"Emphasize to empathize” feels like a DEI T-Shirt! :)
Ed Mangini
m...@emangini.com
From: Jarek Potiuk
Reply: dev@community.apache.org
Date: May 4, 2022 at 12:22:46
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: Bertrand Delacretaz , Andrew Musselman
Subject: Re: It’s time to change the
.e. support the majority even if the
>> outcome isn’t specifically what we had hoped for).
>>
>> There are many possibilities from no change to wholesale rebranding (even
>> some we haven’t thought of). The cool thing about change is that as long as
>> we remain open t
morrow!
>
>
>
> From: Bertrand Delacretaz
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org
> Date: May 4, 2022 at 05:10:53
> To: dev
> Cc: Andrew Musselman
> Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
>
> Hi,
>
> (Bcc people who have been active in the wiki page mentioned b
that as long as we
remain open to it, changes today don’t stop us from making more changes
tomorrow!
From: Bertrand Delacretaz
Reply: dev@community.apache.org
Date: May 4, 2022 at 05:10:53
To: dev
Cc: Andrew Musselman
Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
Hi,
(Bcc people who have
Hi,
(Bcc people who have been active in the wiki page mentioned below)
Le ven. 29 avr. 2022 à 16:14, Andrew Musselman a écrit :
> ...Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so we can open a
> dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their official
> experience o
> Why "others"?
>
> My hot button is when people use the words like "they" and "others".
> The ASF is the set of people who show up to do the work. As such it
> is constantly growing and shrinking as new people show up and others
> move on to other things.
>
> If you are sincere about being willin
I don't think Walters use of "others" is intended to pass the buck.
@Walter, I'm assuming that your intent was to better understand the process
and scope of "how do I make a change in the ASF"?
I think we agree this is a big task, regardless of avenue.
My intent was mostly to gauge/rally interes
On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 5:49 PM Walter Cameron
wrote:
>
> My homework above was all about gathering more data to help others make a
> decision, but if there’s already an agreement on what needs to be done and
> the board or membership is willing make a change without a poll or vote
> that’s fine wi
Hi Sam, thank you for your prompt reply.
> There is no "they" here. If this is a topic that is important to you,
> show up. Do the work. Don't blame others for not doing your homework
> for you, or for not doing what you, yourself, are not willing to do.
I suppose my attempts are being misun
On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 4:20 PM Walter Cameron
wrote:
>
> Considering the lack of responses to my questions about the history here,
> I’m going to assume ASF has ignored past complaints similar to how they’ve
> ignored my own.
There is no "they" here. If this is a topic that is important to you,
Considering the lack of responses to my questions about the history here,
I’m going to assume ASF has ignored past complaints similar to how they’ve
ignored my own. I feel like a lot of this discussion has centered around
the idea that the offensiveness of mascotry can be gauged with some kind of
O
In the interest of gathering data on the impact of the name beyond my own
personal experience and understanding, is anyone aware of the details of
past complaints about the name?
Researching this topic I stumbled across a decade old thread that makes a
lot of incorrect claims as I understand them
t; software industry "Apache" is the foundation. In the
"People's"
> > > business - it's the Tribe. Why don't we formally separate
those two
> > > simply?
> > >
> > > J.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 3
separate those two
> > > simply?
> > >
> > > J.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2022 at 1:31 AM me wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 100% with you about the mechanics of a poll.
> > > >
> > > > It is absolutely nece
> > also
> > > > > but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the
> > > Washington
> > > > > Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I’m not saying a
> > > stopgap
> > > > > name is needed, but maybe just
; etc. before we can drive a poll. I think coming up with those questions
> is
> > part of what we’re chatting about. That in itself can be a challenge. I
> > agree about multiple options. (That’s where I was going w/ a Likert
> scale).
> > >
> > > In terms of LO
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org
>
> Date: April 30, 2022 at 12:56:44
> To: dev@community.apache.org
>
> Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
>
> >I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change might
> have.
>
> Is it possible that we
this on?
From: Walter Cameron
Reply: dev@community.apache.org
Date: April 30, 2022 at 12:56:44
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
>I think we all vastly underestimate the ripple effect such a change might
have.
Is it possible that we are a
strongly about the association, but I think the fact
> > > of life is that the same names might mean different things, and in the
> > > software industry "Apache" is the foundation. In the "People's"
> > > business - it's the Tribe. Why don&#x
is absolutely necessary to have a clearly defined goal, hypothesis,
> > etc. before we can drive a poll. I think coming up with those questions is
> > part of what we’re chatting about. That in itself can be a challenge. I
> > agree about multiple options. (That’s where I was g
me of the burden. DEI
> efforts have never been as important to people as they are right now. There
> are a lot of orgs willing to invest in that. Fundraising can easily turn
> into contracting fees. (I also work for a pretty large global consultancy
> whose core values are heavily focused
global consultancy whose
> core values are heavily focused on DEI, I’d be happy to socialize the effort.
> PMs, Devs, UX, CX, and so on. )
>
>
> From: Matt Sicker
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org
> Date: April 29, 2022 at 18:21:26
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re:
: It’s time to change the name
Schools and sports teams changing their names is trivial in comparison
to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports teams have their
name as part of APIs? This is on the level of deprecating .com in DNS
in favor of something else.
The concrete ideas
On 29/04/2022 23:21, Matt Sicker wrote:
as would
things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves
after native culture.
That is an easy one to implement. Consider it done. I'll update the
documented process for choosing a project name when I have a little more
time but th
be one single person to “drive” the effort.
> > If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) that are
> > willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be to drive it
> > by committee?
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Myrle Krantz
> > Re
e: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
> To: Community
> Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
>
> Walter,
>
> The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't particularly
> relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership positions at
> The
> Foundat
tasks, why can’t those tasks be to drive it by committee?
From: Myrle Krantz
Reply: dev@community.apache.org
Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
To: Community
Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
Walter,
The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't particularly
rel
>
> From: Sam Ruby
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org
> Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> To: Apache Community Dev
> Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
>
> Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is not a
> good idea.
>
> On Fri,
rized opinions.
>
> Julian
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Sam Ruby
> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org
> > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
Andrew for helping provide visibility!
>
>
>
> From: Sam Ruby
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org
> Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> To: Apache Community Dev
> Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
>
> Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is
Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
From: Sam Ruby
Reply: dev@community.apache.org
Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
To: Apache Community Dev
Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is not a
good idea
ard?
> >
> >
> > Ed Mangini
> > m...@emangini.com
> >
> >
> > From: Andrew Musselman
> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org
> > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
&g
in activities on this,
> no.
>
>
> > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll and
> > outreach?
> >
>
> Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Andrew Musselman
>
@Andrew,
How do we engage the board?
Ed Mangini
m...@emangini.com
From: Andrew Musselman
Reply: dev@community.apache.org
Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me wrote:
> And
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org
> Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Cc: Matt Sicker
> Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
>
> Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say land
> acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the
With respect, Apache is not trademarked nor is it proprietary.
It also represents free software. I fail to see how this would be
disrespectful. In fact the fight against large corporate takeover with OS
licenses and Open Source would seem to align well especially considering
stories like 'wounded
Musselman
Reply: dev@community.apache.org
Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: Matt Sicker
Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say land
acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of
(i.e. Likert?)
>
> @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we can put
> together a small tiger team to carry it out?
>
>
>
>
> From: Matt Sicker
> Reply: dev@community.apache.org
> Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> To: dev@community.apache.or
oll? Maybe we can put together
a small tiger team to carry it out?
From: Matt Sicker
Reply: dev@community.apache.org
Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example,
Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm feeling, since I
> didn't think of it as such :)
>
> Kind regards,
> Christian
>
> >
> >
> > Ed Mangini
> > m...@emangini.com
> >
> >
> > From: Christian Grobmeier
> > Re
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
>> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo Walter’s
>> > pas
: It’s time to change the name
Hello,
On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> The desire to make the change is definitely there. I echo Walter’s
> passion and statements.
+1
> I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy to accomplish.
+1
> Perhaps a st
> Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
>
> On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby wrote:
>
>> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do? What is
>> your plan? What resources do you need
answers?
From: Walter Cameron
Reply: dev@community.apache.org
Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby wrote:
> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do? What
On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby wrote:
> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer to do? What is
> your plan? What resources do you need?
Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring attention to this issue and
the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging it bu
A name change would be a lot of work.
Put another way, the only way such a change will occur is if there are
volunteers willing to see it through.
Stating the problem with the hopes that somebody else solves it
generally doesn't produce a satisfactory outcome.
Walter: what are you personally wil
Hello all,
When the Apache Group named itself and its software Apache, they were
continuing a long-practiced North American settler tradition of
appropriating Native identity as a costume for their own causes. An
environment filled with propaganda including everything from Hollywood
media to music
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