Cannot read DVD

2007-10-11 Thread Dimitrios Eftaxiopoulos
I use Debian Lenny, on an i386 laptop. I try to mount a dvd and I get [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ sudo mount /dev/hdc -t iso9660 /media/cdrom0 mount: block device /dev/hdc is write-protected, mounting read-only mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/hdc, missing codepage or help

Re: debian kernel bugs / or is it grub?

2007-10-11 Thread Richard
Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > I find it hard to understand how ubuntu can boot when debian > can't. I'm willing to be that if you end up reinstalling debian again, > it just works. shrug. > > A Back in Ubuntu again after another unsuccessful install-round with Debian. Tried again, a littl

Re: I can't calibrate my touchscreen

2007-10-11 Thread Kevin Mark
On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 12:31:11AM +, TonyK wrote: > Hi everyone, I have some difficulties calibrating my touchscreen that > I just installed. > I installed my touchscreen on debian with penmount driver for DMC9000 > controller (my touchscreen is connected on /dev/ttyS1) > > Now I can move the

epiphany and galeon cannot find acroread ("testing")

2007-10-11 Thread Russell L. Harris
Neither epiphany nor galeon can find "adobe reader"; I installed acroread in /usr/local/Acrobat5/bin/acroread with a symlink in /usr/local/bin . I found a file ~/.galeon , but no corresponding file for epiphany. For both galeon and epiphany, the help file displays as a page of raw XML. desktop

Re: Regarding tar and split

2007-10-11 Thread Carl Johnson
David Brodbeck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Oct 11, 2007, at 5:01 AM, Sean Zimmermann wrote: > > If I ignored the indexing issue (since most of my work with tar is > > large, > > non-incremental backups where I typically restore the entire > > contents - > > it would be nice if there was index

Re: Regarding tar and split

2007-10-11 Thread Celejar
On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:48:10 +0200 "Manon Metten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Sean, > > You might consider using Lha. It does the same as tar and bzip2 together Tar itself integrates bzip2 via the 'j' switch. > Manon. Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP)

Re: Trying to find 80wire ide extension cable in France

2007-10-11 Thread Bob
Nigel Henry wrote: Sorry for posting this here. I've got one fixed drive, vertical on the front of the machine. the other drives are accessed using a 5 1/4 slot hard drive caddy. This is a carrier that fits in one of my 5 1/4 slots, and I have numerous harddrives in drawers that slot into the c

Re: migration and installation 50 THOUSAND machines

2007-10-11 Thread Andrew Sackville-West
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 05:31:38PM -0700, andremachado wrote: > Hello, Sergio > Unfortunately, I can not talk about it. are you working for no such ageny? > It is a long term (a decade) *concept*, and I need url as resources for the > study start. > Please, read the previously cited urls and loo

Re: SSH Question

2007-10-11 Thread Andrew Sackville-West
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 06:48:26PM -0600, Telly Williams wrote: > > if you talk about the target computer being a windows host then cygwin > > has an ssh daemon, personally I use rdesktop for windows as the shell > > is pretty useless on windows imho. > > > > if you talk about another machine bein

I can't calibrate my touchscreen

2007-10-11 Thread TonyK
Hi everyone, I have some difficulties calibrating my touchscreen that I just installed. I installed my touchscreen on debian with penmount driver for DMC9000 controller (my touchscreen is connected on /dev/ttyS1) Now I can move the mouse cursor with the touchscreen, but there is like a mirror beha

Re: migration and installation 50 THOUSAND machines

2007-10-11 Thread andremachado
Hello, Sergio Unfortunately, I can not talk about it. It is a long term (a decade) *concept*, and I need url as resources for the study start. Please, read the previously cited urls and look for errors or omissions. Do you have urls to suggest? How about openldap, Zabbix, Gosa2, ZenOss, etc, in su

Re: SSH Question

2007-10-11 Thread Telly Williams
> if you talk about the target computer being a windows host then cygwin > has an ssh daemon, personally I use rdesktop for windows as the shell > is pretty useless on windows imho. > > if you talk about another machine being windows and your home machine > - being remote and the target google for

no sound with Intel ICH5 and Conexant cx88

2007-10-11 Thread Eike Lantzsch
Hello: I can't manage to make Pixelview 8000 with the Conexant chip cx8801 on my ASUS board with ICH5 bridge play nicely together. Sound works fine if Pixelview isn't plugged in but as soon as the board is present there is only one capture device left in alsamixer. kernel: 2.6.22-2-686 #1 SMP a

dhelp issue

2007-10-11 Thread Michael D. Norwick
Good Day; During recent apt-get upgrades on etch testing, I have been receiving the following warnings(errors?). Can someone please advise me as to what to configure to fix this? '/usr/sbin/dhelp_parse: /usr/lib/libdb-4.5.so: no version information available (required by /usr/sbin/dhelp_par

Re: migration and installation 50 THOUSAND machines

2007-10-11 Thread Sergio Cuéllar Valdés
2007/10/11, andremachado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Hello, > As PART of a viability study about using Debian GNU / Linux for a massive > deployment from 5 thousand > up to 50 thousand machines (desktops AND servers) geographically distributed > across a country, > I searched for some installation, co

migration and installation 50 THOUSAND machines

2007-10-11 Thread andremachado
Hello, As PART of a viability study about using Debian GNU / Linux for a massive deployment from 5 thousand up to 50 thousand machines (desktops AND servers) geographically distributed across a country, I searched for some installation, configuration and config management tools for this task s

Re: SSH Question

2007-10-11 Thread Martin Marcher
Hi, 2007/10/11, Telly Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Hi, > > I see some of you talking about SSHing into your computer from > another. What if the computer you're > using isn't Linux/Unix? if you talk about the target computer being a windows host then cygwin has an ssh

Re: PCIe Video and Open source 3D drivers

2007-10-11 Thread Wakko Warner
Orestes Leal wrote: > El Lun, 8 de Octubre de 2007, 5:21 pm, Wakko Warner escribi??: > > Kelly Clowers wrote: > >> On 10/7/07, Wakko Warner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > Thanks. I saw the X800 listed, unfortunately, ATI makes both a PCIe > >> and an > >> > AGP 8x version of the card. Not sure

Re: PCIe Video and Open source 3D drivers

2007-10-11 Thread Wakko Warner
Orestes Leal wrote: > El Dom, 7 de Octubre de 2007, 9:49 pm, Wakko Warner escribi??: > > Kelly Clowers wrote: > >> > I was looking at a V5100 or V7100 (both based on the X800 or X850 > >> chip). > >> > But the question remains, is the R4xx chips supported in 3D? > >> > >> Yes r400 is supported: > >

Re: PCIe Video and Open source 3D drivers

2007-10-11 Thread Orestes Leal
El Dom, 7 de Octubre de 2007, 9:49 pm, Wakko Warner escribió: > Kelly Clowers wrote: >> > I was looking at a V5100 or V7100 (both based on the X800 or X850 >> chip). >> > But the question remains, is the R4xx chips supported in 3D? >> >> Yes r400 is supported: >> http://spearhead.wordpress.com/2007

Re: Problem with amixer or ...

2007-10-11 Thread Anna L. Shefl
I've finally revisited this so should update you folks... Andrew Sackville-West suggested purging and reinstalling alsa-tools, alsa-base, and alsa-utils and then not running alsaconf at all. Without running alsaconf, sound still doesn't work, and, for example, xmms gives me the 'Make sure your s

new beta packages for cacti/spine(former cacti-cactid) available

2007-10-11 Thread sean finney
hello debian-user, for those of you who use cacti I've prepared some packages of the beta4 release of cacti/spine 0.8.7 (for spine, i386 and amd64 builds), which are now available for general testing and feedback. The easiest way to upgrade is to put: deb http://people.debian.org/~sean

Re: How to wifi with ipw3945 on Dell Vostro ???

2007-10-11 Thread Sarunas Burdulis
Joost Kraaijeveld wrote: Hi, I am running Debian Lenny on a Dell Vostro laptop which has a ipw3945 wifi card. The card is recognised by the software and it even works somehow (I can see all the wifi networks in my building using wifi-radar). But whatever I do I cannot get a (DHCP) ip address

Re: Can you help about udp?

2007-10-11 Thread Ryan Nowakowski
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 08:50:20AM -0400, chloe K wrote: > I use linux as GiGE router and have 6 NIC on it > Those days the NIC interrupt takes around 100% CPU but the system is 4G > memroy and 8 CPU. I can't see any error packet in this NIC interface too > > After I block the udp, the %CPU drops

Re: computer freezes, no obvious reason

2007-10-11 Thread Ryan Nowakowski
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 10:58:36AM -0400, Kaloyan M. Penev wrote: > Also because I had to install the fglrx driver from the radeon web page > (v 8.41.7), which for some reason requires libstdc++5, and everything else > requires libstdc++6 when I compile opengl applications I get a warning > that th

Re: PCIe Video and Open source 3D drivers

2007-10-11 Thread Orestes Leal
El Lun, 8 de Octubre de 2007, 5:21 pm, Wakko Warner escribió: > Kelly Clowers wrote: >> On 10/7/07, Wakko Warner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > Thanks. I saw the X800 listed, unfortunately, ATI makes both a PCIe >> and an >> > AGP 8x version of the card. Not sure which they used. If you have a

Trying to find 80wire ide extension cable in France

2007-10-11 Thread Nigel Henry
Sorry for posting this here. I've got one fixed drive, vertical on the front of the machine. the other drives are accessed using a 5 1/4 slot hard drive caddy. This is a carrier that fits in one of my 5 1/4 slots, and I have numerous harddrives in drawers that slot into the caddy. The problem I

Re: (mod-) ssl for apache 2.2.x

2007-10-11 Thread Michael Shuler
On 10/11/2007 02:30 PM, Robert Cates wrote: > Hi all, > > am I wrong - there's no (mod-) ssl package for the etch apache 2.2 > server? I can I get my apache 2.2 server ssl enabled? Or do I need to > install/use the apache 1.3 package for ssl support? The package is libapache-mod-ssl - install t

(mod-) ssl for apache 2.2.x

2007-10-11 Thread Robert Cates
Hi all, am I wrong - there's no (mod-) ssl package for the etch apache 2.2 server? I can I get my apache 2.2 server ssl enabled? Or do I need to install/use the apache 1.3 package for ssl support? Thanks for your help, Robert -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject o

Re: xfce window manager

2007-10-11 Thread Andrew Sackville-West
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 07:15:39PM +0100, Adam Hardy wrote: > Andrew Sackville-West on 10/10/07 23:09, wrote: >> killall xfwm4 && wmii >> ooh, that's ugly, but it sorta works. leaves the panels all over the >> place when you switch back. Its always fun to mess with a DTE by >> swapping out the wm f

Re: Regarding tar and split

2007-10-11 Thread Manon Metten
Hi Sean, You might consider using Lha. It does the same as tar and bzip2 together (although you can disable compression). It has a simple syntax. You can also view the contents of the archive and even extract one single file from it. Example (suppose I have a 'work' dir with a.o. the file 'abc' i

Re: xfce window manager

2007-10-11 Thread David Brodbeck
On Oct 11, 2007, at 11:15 AM, Adam Hardy wrote: Andrew Sackville-West on 10/10/07 23:09, wrote: killall xfwm4 && wmii ooh, that's ugly, but it sorta works. leaves the panels all over the place when you switch back. Its always fun to mess with a DTE by swapping out the wm for something complete

Re: HELP! can't become root

2007-10-11 Thread Andrew Sackville-West
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 01:16:27PM -0500, Jonathan Wilson wrote: > On Thursday 11 October 2007 13:04, Jonathan Wilson wrote: > > On Wednesday 10 October 2007 13:04, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > > > I seem to recall once I did a chown -R something and it followed the > > > /. and /.. links in the

Re: How to wifi with ipw3945 on Dell Vostro ???

2007-10-11 Thread Andrew Sackville-West
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 10:37:15AM -0500, Michael Shuler wrote: > On 10/11/2007 10:11 AM, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: [snipped wacky wireless crap] > > > > I'm planning to wipe that lappy and start over anyway (need to use > > encryption) so I'll start over from scratch on the wireless. If I ge

Re: debian kernel bugs / or is it grub?

2007-10-11 Thread Andrew Sackville-West
On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 12:01:01AM +0800, Richard wrote: > Andrew Sackville-West wrote: ... > > > whoops. I must have missed (and snipped) that. I assume the messages > > above are from the kernel itself? > > Yes, the message i quoted comes almost instantly after the grub menu > when the kernel t

Re: HELP! can't become root

2007-10-11 Thread Jonathan Wilson
On Thursday 11 October 2007 13:16, Jonathan Wilson wrote: > It does > indeed climb up one level - just one, I don't know why. > Well, I guess I do know why: because it's using ../ I'll crawl back under my rock now . . . JW -- -- System Administrator - Cedar Creek

Re: HELP! can't become root

2007-10-11 Thread Andrew Sackville-West
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 01:04:49PM -0500, Jonathan Wilson wrote: > On Wednesday 10 October 2007 13:04, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 05:25:17PM -0700, tom arnall wrote: > > > Well, I got a list of perm's for stuff in /dev (from a sarge system. I'm > > > on etch). There we

Re: HELP! can't become root

2007-10-11 Thread Jonathan Wilson
On Thursday 11 October 2007 13:04, Jonathan Wilson wrote: > On Wednesday 10 October 2007 13:04, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > > I seem to recall once I did a chown -R something and it followed the > > /. and /.. links in the directory so that it started walking up the > > directory tree. luckily I

Re: xfce window manager

2007-10-11 Thread Adam Hardy
Andrew Sackville-West on 10/10/07 23:09, wrote: killall xfwm4 && wmii ooh, that's ugly, but it sorta works. leaves the panels all over the place when you switch back. Its always fun to mess with a DTE by swapping out the wm for something completely unrelated. Its funny watching it try to figure

Re: Regarding tar and split

2007-10-11 Thread David Brodbeck
On Oct 11, 2007, at 5:01 AM, Sean Zimmermann wrote: If I ignored the indexing issue (since most of my work with tar is large, non-incremental backups where I typically restore the entire contents - it would be nice if there was indexing, but is not a huge problem), should I still use somethi

Re: HELP! can't become root

2007-10-11 Thread Jonathan Wilson
On Wednesday 10 October 2007 13:04, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 05:25:17PM -0700, tom arnall wrote: > > Well, I got a list of perm's for stuff in /dev (from a sarge system. I'm > > on etch). There were only two diff's: two sound devices. But there are > > lots of insane p

Re: texmaker bug?

2007-10-11 Thread Richard Lyons
On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 04:48:57PM -0500, Mumia W.. wrote: [...] > > I didn't even know what texmaker was until today. It's surprisingly unknown: people are always complaining about learning latex, but with texmaker you hardly need to. Kile is the same thing (originally built on it, I believe)

Re: good tool to recover scratched CD's/DVD's?

2007-10-11 Thread Richard Lyons
On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 02:34:25PM -0500, Russell L. Harris wrote: > There is a mechanical device which is able to restore a scratched CD > by polishing it with a mild abrasive. Perhaps surprisingly, I have often done this by hand. Choose a very fine grit -- the best in the UK is "Brasso", int

Re: How to wifi with ipw3945 on Dell Vostro ???

2007-10-11 Thread Joost Kraaijeveld
On Thu, 2007-10-11 at 10:37 -0500, Michael Shuler wrote: > On 10/11/2007 10:11 AM, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > > I've been watching for some action on this thread as I have the same > > chip giving me fits. It appears that I have to use the built-in keys > > to turn the radio off and then back o

Re: debian kernel bugs / or is it grub?

2007-10-11 Thread Richard
Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 12:50:54PM +0800, Ben Evenweg wrote: >> Andrew Sackville-West wrote: >>> On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 10:15:35AM +0800, Richard van der Veen wrote: Hi I am not sure how to send a bug report about this because it seems to be in severa

Re: Tool for document management

2007-10-11 Thread Richard Lyons
On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 01:31:57AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 21:31:32 -0400, Douglas A Tutty > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > > > Here's my personal letter template. I copy it to the correct file > > name, edit it, then latex it. The letter text itself is just plain >

Re: computer freezes, no obvious reason

2007-10-11 Thread Andrew Sackville-West
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 10:58:36AM -0400, Kaloyan M. Penev wrote: > Hi, > > I recently installed debian stable. Immediately after that I downloaded > and compiled myself the latest kernel version: 2.6.22.8. Since my machine > is quad core I enabled SMP and other things that seemed appropriate. The

Re: How to wifi with ipw3945 on Dell Vostro ???

2007-10-11 Thread Michael Shuler
On 10/11/2007 10:11 AM, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > I've been watching for some action on this thread as I have the same > chip giving me fits. It appears that I have to use the built-in keys > to turn the radio off and then back on to get it to actually wake up > and connect. Its been a little

Re: debian kernel bugs / or is it grub?

2007-10-11 Thread Andrew Sackville-West
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 12:50:54PM +0800, Ben Evenweg wrote: > Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 09, 2007 at 10:15:35AM +0800, Richard van der Veen wrote: > >> Hi > >> I am not sure how to send a bug report about this because it seems to > >> be in several different kernels from Debian.

Re: SSH Question

2007-10-11 Thread Andrew Sackville-West
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 05:22:25PM +1000, Alex Samad wrote: > try putty for windows no matter how much putty you apply, its still just windows! A signature.asc Description: Digital signature

computer freezes, no obvious reason

2007-10-11 Thread Kaloyan M. Penev
Hi, I recently installed debian stable. Immediately after that I downloaded and compiled myself the latest kernel version: 2.6.22.8. Since my machine is quad core I enabled SMP and other things that seemed appropriate. The system boots up and works almost fine, however I am experiencing the follow

Re: How to wifi with ipw3945 on Dell Vostro ???

2007-10-11 Thread Andrew Sackville-West
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 05:29:30AM -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote: > * Joost Kraaijeveld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007-10-10 19:43:48 +0200]: > > > The card is recognised by the software and it even works somehow (I can > > see all the wifi networks in my building using wifi-radar). But whatever > > I d

using kde applet from gnome

2007-10-11 Thread abdelkader belahcene
Hi, How to add to the bar a kde applet? I installed kmoon (kde moon applet), I am running gnome, how to activate it. thanks bela -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[OT] Porting Qt3 -> Qt4

2007-10-11 Thread Hugo Vanwoerkom
Hi, If you have a large app., not so simple! Big change: "...all painting must now be done from the paintEvent() function." So if your Qt3 code paints from all over the place you now have a logic problem. Anybody faced this? I got into it because Qt's opensource for M$ is not Qt3 but Qt4

Can you help about udp?

2007-10-11 Thread chloe K
Hi all I use linux as GiGE router and have 6 NIC on it Those days the NIC interrupt takes around 100% CPU but the system is 4G memroy and 8 CPU. I can't see any error packet in this NIC interface too After I block the udp, the %CPU drops. but the UDP only takes around 8M in general We use UDP

[ #CHI-25837-468]: Re: Thanks!

2007-10-11 Thread helpdesk
Thank you for contacting TattooFinder.com and Flash2xs.com. We have received your comments and we will respond to you as quickly as possible. Note that as we serve a global customer base our hours of operation are limited to daytime hours, Mountain Standard Time. Generally, e-mail is the best

Re: Regarding tar and split

2007-10-11 Thread Sean Zimmermann
Douglas A. Tutty porchlight.ca> writes: > Tar archive isn't designed for this, since its designed for sequential > devices. Have you considered using another archive format? Perhaps > iso? You can split and join iso files, mount them with loop mount, > compress, burn, whatever. > > Doug. If

Re: How to wifi with ipw3945 on Dell Vostro ???

2007-10-11 Thread Chris Ahlstrom
* Joost Kraaijeveld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007-10-10 19:43:48 +0200]: > The card is recognised by the software and it even works somehow (I can > see all the wifi networks in my building using wifi-radar). But whatever > I do I cannot get a (DHCP) ip address from my Zyxel AP which is using a > WE

Re: umask don't change

2007-10-11 Thread Florian Lindner
Am Mittwoch, 10. Oktober 2007 schrieb Douglas A. Tutty: > On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 09:03:37AM -0400, Roberto D'Oliveira wrote: > > 2007/10/10, Florian Lindner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > Hello, I have uncommented and modified to umask setting in > > > ~/.bash_profile to: > > > > > > umask 077 > > > >

Fixed : texmaker bug?

2007-10-11 Thread fabien
Update The root gets the same message. I actually miss a trick to monitor what's going on when I start the program. Do you mean "strace"? Using strace, I could find the error comes from the infos in the init files : Using brute force, that is replacing the content of /user/.config/xm1/tex

Re: Dell Vostro 1700 sound problem

2007-10-11 Thread Florian Kulzer
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 05:53:15 +0200, Joost Kraaijeveld wrote: > On Wed, 2007-10-10 at 23:18 +0200, Florian Kulzer wrote: > > cat /dev/sndstat > > asterix:~# cat /dev/sndstat > Sound Driver:3.8.1a-980706 (ALSA v1.0.14 emulation code) > Kernel: Linux asterix 2.6.22-2-amd64 #1 SMP Thu Aug 30 23:43

Re: Motherboard Recommendation

2007-10-11 Thread Bob
Kenward Vaughan wrote: On Tue, 2007-10-09 at 15:45 +0200, Dominique Dumont wrote: Bob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: MSI K9A Platinum http://products.amd.com/en-us/MotherboardDetail.aspx?id=28 I use this board with an AMD 3800 X2 . No problem. Ditto here. No issues, good bo

Re: SSH Question

2007-10-11 Thread Miguel J. Jiménez
Telly Williams escribió: On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 05:22:25PM +1000, Alex Samad wrote: try putty for windows Thank you. Actually, to be able to connect from a linux machine to a windows machine you also need a ssh server (well, the same goes for the inverse) that does not come prein

Re: SSH Question

2007-10-11 Thread Telly Williams
On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 05:22:25PM +1000, Alex Samad wrote: > try putty for windows > Thank you. -- Telly Williams "Knowledge Is Power" -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: SSH Question

2007-10-11 Thread Alex Samad
try putty for windows On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 01:20:52AM -0600, Telly Williams wrote: > Hi, > > I see some of you talking about SSHing into your computer from > another. What if the computer you're > using isn't Linux/Unix? I was thinking that you could reboot > that com

SSH Question

2007-10-11 Thread Telly Williams
Hi, I see some of you talking about SSHing into your computer from another. What if the computer you're using isn't Linux/Unix? I was thinking that you could reboot that computer and boot up Puppy using a USB drive, or should/can you do this through any sh