledge), but it just goes
On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 6:01 PM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> On 12/05/2017 11:41 PM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
>> On 12/05/2017 11:37 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>> Honestly, I'm not really a big fan of even on-topic posts from people
>>> who have caused a lot of harm to others in private. I'm
On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 5:41 PM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> On 12/05/2017 11:37 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> Honestly, I'm not really a big fan of even on-topic posts from people
>> who have caused a lot of harm to others in private. I'm not sure
>> which is the lesser evil but do we really want
On 12/05/2017 11:41 PM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> On 12/05/2017 11:37 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> Honestly, I'm not really a big fan of even on-topic posts from people
>> who have caused a lot of harm to others in private. I'm not sure
>> which is the lesser evil but do we really want a commun
On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 5:46 PM, William L. Thomson Jr.
wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 17:25:21 -0500
> Rich Freeman wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 5:19 PM, Kristian Fiskerstrand
>> wrote:
>> > On 12/05/2017 11:12 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> >
>> >> And what would you do when somebody repeatedly
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 17:25:21 -0500
Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 5:19 PM, Kristian Fiskerstrand
> wrote:
> > On 12/05/2017 11:12 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> >
> >> And what would you do when somebody repeatedly sexually harasses
> >> other members of the community in private after
On 12/05/2017 11:37 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> Honestly, I'm not really a big fan of even on-topic posts from people
> who have caused a lot of harm to others in private. I'm not sure
> which is the lesser evil but do we really want a community where we
> tolerate absolutely any kind of abuse of ot
On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
>
> The difference would be that you, in your first example, can demonstrate
> some actual abuse. In the latter case you're talking about differences
> of opinions of how things are run, which quickly turns into censorship.
>
I don't se
On 12/05/2017 11:25 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 5:19 PM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
>> On 12/05/2017 11:12 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 4:16 PM, Daniel Campbell wrote:
I think the plan to split mailing lists serves as a way to insulate
develo
On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 5:19 PM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> On 12/05/2017 11:12 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 4:16 PM, Daniel Campbell wrote:
>>> I think the plan to split mailing lists serves as a way to insulate
>>> developers from the effects of their decisions. Anyone w
On 12/05/2017 11:12 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 4:16 PM, Daniel Campbell wrote:
>> I think the plan to split mailing lists serves as a way to insulate
>> developers from the effects of their decisions. Anyone with an
>> incongenial tone will have their voice bit revoked and th
On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 4:16 PM, Daniel Campbell wrote:
>
> I think the plan to split mailing lists serves as a way to insulate
> developers from the effects of their decisions. Anyone with an
> incongenial tone will have their voice bit revoked and their mail will
> be dropped or rejected.
And wh
On 2017-12-03 00:18, Michał Górny wrote:
> …snip…
I understand, and sympathize with, the motivation to create another list
and restrict gentoo-dev. And, I agree with most of the points,
especially given some of the more recent events.
I still vote no.
gentoo-dev is supposed to be for open discus
On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 08:59:40AM +, Peter Stuge wrote:
> Daniel Campbell wrote:
> > On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 12:18:04AM +0100, Michał Górny wrote:
> > > I'd like to establish the following changes to the mailing lists:
> > >
> > > 1. Posting to gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-project@ mailing lists wi
Am Montag, 4. Dezember 2017, 18:02:21 CET schrieb Michał Górny:
> W dniu pon, 04.12.2017 o godzinie 14∶18 +0100, użytkownik Dirkjan
>
> Ochtman napisał:
> > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 10:43 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> [...]
>
> I'm all for it, as long as someone is actually going to do the necessary
>
Daniel Campbell wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 12:18:04AM +0100, Michał Górny wrote:
> > I'd like to establish the following changes to the mailing lists:
> >
> > 1. Posting to gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-project@ mailing lists will be
> > initially restricted to active Gentoo developers.
>
> I don'
On 12/02/2017 06:18 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> II. This practically assumes that every new mailing list subscriber will
> be able to recognize the problem. Otherwise, new people will repeatedly
> be lured into discussing with them.
>
> III. In the end, it puts Gentoo in a bad position. Firstly, bec
On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 21:29:26 +0100
Vincent-Xavier JUMEL wrote:
>
> Please do rembember that you can't solve all earth problems, not even
> all Gentoo problems :)
Technology is no means to resolve social issues. Our use of technology
is bringing about entirely new unique social issues. Technology
On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 12:18:04AM +0100, Michał Górny wrote:
> Hello, everyone.
>
> This is something that's been talked about privately a lot lately but it
> seems that nobody went forward to put things into motion. SO here's
> a proposal that aims to improve the condition of our mailing lists
>
Le 2017-12-03 22:31, Michał Górny a écrit :
Multiple people have tried, and as explained in the long rationale we
haven't had any success. If you have a constructive ideas how to solve
the problem otherwise, we're open to hear them. That's the whole
purpose
of this thread.
Once or twice in 10
On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 13:34:49 -0500
kuzetsa wrote:
> On 12/04/2017 01:11 PM, Christopher Head wrote:
> > On December 3, 2017 1:35:23 PM PST, "Michał Górny"
> > wrote:
> >> The best way to reach specific Gentoo developers is through
> >> Bugzilla. This gives the best chance for focused discussion
On 12/04/2017 01:11 PM, Christopher Head wrote:
> On December 3, 2017 1:35:23 PM PST, "Michał Górny" wrote:
>> The best way to reach specific Gentoo developers is through Bugzilla.
>> This gives the best chance for focused discussion on the specific issue
>> without unnecessary distraction for oth
On December 3, 2017 1:35:23 PM PST, "Michał Górny" wrote:
>
>The best way to reach specific Gentoo developers is through Bugzilla.
>This gives the best chance for focused discussion on the specific issue
>without unnecessary distraction for other developers who are not
>interested in the specific
W dniu nie, 03.12.2017 o godzinie 23∶59 -0600, użytkownik R0b0t1
napisał:
> As noted, there is one: analyzing the actions of those who are being
> "attacked" to see why people are bothering to do it in the first
> place. I sincerely doubt the offensive parties are doing what they are
> doing withou
W dniu pon, 04.12.2017 o godzinie 14∶18 +0100, użytkownik Dirkjan
Ochtman napisał:
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 10:43 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
>
> > > On the face of it, I like this proposal. On the other hand, wouldn't it
> >
> > be
> > > better if we just had more active list moderators? That is, m
On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 10:43 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> > On the face of it, I like this proposal. On the other hand, wouldn't it
> be
> > better if we just had more active list moderators? That is, moderators
> who
> > move problematic user's posts to moderated by default, and then withhold
> > t
On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 8:56 PM, kuzetsa wrote:
>
> Yes please. I don't want to see gentoo end because of ... rudeness.
>
Be careful, it is easy to disguise rudeness as tact.
On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> W dniu sob, 02.12.2017 o godzinie 19∶33 -0600, użytkownik R0b0t1
> napisał:
>> Hello,
>>
>> In every mailing list conversation, there are at least three people:
>> the two conversing, and the future reader. I point this out as I think
>> it imp
On 12/03/2017 08:19 PM, Peter Stuge wrote:
> this 18 min talk by Donnie Berkholz from 2012, about Gentoo actually:
Someone in private linked that video to me today. Yeah :(
> Do not tolerate bad behavior by anyone!
--snip--
> It is important to take action which clearly rejects
> unacceptable b
Hi Michał,
Michał Górny wrote:
> major problems with some of the posters for more than a year.
Please believe me when I say that I know what this feels like.
I want to applaud and thank everyone who has been tackling/discussing
this issue in private, and I especially want to applaud taking actio
On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> W dniu nie, 03.12.2017 o godzinie 13∶52 -0500, użytkownik Alec Warner
> napisał:
> > On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 6:18 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> >
> > > Hello, everyone.
> > >
> > > This is something that's been talked about privately a lot lately
More than zero posts on this thread are consistent with this point:
On 12/02/2017 06:18 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> 3. Support requests. Some of our 'expert users' have been abusing
> the mailing lists to request support (because it's easier to ask
> everyone than go through proper channels) and/or
On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 11:33:11PM +0100, Gerion Entrup wrote:
I'm a long term Gentoo user, but have read this list a few month only, so
correct me, if I'm wrong. I've seen the main usage of this list in three
aspects:
1. Review and discussion of new (technical) features (eclasses, EAPI, package
Am Sonntag, 3. Dezember 2017, 22:43:19 CET schrieb Michał Górny:
> W dniu nie, 03.12.2017 o godzinie 21∶30 +0100, użytkownik Dirkjan
> Ochtman napisał:
> > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
> >
> > > 1. Posting to gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-project@ mailing lists will be
> > > init
W dniu sob, 02.12.2017 o godzinie 19∶33 -0600, użytkownik R0b0t1
napisał:
> Hello,
>
> In every mailing list conversation, there are at least three people:
> the two conversing, and the future reader. I point this out as I think
> it important that everyone realize that not all posts are written f
W dniu nie, 03.12.2017 o godzinie 21∶30 +0100, użytkownik Dirkjan
Ochtman napisał:
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
>
> > 1. Posting to gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-project@ mailing lists will be
> > initially restricted to active Gentoo developers.
> >
> > 1a. Subscription (read
W dniu nie, 03.12.2017 o godzinie 20∶19 +0100, użytkownik Róbert
Čerňanský napisał:
> On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 00:18:04 +0100
> Michał Górny wrote:
>
> > 1. Posting to gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-project@ mailing lists will be
> > initially restricted to active Gentoo developers.
> >
> > 1a. Subscription
W dniu nie, 03.12.2017 o godzinie 19∶34 +0100, użytkownik Vincent-Xavier
JUMEL napisał:
> Hello there,
>
> Le 03 décembre à 00:18 Michał Górny a écrit
> > Hello, everyone.
> >
> > This is something that's been talked about privately a lot lately but it
> > seems that nobody went forward to put t
On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 09:30:36PM +0100, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
>
> > 1. Posting to gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-project@ mailing lists will be
> > initially restricted to active Gentoo developers.
> >
> > 1a. Subscription (reading) and archives w
W dniu nie, 03.12.2017 o godzinie 13∶52 -0500, użytkownik Alec Warner
napisał:
> On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 6:18 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
>
> > Hello, everyone.
> >
> > This is something that's been talked about privately a lot lately but it
> > seems that nobody went forward to put things into motio
"suspicious of" to strong a word - "wary of" !
On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 7:16 AM, Damo Brisbane wrote:
> As a relative newbie I wonder about the format generally of the lists,
> however "unbroken", I would be concerned about a dated look. Also, IMO
> anything requiring "manual restructuring" - vers
As a relative newbie I wonder about the format generally of the lists,
however "unbroken", I would be concerned about a dated look. Also, IMO
anything requiring "manual restructuring" - verses automation - I am a
little suspicious of. If dumb stuff is coming through, why cant the good
stuff be auto
On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
> 1. Posting to gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-project@ mailing lists will be
> initially restricted to active Gentoo developers.
>
> 1a. Subscription (reading) and archives will still be open.
>
> 1b. Active Gentoo contributors will be able to obtain
On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 00:18:04 +0100
Michał Górny wrote:
> 1. Posting to gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-project@ mailing lists will be
> initially restricted to active Gentoo developers.
>
> 1a. Subscription (reading) and archives will still be open.
>
> 1b. Active Gentoo contributors will be able to obt
On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 6:18 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> Hello, everyone.
>
> This is something that's been talked about privately a lot lately but it
> seems that nobody went forward to put things into motion. SO here's
> a proposal that aims to improve the condition of our mailing lists
> and solv
Hello there,
Le 03 décembre à 00:18 Michał Górny a écrit
> Hello, everyone.
>
> This is something that's been talked about privately a lot lately but it
> seems that nobody went forward to put things into motion. SO here's
> a proposal that aims to improve the condition of our mailing lists
> and
1 / 1b seems reasonable for mitigating signal/noise issues.
(previously unaware non-dev subscribers //currently// could post)
On 12/02/2017 06:18 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
> ...establish the following changes to the mailing lists:
>
> 1. Posting to gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-project@ mailing lists wil
Hello,
In every mailing list conversation, there are at least three people:
the two conversing, and the future reader. I point this out as I think
it important that everyone realize that not all posts are written for
those immediately participating in the conversation.
Some time ago I was offered
Hello, everyone.
This is something that's been talked about privately a lot lately but it
seems that nobody went forward to put things into motion. SO here's
a proposal that aims to improve the condition of our mailing lists
and solve some of the problems they are facing today.
Problems
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