*The (U)EFI partition seems far to small, I think mine was about 200 MB
originaly and I extended it to 700 MB, so I was able to make UEFI updates.*Are
UEFI updates necessary? What's the smallest allowable size I can make for
UEFI partition? Or is that not a wise thing to do?
*PXE Boot is booting
On 12/2/20 8:25 am, Miguel A. Vallejo wrote:
Are you sure this is not coming from a software you are using?
For every problem I had / have with Intel GPU I can find other users
on any distribution's bug tracker with exactly the very same errors in
the kernel log, so I'm pretty sure I'm not the
Am 11. Feb, 2020 schwätzte Carl Fink so:
moin moin,
So, I've owned two smartwatches. Both of them required a proprietary Android
or iOS app to use many of their features.
Is there such a thing as a Free Software API for smartwatches/personal
fitness devices? With maybe a FOSS app, and a way
On 2/11/20 12:24 PM, Curt wrote:
On 2020-02-11, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
Some work-in-progress:
https://www.pine64.org/pinetime/
Kind regards,
Andrei
There's also AsteroidOS (watch not included).
https://asteroidos.org/
So three suggestions so far. I'm surprised there are that many.
PineTim
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020, 7:36 PM Felix Miata
I do no virtualization except for DOS on an OS/2 derivative.
>
I have to say this remark made my day :-)
As a former OS/2 app developer.
>
Miguel A. Vallejo composed on 2020-02-11 20:07 (UTC+0100):
> What are your recommendations / experiences?
Nothing like yours or all those bug reports. I've been using Intel, Nvidia and
AMD/ATI since over 15 years ago, but more with Intel than the others in recent
years, and across several distros
On 12/02/2020 05:03, riveravaldez wrote:
On 2/11/20, songbird wrote:
something in there didn't work today when i applied
the upgrade.
i don't have time to debug or file reports at the moment,
so was able to partially downgrade to get a working connection
again.
put my hold back on ip
> My advice: put an nvidia card in there. That's what I did, and have had no
> problems since.
Thank you for the advice. That's my plan if kernel 5.5 doesn't work well.
> I think it is important to find the appropriate kernel version for your
> system - the one that has all the bits and bolts for your hardware. I doubt
> I will move to newer kernel. This one seems to have all the fixes at least
> for the hardware I am using now and especially the gpu part. I also
On 2/11/20, songbird wrote:
> something in there didn't work today when i applied
> the upgrade.
>
> i don't have time to debug or file reports at the moment,
> so was able to partially downgrade to get a working connection
> again.
>
> put my hold back on iptables. i'd had a hold on it for
On Tue, 11 Feb 2020, at 16:09, Richard Owlett wrote:
> I wish to enter/store data while away from home. The data will then be
> transferred to my laptop via a USB cable. [Think the capability of one
> of the old Palm Pilots in a smartphone(sic) form factor]
You might want to skim through the dis
Miguel A. Vallejo wrote on 2/11/20 12:07 PM:
>
> What are my alternatives? nVidia cards? I've never used an nVidia card
> but I have read also tons of problems with them in the past. How about
> now? And how about AMD cards?
>
> What are your recommendations / experiences?
>
My advice: put an
Miguel A. Vallejo wrote:
> For every problem I had / have with Intel GPU I can find other users
> on any distribution's bug tracker with exactly the very same errors in
> the kernel log, so I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one suffering from
> Intel GPUs. In fact I am surprised by the small number
David Wright wrote:
> It might still track you when you omit the SIM card.
> You might be able to disconnect the aerial if you open it up.
Ah, you didn't read it either.
The PinePhone has 6 physical killswitches:
Modem: On enables 2G/3G/4G communication and GNSS hardware,
off disables.
> Are you sure this is not coming from a software you are using?
For every problem I had / have with Intel GPU I can find other users
on any distribution's bug tracker with exactly the very same errors in
the kernel log, so I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one suffering from
Intel GPUs. In fact I
Interesting very interesting.
> (On what GPU?)
The same as yours:
VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation HD Graphics 530 (rev 06)
in a I5-6500 CPU.
> For whatever it's worth, I do *not* see any problems like this. Not
> even close. Intel integrated graphics of this generation have
Miguel A. Vallejo wrote:
> I always ran the intel microcode package, tried every bios update, and
> I even changed the whole computer, so this is not the solution.
Using 4.9.25 since it came out - no issue on any of the PCs I have and they
all are with intel integrated GPU.
Are you sure this is
On Tue 11 Feb 2020 at 14:00:51 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 02/11/2020 10:24 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > I wish to enter/store data while away from home. The data will then be
> > > transferred to my laptop via a USB cable. [Think the capability of one of
> > > the
Steve McIntyre wrote:
>>I have this one for may be 7y already.
>>
>>08:00.0 SCSI storage controller: LSI Logic / Symbios Logic SAS1068E
>>PCI-Express Fusion-MPT SAS (rev 08)
>>
>>https://wiki.pdl.cmu.edu/pub/OpenCloud/CloudManuals/SCG_LSISAS1068E_PB_040407.pdf
>>
>>It is 3Gb/s - don't know about t
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 10:15:29PM +0100, Miguel A. Vallejo wrote:
> Because everytime my system hangs / freezes I found something like
> this in syslog:
(On what GPU?)
> [ 135.116721] i915 :00:02.0: GPU HANG: ecode 9:1:0x, hang on rcs0
> [ 135.116724] GPU hangs can indicate a bug a
> Hi, Miguel
> The computer I'm typing on is a Lenovo Z570. I7-2670 processor, 8 gigs
> ram, 480 gig ssd. Snappy as hell. Running Debian Bullseye. I've made
> it usable by:
> Adding a 20-intel.config file to /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d
> Adding the Ubuntu graphics PPA
> Modifying the /etc/default/grub fil
> I have had perfectly reasonable experiences with:
>
> nvidia 8400
> nvidia 720
> nvidia 730
> nvidia 1030
> nvidia 1050
I made a quick search and some of these cards are under 50 euros, so I
will try if I do not get a solution. Thank you for the advice!
On 02/11/2020 02:54 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
On Tuesday 11 February 2020 15:00:51 Richard Owlett wrote:
On 02/11/2020 10:24 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
Richard Owlett wrote:
I wish to enter/store data while away from home. The data will then
be transferred to my laptop via a USB cable. [Think the ca
> I was under impression that Intel GPUs are supported quite well.
>
> How exactly did you reach the conclusion that the freezes are related to
> the GPU?
Because everytime my system hangs / freezes I found something like
this in syslog:
[ 135.116721] i915 :00:02.0: GPU HANG: ecode 9:1:0x000
On Tuesday 11 February 2020 15:00:51 Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 02/11/2020 10:24 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > Richard Owlett wrote:
> >> I wish to enter/store data while away from home. The data will then
> >> be transferred to my laptop via a USB cable. [Think the capability
> >> of one of the old P
Miguel A. Vallejo wrote:
> What are my alternatives? nVidia cards? I've never used an nVidia card
> but I have read also tons of problems with them in the past. How about
> now? And how about AMD cards?
I have had perfectly reasonable experiences with:
nvidia 8400
nvidia 720
nvidia 730
nvidia 10
On Ma, 11 feb 20, 20:07:49, Miguel A. Vallejo wrote:
> Around the end of 2014 I moved to Debian as my primary operating
> system. In that year my computer was a Dual Core CPU with integrated
> GPU. It worked just fine with the previous operating system but as
> soon I started to use Debian every da
On Ma, 11 feb 20, 12:26:38, Thomas George wrote:
>
> It would be nice to have an html viewer which opens a file in the current
> directory with auto-completion of the initial word of the filename.
It's not clear where that "current directory" is, a shell, file manager,
etc.?
In a shell you can
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 13:58 Mike Oliver wrote:
...
> > Mike, thanks for your help. I just ordered the eBook you suggested.
The book is very helpful. The cookbook approach is my favorite for these
kind of topics.
After you get your feet wet, be sure to check out Ansible Galaxy
> (https://gala
On Ma, 11 feb 20, 17:14:35, John wrote:
> I run a small LAN (currently about 10 active members) all connected to
> the Internet via a Debian Buster firewall and PPPoE. Most of the time
> this is stable and transparent but just on occasion (like last night)
> the PPP link goes down and I have to re
On Ma, 11 feb 20, 10:53:45, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
>
> Thanks for challenging my claim. Without your reply I probably
> wouldn't have made the test.
That was certainly not my intention, so I apologize to the list for the
additional traffic.
Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FA
On Tue 11 Feb 2020 at 07:36:49 (-0800), pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
>
> * From: Andrei POPESCU
> * Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:43:11 +0200
> > Without In-Reply-To a mail reader has no way to which message the reply
> > belongs, so it's more important than References.
>
> Please look at the W
On 02/11/2020 10:24 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
Richard Owlett wrote:
I wish to enter/store data while away from home. The data will then be
transferred to my laptop via a USB cable. [Think the capability of one of
the old Palm Pilots in a smartphone(sic) form factor]
It must use a standard Linux (De
Tom Browder writes:
> On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 9:46 AM Mike Oliver wrote:
>> Tom Browder writes:
> ...
>
> Mike, thanks for your help. I just ordered the eBook you suggested.
> And, after looking at Rex, I think I'll try the Ansible route for now
> (although porting it to Raku would be an intere
On Tue 11 Feb 2020 at 10:53:45 (-0800), pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
>
> Now we can see the result of the test.
>
> Messages
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/02/msg00416.html
> and
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/02/msg00420.html
> both thread back to your reply which threads
On Tue, 2020-02-11 at 17:14 +, John wrote:
> I run a small LAN (currently about 10 active members) all connected to
> the Internet via a Debian Buster firewall and PPPoE. Most of the time
> this is stable and transparent but just on occasion (like last night)
> the PPP link goes down and I hav
Things are much better here. Tech Support at Crucial insisted
that every drive they ship out contains 1 usb-C to usb-C cable
and an adapter to make it fit a usb-A port. I figure it had
accidentally been discarded as trash or was really left out but I
kept looking and found the little box the driv
Around the end of 2014 I moved to Debian as my primary operating
system. In that year my computer was a Dual Core CPU with integrated
GPU. It worked just fine with the previous operating system but as
soon I started to use Debian every day I got system freezes that I
quickly diagnose as GPU bugs. T
Andrei,
Now we can see the result of the test.
Messages
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/02/msg00416.html
and
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/02/msg00420.html
both thread back to your reply which threads back to my original
message. They have the same References. 416 was i
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 12:09 PM Yvan Masson
wrote:
...
> I can only answer this question: I use Ansible regularly, and I am
> satisfied because it works :-) and the setup is really easy compared to
> what I understood from other tools (did'nt know Rex). Push mode also
> seems the way to go if you
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 9:46 AM Mike Oliver wrote:
> Tom Browder writes:
...
Mike, thanks for your help. I just ordered the eBook you suggested.
And, after looking at Rex, I think I'll try the Ansible route for now
(although porting it to Raku would be an interesting project).
Cheers!
-Tom
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 12:26:38PM -0500, Thomas George wrote:
>
> file:///home/user/directory/long file name.html
>
> It would be nice to have an html viewer which opens a file in the current
> directory with auto-completion of the initial word of the filename.
>
> Is there such a thing?
Not t
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 05:14:35PM +, John wrote:
> 1: Since upgrading from Stretch to Buster the plog command does not
> work, showing only pre-Buster output. This is clearly because
> /var/log/ppp.log is not being written to. The man page for plog says
> that it would be if /etc/syslog.con
On 2/11/2020 6:26 PM, Thomas George wrote:
> Obviously I can view html files with any of the browsers. It is not
> always convenient. If I save an interesting web page by right clicking
> on save as the result is a often a very long file name containing
> spaces. I save these html files in various
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 07:49:42AM -0800, pe...@easthope.ca wrote:
> This is a deliberate 2nd copy of a message. In-Reply-To is omitted
> from the header to test threading.
>
>
Well you've proven your point. My MUA does indeed thread this in
the correct order.
However, what actually is your poi
Hi,
Le 11/02/2020 à 16:08, Tom Browder a écrit :
I'm considering using Ansible (from Debian packages) for maintaining
multiple remote Debian servers. The master server will be my Debian laptop.
I have three questions:
1. If you have experience with Debian ansible, are you or were you
satisfi
I run a small LAN (currently about 10 active members) all connected to
the Internet via a Debian Buster firewall and PPPoE. Most of the time
this is stable and transparent but just on occasion (like last night)
the PPP link goes down and I have to restart it manually when I notice
the issue. This
Obviously I can view html files with any of the browsers. It is not
always convenient. If I save an interesting web page by right clicking
on save as the result is a often a very long file name containing
spaces. I save these html files in various directories according to
subject. if I subseque
On 2020-02-11, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>
> Some work-in-progress:
> https://www.pine64.org/pinetime/
>
> Kind regards,
> Andrei
There's also AsteroidOS (watch not included).
https://asteroidos.org/
--
"J'ai pour me guérir du jugement des autres toute la distance qui me sépare de
moi." Antonin A
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 09:25 Dan Ritter wrote:
> Tom Browder wrote:
...
> If you have flocks of nearly identical servers in several
> flavors, you want Puppet or Chef or something similar.
>
...
> Puppet has its own language for configuration.
>
> Both take the approach that a long-running cl
Dan Ritter writes:
> If I recall correctly, Martin doesn't see well, which explains a
> chunk of the confusion here.
Well, my wife has excellent vision and we were talking
about how pictures can be almost worthless after a certain point.
Several of those small connectors look similar. A
On Ma, 11 feb 20, 09:47:50, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> That sounds like a Micro usb port. If you have a connector like that
> try inserting it very gently. If it doesn't go in easily, flip the
> cable and try the other side.
The regular Micro-B connector supports only USB 2.0. The USB 3.0 Micro-B
c
On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 09:38 Alex Mestiashvili
wrote:
> On 2/11/20 4:08 PM, Tom Browder wrote:
...
> > 1. If you have experience with Debian ansible, are you or were you
> > satisfied with the experience?
>
...
> I won't say much about ansible since I didn't use it long enough.
> If you need
This is a deliberate 2nd copy of a message. In-Reply-To is omitted
from the header to test threading.
Andrei,
* From: Andrei POPESCU
* Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:43:11 +0200
> Without In-Reply-To a mail reader has no way to which message the reply
> belongs, so it's more important
On Ma, 11 feb 20, 06:50:58, Martin McCormick wrote:
> I don't know if things have changed or I forgot how to do this
> but I want to boot in to a Debian image and not install it but
> invoke a shell so as to clone the hard drive on a Windows machine
> to an external hard drive.
From memory, I'm aw
Richard Owlett wrote:
> I wish to enter/store data while away from home. The data will then be
> transferred to my laptop via a USB cable. [Think the capability of one of
> the old Palm Pilots in a smartphone(sic) form factor]
>
> It must use a standard Linux (Debian preferred).
> The manufacture
Mike Oliver wrote:
> Managing Debian with Ansible is pretty similar to managing
> just about every other Linux distribution,
This is my experience as well.
> with a few minor tweaks
> (e.g. using the 'apt' module for managing packages instead of yum/dnf).
For simple tasks one can use the package
Andrei,
* From: Andrei POPESCU
* Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 21:43:11 +0200
> Without In-Reply-To a mail reader has no way to which message the reply
> belongs, so it's more important than References.
Please look at the Web view of your reply. (If your mailer linkifies
this URL, click
On Ma, 11 feb 20, 21:07:05, kaye n wrote:
> Thank you guys for telling me the email got lost. I'll just describe it.
>
> The partition table is GPT.
>
> Imagine you're looking at the graphical presentation of my hdd in GParted.
>
> Starting from the left:
For the future, you could paste the (r
I wish to enter/store data while away from home. The data will then be
transferred to my laptop via a USB cable. [Think the capability of one
of the old Palm Pilots in a smartphone(sic) form factor]
It must use a standard Linux (Debian preferred).
The manufacturer should ship with the Linux ins
Tom Browder writes:
> I'm considering using Ansible (from Debian packages) for maintaining
> multiple remote Debian servers. The master server will be my Debian laptop.
>
> I have three questions:
>
> 1. If you have experience with Debian ansible, are you or were you
> satisfied with the experie
Tom Browder writes:
> I'm considering using Ansible (from Debian packages) for maintaining
> multiple remote Debian servers. The master server will be my Debian laptop.
>
> I have three questions:
>
> 1. If you have experience with Debian ansible, are you or were you
> satisfied with the experie
On 2/11/20 4:08 PM, Tom Browder wrote:
I'm considering using Ansible (from Debian packages) for maintaining
multiple remote Debian servers. The master server will be my Debian laptop.
I have three questions:
1. If you have experience with Debian ansible, are you or were you
satisfied with the
Tom Browder wrote:
> I'm considering using Ansible (from Debian packages) for maintaining
> multiple remote Debian servers. The master server will be my Debian laptop.
If you have a few, mostly different servers, Ansible is a
reasonable choice.
If you have flocks of nearly identical servers in s
delop...@gmail.com wrote:
>> My research thus far:
>>
>> 1. LSI products are popular, but:
>>
>> a. Most seem to be PCIe x8.
>>
>> b. STFW I see more than a few posts complaining about changing
>> firmware from RAID to non-RAID, buggy firmware releases, and/or
>> motherboard BIOS/UE
Martin McCormick wrote:
> After recently ordering and receiving a new 1 TB external
> SSD drive, I realized I had no way to connect it. It has a small
> rectangular slot about 8 MM or a quarter of an inch long. A Mac
> lightning connector is almost exactly the same size but
> fortunately d
I'm considering using Ansible (from Debian packages) for maintaining
multiple remote Debian servers. The master server will be my Debian laptop.
I have three questions:
1. If you have experience with Debian ansible, are you or were you
satisfied with the experience?
2. There are many published b
Hit the < key until a numbered debian menu comes up. Execute a shell
will be one of your options. Key in that number and you'll get the ash
shell up and can go from there.
On Tue, 11 Feb 2020, john doe wrote:
> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:21:52
> From: john doe
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
I've never held a firewire connector though my computer has one on its
top, so can't say if what you need is a usb to firewire cable.
On Tue, 11 Feb 2020, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:47:50
> From: Jude DaShiell
> To: Martin McCormick , debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject:
That sounds like a Micro usb port. If you have a connector like that
try inserting it very gently. If it doesn't go in easily, flip the
cable and try the other side.
On Tue, 11 Feb 2020, Martin McCormick wrote:
> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 08:31:37
> From: Martin McCormick
> To: debian-user@lists.
something in there didn't work today when i applied
the upgrade.
i don't have time to debug or file reports at the moment,
so was able to partially downgrade to get a working connection
again.
put my hold back on iptables. i'd had a hold on it for
a while due to reported errors. no idea w
Hi,
Martin McCormick wrote:
> After recently ordering and receiving a new 1 TB external
> SSD drive, I realized I had no way to connect it. It has a small
> rectangular slot about 8 MM or a quarter of an inch long. A Mac
> lightning connector is almost exactly the same size but
> fortunately does
kaye n composed on 2020-02-11 21:07 (UTC+0800):
> The partition table is GPT.
Created how? Did you do it yourself prior to beginning installation of Debian?
> Imagine you're looking at the graphical presentation of my hdd in GParted.
> Starting from the left:
> 858GB NTFS partition (intended f
On 2/11/2020 1:50 PM, Martin McCormick wrote:
> I don't know if things have changed or I forgot how to do this
> but I want to boot in to a Debian image and not install it but
> invoke a shell so as to clone the hard drive on a Windows machine
> to an external hard drive.
>
> For computer use
On 2/11/20 8:31 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:
> After recently ordering and receiving a new 1 TB external
> SSD drive, I realized I had no way to connect it. It has a small
> rectangular slot about 8 MM or a quarter of an inch long. A Mac
> lightning connector is almost exactly the same size
Martin McCormick composed on 2020-02-11 07:31 (UTC-0600):
> After recently ordering and receiving a new 1 TB external
> SSD drive, I realized I had no way to connect it. It has a small
> rectangular slot about 8 MM or a quarter of an inch long. A Mac
> lightning connector is almost exactly
Hi,
>Is there such a thing as a Free Software API for smartwatches/personal
>fitness devices? With maybe a FOSS app, and a way to use them with a
>Linux-based PC?
At FOSDEM, I learned about Bangle.JS.
-nik
Thanks.
Two thoughts about your failures:
The (U)EFI partition seems far to small, I think mine was about 200 MB
originaly and I extended it to 700 MB, so I was able to make UEFI updates.
PXE Boot is booting over network (TFTP) and not want you want. You can
configure your boot device in the BIO
After recently ordering and receiving a new 1 TB external
SSD drive, I realized I had no way to connect it. It has a small
rectangular slot about 8 MM or a quarter of an inch long. A Mac
lightning connector is almost exactly the same size but
fortunately doesn't plug in but that's the siz
Thank you guys for telling me the email got lost. I'll just describe it.
The partition table is GPT.
Imagine you're looking at the graphical presentation of my hdd in GParted.
Starting from the left:
858GB NTFS partition (intended for storing all kinds of data)
then
20GB ext4 partition, with
On Ma, 11 feb 20, 07:02:47, Carl Fink wrote:
> So, I've owned two smartwatches. Both of them required a proprietary Android
> or iOS app to use many of their features.
>
> Is there such a thing as a Free Software API for smartwatches/personal
> fitness devices? With maybe a FOSS app, and a way to
I don't know if things have changed or I forgot how to do this
but I want to boot in to a Debian image and not install it but
invoke a shell so as to clone the hard drive on a Windows machine
to an external hard drive.
For computer users who are blind, this is a real boon in
situations lik
So, I've owned two smartwatches. Both of them required a proprietary
Android or iOS app to use many of their features.
Is there such a thing as a Free Software API for smartwatches/personal
fitness devices? With maybe a FOSS app, and a way to use them with a
Linux-based PC?
Seems like a pipe
On Feb 10, 2020, David Christensen wrote:
> On 2020-02-10 13:55, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> On Feb 10, 2020, David Christensen wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> It has the following expansion slots:
>>>
>>> - One PCI Express 2.0 x16 add-in card connector
>>> - One PCI Express 2.0 x4 add-in card connector
>>> - One
deloptes wrote:
> David Christensen wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the data point.
> >
> >
> > Did you have to do anything with firmware?
>
> not at all - driver in the kernel is mature - but again it is 3Gb/s per
> port.
>
> Honestly I must look inside the server as I do not remember how it is
> c
Felix Miata wrote:
> kaye n composed on 2020-02-11 17:23 (UTC+0800):
>
> > No one?
>
> Your OP seems to have gotten lost in the ether. I don't see it on
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/02/threads.html and don't remember
> seeing it arrive among any other debian-user email. I do see th
kaye n composed on 2020-02-11 17:23 (UTC+0800):
> No one?
Your OP seems to have gotten lost in the ether. I don't see it on
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/02/threads.html and don't remember
seeing it arrive among any other debian-user email. I do see there another
original post from yo
No one?
On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 6:35 PM kaye n wrote:
> Hello Friends!
>
> Are my attached files too big? If so, let me know, I'll make them smaller
> next time.
>
> debian_01.jpg shows how I formatted the brand new hard drive. My goal is
> to install Debian first, then Windows. I know it's not
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