Hey Ross,
-Original Message-
From: Ross Gardler
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org"
Date: Thursday, April 4, 2013 6:22 AM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org"
Subject: Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters:
majority vote vs consensus)
&g
Sent from a mobile device, please excuse mistakes and brevity
On 4 Apr 2013 15:17, "Greg Stein" wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:22 AM, Ross Gardler
wrote:
> > On 4 April 2013 09:06, Greg Stein wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Ross Gardler
> >> wrote:
> >> > On 31 March 2013
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
> ...If Mentors fall away after "phase 1" ends, it's less of a problem.
> Replacing
> Mentors is less consequential once the code base has reached the "known good
> state" of having made it through the release process
Agreed, though it'
Benson writes:
>> We ask them to make a public statement of commitment that for some
>> period of time (six months) they commit to thinking of themselves _as
>> a PMC_, not just as some sort of diffuse advisors or coaches...
+1 to the change of mentality.
Bertrand replies:
> I like that - I'd s
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:22 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> On 4 April 2013 09:06, Greg Stein wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Ross Gardler
>> wrote:
>> > On 31 March 2013 17:08, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) <
>> > chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Why is it so hard to see that
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 7:42 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
> As I see it, the incubator as we have it is a mechanism for coping
> with the lack of mentor commitment. As Ross often writes, it's easy to
> say that Mentors *should* make this commitment, but mentors are
> volunteers, and things happen. U
On 4 April 2013 08:46, Greg Stein wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:26 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:
> >
> > On Apr 3, 2013, at 1:20 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 11:18 PM, Benson Margulies <
> bimargul...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> ...Chris proposes that this
> >>> commit
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:08 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> Having said that, here's an idea that builds on your proposal. There is
> already the opportunity to name the board as the sponsoring organisation.
> Why not say "where the board is willing to sponsor the project it can go
> straight to TLP" (
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Upayavira wrote:
> Just a thought.
>
> Chris' solution says 'make mentors the initial PMC'. They vote in other
> project team members as appropriate to be peers. This creates a positive
> egalitarian setup which mirrors that of a PMC, which is a good thing.
>
>
The
On 4 April 2013 09:06, Greg Stein wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Ross Gardler
> wrote:
> > On 31 March 2013 17:08, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) <
> > chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >
> >> Why is it so hard to see that the board is already watching those 22
> >> nascent projects i
Hi,
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 1:42 PM, Benson Margulies wrote:
> ...How about the following more incremental experiment: we do what
> Upayavira says: we set a higher bar for mentors at podling start time.
> We ask them to make a public statement of commitment that for some
> period of time (six mont
As I see it, the incubator as we have it is a mechanism for coping
with the lack of mentor commitment. As Ross often writes, it's easy to
say that Mentors *should* make this commitment, but mentors are
volunteers, and things happen. Upayavira wonders if Mentor 'harvest
glory' and then wander away.
Just a thought.
Chris' solution says 'make mentors the initial PMC'. They vote in other
project team members as appropriate to be peers. This creates a positive
egalitarian setup which mirrors that of a PMC, which is a good thing.
Much of the problem in the incubator seems to me to be mentor
ina
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Ross Gardler
wrote:
> On 31 March 2013 17:08, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) <
> chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>> Why is it so hard to see that the board is already watching those 22
>> nascent projects in the same manner they watch the 137 TLPs?
>
> Because th
On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Benson Margulies wrote:
> Ant is reflecting a real dilemma here. At Apache, we try to be
> egalitarian, and we try to work by consensus. The natural conclusion
> is that the many people needed to vote on releases are also part of
> the decision-making body for polic
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:26 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:
>
> On Apr 3, 2013, at 1:20 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 11:18 PM, Benson Margulies
>> wrote:
>>> ...Chris proposes that this
>>> committee recommend its own demise to the board, to be replaced, in
>>> large part, b
On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> On 3 April 2013 14:41, ant elder wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Noah Slater wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for the clarification, Ant. Is the documentation ignored?
> > Whenever I
> > > look through it, it seems like the problem is tha
On Apr 3, 2013, at 1:20 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 11:18 PM, Benson Margulies
> wrote:
>> ...Chris proposes that this
>> committee recommend its own demise to the board, to be replaced, in
>> large part, by the board itself. Every board member who has been heard
>>
On 3 April 2013 14:41, ant elder wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Noah Slater wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the clarification, Ant. Is the documentation ignored?
> Whenever I
> > look through it, it seems like the problem is that it is incomplete and
> > confusing. It's hardly a wonder people
On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Noah Slater wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification, Ant. Is the documentation ignored? Whenever I
> look through it, it seems like the problem is that it is incomplete and
> confusing. It's hardly a wonder people disagree. ;) (This is just a bit of
> rhetoric. I har
Thanks for the clarification, Ant. Is the documentation ignored? Whenever I
look through it, it seems like the problem is that it is incomplete and
confusing. It's hardly a wonder people disagree. ;) (This is just a bit of
rhetoric. I hardly mean to imply the documentation is responsible for the
wh
On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 5:26 PM, Noah Slater wrote:
> As far as I understand your comment, Ant, you mean to say that he problem
> is that there is too much variation in opinion and approach. (Primarily, I
> understand, in relation to releases.)
>
>
Hi Noah, i suggested that one of the problems was
On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 11:18 PM, Benson Margulies wrote:
> ...Chris proposes that this
> committee recommend its own demise to the board, to be replaced, in
> large part, by the board itself. Every board member who has been heard
> from so far has been less than enthusiastic...
That's my case, an
uot;general@incubator.apache.org"
> Date: Monday, April 1, 2013 7:00 AM
> To: general-incubator
> Subject: Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters:
> majority vote vs consensus)
>
> >On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 5:30 AM, Mattmann, Chris A
On 2 April 2013 22:18, Benson Margulies wrote:
> Ross' proposal sacrifices some egalitarianism
> to achieve better scaling of both decision-making and supervision.
>
It is not my intention to sacrifice some egalitarianism. My intention is to
allow those who have signed up to mentor projects to g
9 USA
++
-Original Message-
From: Benson Margulies
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org"
Date: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 2:18 PM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org"
Subject: Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters:
majority vo
Ant is reflecting a real dilemma here. At Apache, we try to be
egalitarian, and we try to work by consensus. The natural conclusion
is that the many people needed to vote on releases are also part of
the decision-making body for policy that controls those releases. The
dilemma is that consensus doe
As far as I understand your comment, Ant, you mean to say that he problem
is that there is too much variation in opinion and approach. (Primarily, I
understand, in relation to releases.)
This doesn't seem related to the size of the PMC, to me. We're always going
to need a large pool of people with
Hi Upayavira,
-Original Message-
From: Upayavira
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org"
Date: Tuesday, April 2, 2013 2:17 AM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org"
Subject: Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters:
majority vote vs consensus)
&
On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Upayavira wrote:
> Chris,
>
> What I was trying to do with this particular thread is to identify the
> problems the incubator has before deciding on solutions. If we can get a
> common agreement on that, specific solutions will be much easier for us
> all to accep
ff, thanks for reading my proposal!
>
> Specific comments below:
>
> -Original Message-
>
> From: Niall Pemberton
> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org"
> Date: Monday, April 1, 2013 7:00 AM
> To: general-incubator
> Subject: Re: Incubator struct
Hi Niall,
First off, thanks for reading my proposal!
Specific comments below:
-Original Message-
From: Niall Pemberton
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org"
Date: Monday, April 1, 2013 7:00 AM
To: general-incubator
Subject: Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote o
: "general@incubator.apache.org"
> Subject: Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters:
> majority vote vs consensus)
>
> >On 31 March 2013 17:08, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) <
> >chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >
> >> Why is
, "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <
chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> Hi Ross,
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Ross Gardler
> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org"
> Date: Sunday, March 31, 2013 5:20 PM
> To: "general@incub
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Christian Grobmeier
wrote:
> I have heard a few people say they "just want to mentor, without the rules
> discussion crap" (see ml). Thats perfectly OK. But what do we need them on
> the IPMC?
One of the chief responsibilities for a Mentor is performing oversigh
Hi Ross,
-Original Message-
From: Ross Gardler
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org"
Date: Sunday, March 31, 2013 5:20 PM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org"
Subject: Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters:
majority vote vs consensus)
>
On 31 March 2013 17:08, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) <
chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> Why is it so hard to see that the board is already watching those 22
> nascent projects in the same manner they watch the 137 TLPs?
Because they are not watching with the same manner. They are delegating a
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:12 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 3:13 AM, Upayavira wrote:
> The Incubator has two acute, serious problems.
>
> 1. First releases are too hard.
No surprise. This is incredible hard to read:
http://incubator.apache.org/guides/releasemanagement.htm
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013, at 07:12 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 3:13 AM, Upayavira wrote:
> > We need one set who are 'incubator people' and another who are 'mentors'.
>
> Disenfranchising mentors and hoarding power within a small circle of IPMC
> aristocrats is both unworka
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 3:13 AM, Upayavira wrote:
> We need one set who are 'incubator people' and another who are 'mentors'.
Disenfranchising mentors and hoarding power within a small circle of IPMC
aristocrats is both unworkable and hypocritical.
* It is unworkable because the people who wat
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) <
chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> ...Why is it so hard to see that the board is already watching those 22
> nascent projects in the same manner they watch the 137 TLPs?...
It's not.
Well, maybe it is, but up to a point. The good th
Hi Benson,
-Original Message-
From: Benson Margulies
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org"
Date: Sunday, March 31, 2013 8:02 AM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org"
Subject: Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters:
majority vote vs consensus)
&
ly
> life of communities at the ASF. These are, to my mind, the criteria that
> we should be using to evaluate any suggestions as to how the incubator
> should be structured. If it doesn't meet these, it won't float.
I think there's something missing here. The incuba
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013, at 01:56 AM, Chris Douglas wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 4:30 PM, Benson Margulies
> wrote:
> > Your position is that the IPMC fails to supervise. The consensus of the
> > IPMC is that this is not true. Otherwise, someone would be reading the
> > monthly report and objecti
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