Re: helix gnome sound support not working

2001-02-06 Thread Brian May
> "Moritz" == Moritz Schulte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Moritz> Do you have xmms configured to use the esd output plugin? Moritz> (I've no idea about the other programs...) I would have thought this was the default. Oh, wait, no, its trying to use the OSS plugin. Thanks for your sugg

Re: helix gnome sound support not working

2001-02-05 Thread Moritz Schulte
Brian May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I have not been able to get sound support working under Helix Gnome > for several weeks now. > > esdplay works fine, but no Gnome programs work (xmms and Gnome Control > Centre for instance). Do you have xmms configured to use the esd output plugin? (I've

Re: Helix gnome control center freezes

2001-01-03 Thread Steve Cooper
When I try to run gnomecc it crashes out of X and returns me to my KDM prompt. Is Gnome currently broken under Woody? == Steve Cooper (working for somebody else in Redmond, WA) > > Subject: Re: Helix gnome control center freezes > Date: Wed, 3

Re: Helix gnome control center freezes

2001-01-03 Thread Juergen Fiedler
At Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:08:57 -0500, Seung-woo Nam wrote: > > Hi everyone: > > Since I upgraded my Debian system from 2.2_rev0 to 2.2_rev2, all the Sawfish > menus in Gnome control center wouldn't work (appearance, focus behaviour, > etc.). When I click on any of those the window just freezes and d

Re: Helix gnome control center freezes

2001-01-03 Thread Kristian Rink
And Remco van de Meent <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> gave word to the following thoughts: > I can't provide a solution but I've had the same problem. Try running > the control center using strace. You'll probably see that it tries to > find all kind of librep/rep-gtk related things. You need to fiddle > aro

Re: Helix gnome control center freezes

2001-01-03 Thread Remco van de Meent
Seung-woo Nam wrote: > Since I upgraded my Debian system from 2.2_rev0 to 2.2_rev2, all the > Sawfish menus in Gnome control center wouldn't work (appearance, > focus behaviour, etc.). When I click on any of those the window just > freezes and doesn't show any contents of menus. I know Helix gnome

Re: Helix gnome control center freezes

2001-01-03 Thread Paolo Pedaletti
Salve Seung-woo Nam, > Has anyone had the same problem? me too :-( -- Paolo Pedaletti, Como, ITALYa www.fastflow.it/~paolop [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 4755831

Re: helix gnome vs. woody gnome

2000-12-13 Thread Kai Weber
+ [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > packages? Are they as stable? Is there any strange behavior? Do they > contain as many programs as are available in the Helix packages? What are > the pros and cons of each? I switched over to a clean woody only system some days ago. I have to do some co

Re: Helix-gnome control center problems

2000-12-10 Thread Leen Besselink
On Sat, 9 Dec 2000, Rob VanFleet wrote: > For some reason, the gnome control center doesn't want me to configure any > sawfish aspects. When I click on any of the sawfish configuration options, > the > left pane displays nothing, and eventually, the entire app freezes and has to > be killed. > >

Re: Helix-gnome control center problems

2000-12-10 Thread Jamil
I had this problem as well, you need to install the rep packages from helixcode manually for some reason they don't install with task-helix-gnome. Jamil > For some reason, the gnome control center doesn't want me to configure any > sawfish aspects. When I click on any of the sawfish configuration

Re: Helix Gnome

2000-11-22 Thread Josh McKinney
You don't need to. On approximately Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 10:35:22AM -0500, Marcelo Chiapparini wrote: > Hi! > > Should I deinstall Gnome in order to install Helix Gnome in a Debian 2.2 > machine? > Thanks in advance > Marcelo > _ > Marcelo Chiapparini > [EMAIL PROTECTED] >

Re: Helix-Gnome not installable

2000-11-13 Thread Michael Epting
Sometime this morning, Helix made new packages available. I´ll bet it all works OK now, so ignore my earlier post. On Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 09:55:07PM -0500, Joel Dinel wrote: > I can't seem to install Helix Gnome on my woody box. > > dimmu:~# apt-get install task-helix-gnome > Reading Package Li

Re: Helix-Gnome not installable

2000-11-13 Thread Michael Epting
Since the problem is a conflict between Helix and Debian versions of some libraries, perhaps you can temporarily comment out the Debian lines in your sources.list, do an apt-get update and then try apt-get install task-helix-gnome. Don´t forget to fix your sources.list afterwards or you won´t be

Re: Helix-Gnome not installable

2000-11-12 Thread Jason Gunthorpe
On Sun, 12 Nov 2000, Joel Dinel wrote: > I can't seem to install Helix Gnome on my woody box. Thats an interesting apt quirk, just list all the packages at once: auric{jgg}~/apt2/build/bin#./apt-get install task-helix-gnome task-helix-core sawfish-gnome rep-gtk-gnome libgdk-pixbuf-gnome2 Readi

Re: Helix-Gnome not installable

2000-11-12 Thread Christoph Simon
> So I apt-get install task-helix-core. I get the same message, but wirh > sawfish-gnome. I install sawfush-gnome, now I get this same message about > rep-gtk-gnome. This goes on and on through more packages until : > > dimmu:~# apt-get install libgdk-pixbuf2 > Reading Package Lists... Done > Bu

Re: Helix-Gnome not installable

2000-11-12 Thread John S. J. Anderson
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Joel Dinel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: [ dependancy problem elided ] > Has anybody else encountered this? Is there woody boxes out there > running Helix?! I see this also, but I've already got a working install of Helix Gnome, so it's not a big deal.

Re: helix gnome & WindowMaker

2000-10-20 Thread G Mc.Pherson
Hi Stefan, On Fri, 20 Oct 2000, stefan goeman wrote: > Hello, > > After an upgrade (and a reboot) I have problems running WindowMaker under > Helix Gnome. > Gnome complains saying running a non gnome compliant windowmanger and > WindowMaker does > not start and I can't use Gnome either. I have

Re: Helix gnome on debian 2.2....

2000-09-25 Thread Andrew D Dixon
  use     >apt-get install task-helix-gnome after you set up your sources.list file.  The install instructions at     http://www.helixcode.com are very good.  I installed helix-gnome from fvwm2 without a hitch (I did have to restart my potato box though) but since then I have hosed sawmill but I

Re: Helix gnome on debian 2.2....

2000-09-24 Thread Rino Mardo
On Sun, Sep 24, 2000 at 07:20:49AM +0100 or thereabouts, Rus wrote: > Hi, an introduction.. my name's Rus.. I've been using RedHat for a bit.. and > now I'm making the jump to debs.. :-) > > Anyways... I'm just wondering if their is anything I should know about > installing Helix gnome on top of

RE: helix-gnome for Debian 2.2 ?

2000-09-10 Thread Dexter Graphic
Thanks for helping me understand how the Debian apt-get program can be used instead of the Helix-Gnome updater utility to install the latest version of Gnome from the HelixCode web site. Here is a summary of what I've learned: 1. Login as root. Note: I assume that Gnome and maybe even X should no

Re: helix-gnome for Debian 2.2 ?

2000-09-07 Thread Jürgen A. Erhard
> "Eric" == Eric G Miller writes: Eric> On Tue, Sep 05, 2000 at 11:10:15AM -0700, Dexter Graphic wrote: >> >apt-get install task-helix-gnome? >> >> Does anyone know if the helix-gnome updater will work with >> Debian 2.2? I have the helix-gnome 1.0 CD and a very slow

Re: helix-gnome for Debian 2.2 ?

2000-09-05 Thread Eric G . Miller
On Tue, Sep 05, 2000 at 11:10:15AM -0700, Dexter Graphic wrote: > >apt-get install task-helix-gnome? > > Does anyone know if the helix-gnome updater will work with > Debian 2.2? I have the helix-gnome 1.0 CD and a very slow > connection so it would be nice if I could just update the > parts of

Re: helix-gnome for Debian 2.2 ?

2000-09-05 Thread John Gilger
Anselm Almeida wrote: > Hi there, > > Will the helix-gnome .deb packages at the helix site work with > Debian 2.2? The Debian site says that helix-gnome .deb packages are > available at the helix-gnome site, but the only .deb packages available > there are meant for woody. Are they com

RE: helix-gnome for Debian 2.2 ?

2000-09-05 Thread Dexter Graphic
>apt-get install task-helix-gnome? Does anyone know if the helix-gnome updater will work with Debian 2.2? I have the helix-gnome 1.0 CD and a very slow connection so it would be nice if I could just update the parts of gnome that have changed in version 1.2. My concern is that the updater wor

Re: helix-gnome for Debian 2.2 ?

2000-09-05 Thread Antonio Rodriguez
Isn't that apt-get install task-helix-gnome? Rino Mardo wrote: > Yes you can and I have it working with potato. Here's part of my > sources.list: > > deb http://spidermonkey.helixcode.com/distributions/debian woody main > > You have to install it as "apt-get install task-helix-core". > > On Tue

Re: helix-gnome for Debian 2.2 ?

2000-09-05 Thread Rino Mardo
On Tue, Sep 05, 2000 at 06:04:33AM -0400 or thereabouts, Antonio Rodriguez wrote: > Isn't that apt-get install task-helix-gnome? > either works. --- Who's watching the watchmen? ICQ: 15096825

Re: helix-gnome for Debian 2.2 ?

2000-09-05 Thread Antonio Rodriguez
Yes, it will work. There is no big difference between the two yet. (potato and woody). Anselm Almeida wrote: > Hi there, > > Will the helix-gnome .deb packages at the helix site work with > Debian 2.2? The Debian site says that helix-gnome .deb packages are > available at the helix-gn

Re: helix-gnome for Debian 2.2 ?

2000-09-05 Thread Rino Mardo
Yes you can and I have it working with potato. Here's part of my sources.list: deb http://spidermonkey.helixcode.com/distributions/debian woody main You have to install it as "apt-get install task-helix-core". On Tue, Sep 05, 2000 at 12:05:59PM +0530 or thereabouts, Anselm Almeida wrote: >

Re: Helix Gnome solved!

2000-09-01 Thread Dale L . Morris
The fault is mine (as usual), there is a second part to the install which entails apt-get install task-helix-gnome, which I'm doing now.. Dale L . Morris ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > I always have trouble with Helix Gnome. This time I downloaded > everything using apt-get update. But when I change

Re: Helix Gnome

2000-09-01 Thread Dale L . Morris
I always have trouble with Helix Gnome. This time I downloaded everything using apt-get update. But when I change my .xsession file to read gnome-session, I'm back into the old gnome desktop that came with 2.2. What am I doing wrong now? I'm running potato, but that shouldn't make a difference, cor

Re: Helix Gnome

2000-09-01 Thread Moritz Schulte
On Fri, Sep 01, 2000 at 08:00:19AM -0700, Dale L . Morris wrote: > Can I install this in potato or do I have to upgrade to woody? Is this > a recommended upgrade? The Helix GNOME packages are also for potato. currently they run on both, potato and woody. later, when it gets harder to let these pa

Re: Helix Gnome

2000-09-01 Thread stefan goeman
Hello, Yes, I would also like to know this. On Fri, 01 Sep 2000 15:00:19 Dale L . Morris wrote: > Can I install this in potato or do I have to upgrade to woody? Is this > a recommended upgrade? > > thanks > > > Morten Liebach ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > On 1, sep, 2000 at 11:42:22 +, s

Re: Helix Gnome

2000-09-01 Thread Dale L . Morris
Can I install this in potato or do I have to upgrade to woody? Is this a recommended upgrade? thanks Morten Liebach ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On 1, sep, 2000 at 11:42:22 +, stefan goeman wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I know that there is something around like Helix Gnome. > > > > Why shoul

Re: Helix Gnome

2000-09-01 Thread Morten Liebach
On 1, sep, 2000 at 11:42:22 +, stefan goeman wrote: > Hello, > > I know that there is something around like Helix Gnome. > > Why should I consider using this instead of the normal Gnome packed with > Debian? The GNOME included in Debian Potato is not being upgraded now, and since the freez

Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

2000-08-27 Thread Felix Natter
Andrew Sullivan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 09:03:57PM +0200, Felix Natter wrote: > > > It seems like it will be better and surely safer than Outlook, > > Why better and, most particularly, why safer? Given that GNOME is > built to allow components to interact with one

Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

2000-08-04 Thread Jared Johnson
> > >Hi, I was reading today on slashdot about Evolution 0.3. They have a > > download link for the tar.gz file. I was wondering if the apt-get > utility > > will work if I use the spidermonkey.helixgnome.com source for the > update? > > Has anyone else tried this? No, this won't work. You can

Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

2000-08-04 Thread Andrew Sullivan
On Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 09:03:57PM +0200, Felix Natter wrote: > It seems like it will be better and surely safer than Outlook, Why better and, most particularly, why safer? Given that GNOME is built to allow components to interact with one another via scripting, there is no reason to suppose tha

Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

2000-08-04 Thread Felix Natter
Hans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > At 12:03 PM 7/28/00 -0400, Ethan Pierce wrote: > >Hi, I was reading today on slashdot about Evolution 0.3. They have a > download link for the tar.gz file. I was wondering if the apt-get utility > will work if I use the spidermonkey.helixgnome.com source for th

Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

2000-07-30 Thread paul
> ** On Jul 29, Ethan Pierce scribbled: > > The main reason I am psyched for evolution is my girlfriend cant grasp pine > > or mail. She needs something graphical. If I can avoid booting windows2000 > > so she can read her email in outlook I will be happy as a clam...hence > > evolution is the pe

Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

2000-07-29 Thread Marek Habersack
** On Jul 29, Ethan Pierce scribbled: > The main reason I am psyched for evolution is my girlfriend cant grasp pine > or mail. She needs something graphical. If I can avoid booting windows2000 > so she can read her email in outlook I will be happy as a clam...hence > evolution is the perfect solu

Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

2000-07-29 Thread Ethan Pierce
Message - From: "Marek Habersack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Hans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2000 4:34 AM Subject: Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

2000-07-29 Thread Marek Habersack
** On Jul 29, Andre Berger scribbled: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marek Habersack) writes: > > > it as on a marketing/support factor. If any of your customers would come to > > you and say "hm... I would switch to Linux, but I kinda like the M$ Outlook. > > If Linux had something like that...". Now you w

Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

2000-07-29 Thread Andre Berger
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marek Habersack) writes: > it as on a marketing/support factor. If any of your customers would come to > you and say "hm... I would switch to Linux, but I kinda like the M$ Outlook. > If Linux had something like that...". Now you will be able to say "Voila! > Evolution - right h

Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

2000-07-29 Thread Marek Habersack
** On Jul 29, Hans scribbled: > At 12:03 PM 7/28/00 -0400, Ethan Pierce wrote: > >Hi, I was reading today on slashdot about Evolution 0.3. They have a > download link for the tar.gz file. I was wondering if the apt-get utility > will work if I use the spidermonkey.helixgnome.com source for the up

Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

2000-07-28 Thread Hans
At 12:03 PM 7/28/00 -0400, Ethan Pierce wrote: >Hi, I was reading today on slashdot about Evolution 0.3. They have a download link for the tar.gz file. I was wondering if the apt-get utility will work if I use the spidermonkey.helixgnome.com source for the update? Has anyone else tried this? > >T

Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

2000-07-28 Thread Marek Habersack
** On Jul 28, Kent West scribbled: > Ethan Pierce wrote: > > > > Sorry all, the sources.list line should read: > > > > deb http://spidermonkey.helixcode.com/evolution/distributions/Debian/ ./ > > > > I thought the . in "./" was a typo, so I didn't include it. I got a > bunch of dependency error

Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

2000-07-28 Thread Kent West
Ethan Pierce wrote: > > Sorry all, the sources.list line should read: > > deb http://spidermonkey.helixcode.com/evolution/distributions/Debian/ ./ > I thought the . in "./" was a typo, so I didn't include it. I got a bunch of dependency errors. So I went back and added the . and tried again; st

Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

2000-07-28 Thread Phil Brutsche
A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far way, someone said... > Hi, I was reading today on slashdot about Evolution 0.3. They have a > download link for the tar.gz file. I was wondering if the apt-get > utility will work if I use the spidermonkey.helixgnome.com source for > the update? Has anyone

Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

2000-07-28 Thread Ethan Pierce
Sorry all, the sources.list line should read: deb http://spidermonkey.helixcode.com/evolution/distributions/Debian/ ./ >>> Kent West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 07/28/00 12:15PM >>> Ethan Pierce wrote: > > Sorry, I found the answer to my question. Evolution .3 is a Microsoft > Outlook replacement fo

Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

2000-07-28 Thread Kent West
Ethan Pierce wrote: > > Sorry, I found the answer to my question. Evolution .3 is a Microsoft > Outlook replacement for linux. To get it via apt-get add the following to > sources.list > > deb http://spidermonkey.helixcode.com/evolution/distributions/Debian > > run - apt-get update > -

Re: Helix Gnome Evolution 0.3

2000-07-28 Thread Ethan Pierce
Sorry, I found the answer to my question. Evolution .3 is a Microsoft Outlook replacement for linux. To get it via apt-get add the following to sources.list deb http://spidermonkey.helixcode.com/evolution/distributions/Debian run - apt-get update - apt-get install evolution Enjoy - thi

Re: Helix Gnome Updater

2000-07-10 Thread Mark Herrick
Oh - I was under the impression it was a bit smarter than that :( I don't think I'll bother then - Thanks Joachim. On 09/07/00 at 22:44 Joachim Trinkwitz spake the following magic words: >"Mark Herrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> I've installed Helix Gnome on my potato system using: >> apt-

Re: Helix Gnome Updater

2000-07-10 Thread Joachim Trinkwitz
"Mark Herrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I've installed Helix Gnome on my potato system using: > apt-get install task-helix-gnome > and it works great, but does anyone know where I can get debs for the > helix-updater? Not packaged after all I know, but what would you do with it? (The updater

Re: Helix Gnome vs Debian Gnome -- worth the upgrade?

2000-07-06 Thread Lee Elliott
Kent West wrote: > > Nathan E Norman wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 01:15:34PM -0500, Kent West wrote: > > > I tried to install HelixGNOME via the instructions for Debian on > > > the helixcore website (lynx -source blah blah blah), and chose > > > option 3 (full install), and it looked li

Re: Helix Gnome vs Debian Gnome -- worth the upgrade?

2000-07-05 Thread Kent West
Nathan E Norman wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 01:15:34PM -0500, Kent West wrote: > > I tried to install HelixGNOME via the instructions for Debian on > > the helixcore website (lynx -source blah blah blah), and chose > > option 3 (full install), and it looked like everything was going > > fin

Re: Helix Gnome vs Debian Gnome -- worth the upgrade?

2000-07-05 Thread Nathan E Norman
On Wed, Jul 05, 2000 at 01:15:34PM -0500, Kent West wrote: > I tried to install HelixGNOME via the instructions for Debian on > the helixcore website (lynx -source blah blah blah), and chose > option 3 (full install), and it looked like everything was going > fine, until I got a dependency error th

Re: Helix Gnome vs Debian Gnome -- worth the upgrade?

2000-07-05 Thread Kent West
Darlock wrote: > > On Wed, 5 Jul 2000, Morten Liebach wrote: > > Currently I use the potato with Helix GNOME and runs fine, I was installed > the Debian Potato GNOME and the upgrade works perfectly. > > I have this line into sources.list: > > deb http://spidermonkey.helixcode.com/distri

Default Color Depth in X (was Re: Helix Gnome vs Debian Gnome -- worth the upgrade?)

2000-07-05 Thread Dan Everton
> this! Anyway I prefer to start X from a command prompt so's I can specify > the colour depth. Swerving completely off topic here, but I see a lot of people do this. But if you don't like the default color depth that X comes up in, did you know you can change the default? I have the following l

Re: Helix Gnome vs Debian Gnome -- worth the upgrade?

2000-07-05 Thread Darlock
On Wed, 5 Jul 2000, Morten Liebach wrote: Currently I use the potato with Helix GNOME and runs fine, I was installed the Debian Potato GNOME and the upgrade works perfectly. I have this line into sources.list: deb http://spidermonkey.helixcode.com/distributions/debian unstable main

Re: Helix Gnome vs Debian Gnome -- worth the upgrade?

2000-07-05 Thread Morten Liebach
On Tue, Jul 04, 2000 at 06:11:56PM -0700, Eric G . Miller wrote: > On Tue, Jul 04, 2000 at 08:35:36PM -0400, Edwin Lau wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > I am using the unstable debian release. Having read the news > > group for a while, I noticed that a lot of people like the Helix > >

Re: Helix Gnome vs Debian Gnome -- worth the upgrade?

2000-07-05 Thread John Gould
Hi there, There certainly are debs on Helix's web site, works fine on potato, there supposedly for woody. You will get one unresolved dependancy, just sort this via 'apt-get install' from the woody archive. I believe it's guile6? And, yes I think it's worth the upgrade! I had one problem w

Re: Helix Gnome vs Debian Gnome -- worth the upgrade?

2000-07-05 Thread Brian May
> "Edwin" == Edwin Lau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Edwin> Hi everyone, I am using the unstable debian release. Edwin> Having read the news group for a while, I noticed that a Edwin> lot of people like the Helix Gnome stuff. My question is Edwin> if I upgrade to Helix Gnome now

Re: Helix Gnome vs Debian Gnome -- worth the upgrade?

2000-07-04 Thread Corey Popelier
The one thing I can't figure out is will there be a Gnome 1.2 as well? Or is Helix Gnome 1.2 and Gnome will do something else? I know the libs and stuff are 1.2 but the panel/etc is all still 1.0.55 (or so, im going from memory). Will Gnome release a 1.2 with the same sort of Panel goodies that exi

Re: Helix Gnome vs Debian Gnome -- worth the upgrade?

2000-07-04 Thread Eric G . Miller
On Tue, Jul 04, 2000 at 08:35:36PM -0400, Edwin Lau wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I am using the unstable debian release. Having read the news > group for a while, I noticed that a lot of people like the Helix > Gnome stuff. My question is if I upgrade to Helix Gnome now > ra

Re: Helix Gnome mirrors?

2000-05-27 Thread Almer. S. Tigelaar.
Hello, John Ericson wrote: > > Anyone got any URL to where I can find all mirrors of Helix Gnome? Sure, An XML document. ftp://ftp.helixcode.com/pub/helix/mirrors.xml I believe most of the mirrors (if not all) carry the debian packages. Simply put one in your sources.list and things will work

Re: helix-gnome for debian?

2000-05-14 Thread Graeme Mathieson
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Brian Stults <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > For anyone who might be wondering, it looks like the initial > plan was to have binaries for debian at release time, but they ran out > of time and decided to release without debian support. I guess we

Re: helix-gnome for debian?

2000-05-13 Thread Brian Stults
Brian Stults wrote: > > Does anyone know if there are plans for the folks at Eazel to release > helix-gnome for debian? > > -Brian > -- Nevermind. After some more searching, I found threads on a couple different mailing lists about this. Seems there was some debate, and some misunders