Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

Sorry I'm late back to the party boys and girls. Trivial as it may be, it's really just communication that's the only issue here, and I'm glad this has prompted a review. We all mean well and we're eager to help. The solutions Cal, Russ, Luke and co have discussed sound great. BTW- there are

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On 16/05/13 13:29, Russell Keith-Magee wrote: > Patching Trac sounds like a really good idea to me. While I completely > appreciate the intent of these wiki messages, the way those messages are > "deployed" at the present strikes me as something that could easily be > interpreted as rude. I'd like

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

I was going to mention this before, but wasn't sure how to word it. Russell has hit the spot though, giving the user a more personal experience, not just automated (or manual) copy-pasta. Cal On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Russell Keith-Magee < russ...@keith-magee.com> wrote: > > On Thu, May

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Luke Plant wrote: > On 15/05/13 19:36, ptone wrote: > > > I wonder if a slightly more concise version of this should be added to > > the triaging docs instead of a wiki page (fine place to draft it though). > > > > > https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On 15/05/13 19:36, ptone wrote: > I wonder if a slightly more concise version of this should be added to > the triaging docs instead of a wiki page (fine place to draft it though). > > https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/contributing/triaging-tickets/#closing-tickets > > I feel that

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

The fact that one of the core founders of Django has responded to say "Consider it done", is probably about as official as it can get. I have gone ahead and written up a section explaining how the 5-for-1 system works, any amendments or additions would be welcomed. https://code.djangoproject.com/

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 5:41 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] wrote: > * Make the 5-for-1 (or 10-for-1) system official, not many people seem to > realise this exists. This will give incentive to core devs to spend a bit > longer on a ticket, maybe even throwing in a pleasentry or two (optio

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

As suggested to me (privately) by Tom Evans, I've started trying to keep an eye on tickets that bounce back and forth between open and wontfix. If a ticket "bounces" a few times it's probably a sign that there's something going on, and we may want to proactively start a mailing list thread rather t

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 3:20:41 AM UTC-7, Luke Plant wrote: > > Hi Joe, > > > On 14/05/13 00:55, Joe Tennies wrote: > > As a fellow lurker (sorry I've been using Flask more recently), I think > > this could simply be fixed via a form response. Here's a simple example: > > > > This bug is

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On 15 mai 2013, at 12:20, Luke Plant wrote: > So I've gone ahead and created a wiki page, which can be longer and more > friendly, and require a shorter response on the actual ticket, something > like this: > > Closing as WONTFIX because ... > > If you want to persuade us otherwise, please b

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On Wednesday 15 May 2013, Luke Plant wrote: > > So I've gone ahead and created a wiki page, which can be longer and more > friendly, and require a shorter response on the actual ticket, something > like this: > > Closing as WONTFIX because ... > > If you want to persuade us otherwise, please

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

Hi Joe, On 14/05/13 00:55, Joe Tennies wrote: > As a fellow lurker (sorry I've been using Flask more recently), I think > this could simply be fixed via a form response. Here's a simple example: > > This bug is being marked as "WONTFIX" because > > Please realize that every API/feature added t

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

Hello all, I just spent around 90 minutes reading through everyones comments (word for word), and writing up a reply offering my two cents. First off - a few years back someone introduced a 5-for-1 system where if you triaged five other tickets, you could request for a core dev to give detailed a

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

As an outsider with very little data (so you can ignore this if you strongly disagree), I sort of agree with the notion that "WONTFIX" could be sending a different signal that it is being used for. WONTFIX to me would mean, "We acknowledge that this is an annoyance for some people, but we're no

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On Mon, May 13, 2013, Łukasz Rekucki wrote: >> The status WONTFIX sounds awfully rude to me. It's like saying "That's a >> pony and you can't have one, ever." It implies a terminal finality which >> actually isn't meant in some cases, because it is possible (as we've seen) >> and even sometimes r

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

hi all: Long time lurker. Would like to say that I have benefited greatly from the expertise on the group, and to extend my thanks to all the developers who have contributed with such undying enthusiasm to Django and the simple users and noobies on this list and the users group. Having been in

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On May 13, 2013, at 3:21 PM, Peter wrote: > I have a thought on an action we could take out of this that might be > constructive. > > Would it be possible to customise trak at all to make the workflow clearer? > > I'm thinking if someone tries to open a ticket that was closed by a committer

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Tom Evans wrote: > I don't think anyone is asking you to do this. This ticket in question > wasn't lacking bandwidth from committers, it was visited many times by > committers, who each time summarily dismissed the ticket - "We're not > doing this because x years a

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 7:55 PM, Yo-Yo Ma wrote: > How about allowing comments only from the patch author and committers? >> > > The problem I see with this is that original bug reporters, aside from the > aforementioned groups, are usually the ones most engaged in these comments, > and eliminati

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

As a fellow lurker (sorry I've been using Flask more recently), I think this could simply be fixed via a form response. Here's a simple example: This bug is being marked as "WONTFIX" because Please realize that every API/feature added to Django needs to be maintained across several versions. The

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

I have a thought on an action we could take out of this that might be constructive. Would it be possible to customise trak at all to make the workflow clearer? I'm thinking if someone tries to open a ticket that was closed by a committer then they should get an intermediate page pointing them

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On 05/13/2013 01:16 PM, Anders Steinlein wrote: On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 2:06 AM, Russell Keith-Magee wrote: > > > Looking for a positive outcome here -- my question to the community, and especially those that feel that we've been unresponsive here: how do we improve the situation? > >

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On 05/13/2013 12:11 PM, Luke Sneeringer wrote: > On May 13, 2013, at 10:06 AM, AK wrote: > >> WONTFIX does sound rude to me, as well. Perhaps 'onholdindefinite' can >> be used instead, the effective meaning is the same, just the term itself >> is more polite. It seems that nobody looking at it

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On 13 mai 2013, at 21:15, Chris Wilson wrote: > I think it *IS* different to the standard "won't fix". The standard one > implies "won't fix EVER" to me, whereas I think the way Django uses this > status is "won't fix until someone persuades on the mailing list." Which > could be expressed bet

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

There is a fundamental problem here, albeit one that is rooted in simple misunderstanding. The burden of proof is on the originator of an idea (i.e., the ticket reporter). Arguments can be made against the idea in the ticket. Rebuttal is sent elsewhere. Regardless of the intention, this automat

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On Mon, 13 May 2013, Kirby, Chaim [BSD] - PED wrote: WONTFIX has a long history in software development. It also does (correctly) state intentionality that 'onholdindefinite' lacks. The intention of WONTFIX is "yes, this is possibly valid, but in the state this ticket is written it is being cl

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

Hi Luke, On Mon, 13 May 2013, Luke Sneeringer wrote: On May 13, 2013, at 10:06 AM, AK wrote: WONTFIX does sound rude to me, as well. Perhaps 'onholdindefinite' can be used instead, the effective meaning is the same, just the term itself is more polite. It seems that nobody looking at it woul

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

Hi Tom, On Monday 13 May 2013, Tom Evans wrote: > > You're not the only person who has time constraints, each of has a > choice of what we work on in our spare time. When I read these sorts > of tickets, perfectly valid feature requests knocked down for > precisely no reason, why should I waste m

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

> > How about allowing comments only from the patch author and committers? > The problem I see with this is that original bug reporters, aside from the aforementioned groups, are usually the ones most engaged in these comments, and eliminating them from the process will only serve to further di

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 2:06 AM, Russell Keith-Magee < russ...@keith-magee.com> wrote: > > Looking for a positive outcome here -- my question to the community, and > especially those that feel that we've been unresponsive here: how do we > improve the situation? > I've been lurking on this thread

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 4:10 PM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote: > Hi Tom -- > > It really sucks that when I say "if you have feedback please send it > over here", you hear "I'm not listening". > > I'm sorry, but I don't have the mental bandwidth to follow 20,000 > individual tickets. It's impossible. I

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

I think it's better to follow the convention used by almost every other bug tracker and stick with WONTFIX. Changing the name will be confusing. I think the best route forward is to not take bug status wording as a personal offense and be happy that those that set the status almost always give an e

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On 05/13/2013 11:06 AM, AK wrote: On 05/13/2013 11:23 AM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote: > On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:12 AM, Chris Wilson > wrote: >> The status WONTFIX sounds awfully rude to me. > > I've thought so, too, but every time I've tried to come up with an > alternat

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On May 13, 2013, at 10:06 AM, AK wrote: > WONTFIX does sound rude to me, as well. Perhaps 'onholdindefinite' can > be used instead, the effective meaning is the same, just the term itself > is more polite. It seems that nobody looking at it would think "I'll > just wait for a while and surely it

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On 05/13/2013 11:23 AM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:12 AM, Chris Wilson wrote: >> The status WONTFIX sounds awfully rude to me. > > I've thought so, too, but every time I've tried to come up with an > alternate name I've failed. Any suggestions? WONTFIX does sound rude

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:12 AM, Chris Wilson wrote: > The status WONTFIX sounds awfully rude to me. I've thought so, too, but every time I've tried to come up with an alternate name I've failed. Any suggestions? FWIW, "won't fix" has a long history as a term of art in bug tracking; it refers to

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

Hi Tom -- It really sucks that when I say "if you have feedback please send it over here", you hear "I'm not listening". I'm sorry, but I don't have the mental bandwidth to follow 20,000 individual tickets. It's impossible. I just fucking can't do it. Believe me, I've tried, and failed, many time

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On 13 May 2013 11:12, Chris Wilson wrote: > Hi all, > > > On Mon, 13 May 2013, Russell Keith-Magee wrote: > > This isn't political equivocating. Its a genuine call to the community to >> tell us how we can make things better. >> > > If I may make a suggestion to be considered by the community: >

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On May 13, 2013, at 5:12 AM, Chris Wilson wrote: > Hi all, > > On Mon, 13 May 2013, Russell Keith-Magee wrote: > >> This isn't political equivocating. Its a genuine call to the community to >> tell us how we can make things better. > > If I may make a suggestion to be considered by the commu

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

Hi all, On Mon, 13 May 2013, Russell Keith-Magee wrote: This isn't political equivocating. Its a genuine call to the community to tell us how we can make things better. If I may make a suggestion to be considered by the community: The status WONTFIX sounds awfully rude to me. It's like sayin

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

Hi, On Monday 13 May 2013, Tom Evans wrote: > > Perhaps this wasn't clear, that was a member of your community trying > to make it happen. There have been several attempts over the past 5 > years by people trying to make it happen. Each time someone has tried > to make it happen, after the initia

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 3:51 AM, Russell Keith-Magee wrote: > My apologies if I wasn't clear - that wasn't what I was saying at all. What > I meant is that we can't institute a process like "Every core developer must > spend 4 hours per week triaging tickets or they will lose their core > develope

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On 13 mai 2013, at 04:51, Russell Keith-Magee wrote: > The core team has implemented a process that we think works. It has changed > over time, and is something that we feel is practical to implement, and > achieves the goals we're aiming to achieve. Not only do we think it works, but we have

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 2:03 AM, Jason Reethisma wrote: > @Russell > > "can't compel anyone to do anything"... you can compel people to NOT do > something, such as, "don't close a ticket as won't-fix without giving a > detailed explanation of why it should be closed". > > Saying that people cannot

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On Sun, 2013-05-12 at 11:03 -0700, Jason Reethisma wrote: > @Russell > > "can't compel anyone to do anything"... you can compel people to NOT do > something, such as, "don't close a ticket as won't-fix without giving a > detailed explanation of why it should be closed". > > Saying that people

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

@Russell "can't compel anyone to do anything"... you can compel people to NOT do something, such as, "don't close a ticket as won't-fix without giving a detailed explanation of why it should be closed". Saying that people cannot be compelled is an excuse to not take action. Ignoring the 3 out

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Wim Feijen wrote: > Hi Simon, Luke and Aymeric, > > Simon, first of all, thanks for your feedback. > > Core developers, I think Simons comment is a thing we should take > seriously. A ticket was closed and people didn't understand the process and > re-opened it. I

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

Hi Simon, Luke and Aymeric, Simon, first of all, thanks for your feedback. Core developers, I think Simons comment is a thing we should take seriously. A ticket was closed and people didn't understand the process and re-opened it. I believe we could have explained more clearly: 1. our decision

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 11:45 PM, Simon wrote: > Hi. > > I'm a newcomer to both Python and Django and just wanted to share my > experience trying to solve a couple of problems. > > When I started coding in Python a month ago, Django was sufficiently > common in Google searches that it was my firs

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

Hi Simon, > I feel that the general attitude expressed in some of the tickets is > poor. The one which prompted this post > is https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/901. I think comment 20 > is a good > demonstration of my point. A couple of u

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

Andres, amen to most of what you said. Coming to Django from a different place (Scala, Racket), I keep an eye for widely-used good things to come from those communities too. I do like that a Django project found me for work. I just wish I knew more Django! --Geoff On May 10, 2013, at 12:44

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On 10 mai 2013, at 19:00, Simon wrote: > While I'm sure it's not the real reason, sending people to the mailing lists > feels like a way of brushing disagreement under the carpet. If you read our contributing guide, you'll understand that it's the exact opposite. If I wanted to drown an issue

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

I really don't know how you think you'll be getting a different response in other frameworks, because the core developers' attitude on this is correct. There are over 2 tickets in the bug tracker for a project used by tens of thousands of people. Code has to pass style guidelines, regression t

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On May 10, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Simon wrote: > Hi, > > When I started using Python a couple of months ago, a quick Google for > frameworks turned up a lot of results for Django so I decided to give it a > spin. > > I'd like to give some feedback on my experience to date. There are a lot of > f

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

Apologies Daniele, I hadn't realised that had actually posted before I finished editing. I've now posted the final verison On Friday, May 10, 2013 5:57:43 PM UTC+1, Daniele Procida wrote: > > On Fri, May 10, 2013, Simon > wrote: > > >Of course, once the ticket has been closed, the only way to ap

Re: Perception of attitude in tickets

On Fri, May 10, 2013, Simon wrote: >Of course, once the ticket has been closed, the only way to appeal is >through the mailing lists. To myself as a newcomer, that just feels like a >way of making further dissent less visible. I'm sure this isn't the case >but that's certainly the feeling I go