On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 15:15 +0100, Loïc Minier wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008, Ben Finney wrote:
> > Since the Social Contract promises Debian *won't* ship non-free
> > things, that's not an option compatible with the promises made by the
> > Debian project.
>
> I might not have said it clearly en
Loïc Minier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008, Ben Finney wrote:
> > Since the Social Contract promises Debian *won't* ship non-free
> > things, that's not an option compatible with the promises made by
> > the Debian project.
>
> I might not have said it clearly enough:
> - I
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 8:38 AM, Simon Richter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> At least, that's my understanding of some of the use cases presented
>> here: that even the vendors of those blobs routinely modify the binary
>> blob directly to generate a new version of it, much like
>> bit-mani
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008, Ben Finney wrote:
> Since the Social Contract promises Debian *won't* ship non-free
> things, that's not an option compatible with the promises made by the
> Debian project.
I might not have said it clearly enough:
- I agree the current DFSG and social contract imply we nee
Ben Finney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Loïc Minier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > Of course, producing a Debian including free firmwares would be
> > superior than producing a Debian which ships non-free firmwares,
> > but the actual option at hand is producing a Debian without the
> > f
Loïc Minier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Of course, producing a Debian including free firmwares would be
> superior than producing a Debian which ships non-free firmwares,
> but the actual option at hand is producing a Debian without the
> firmwares.
Since the Social Contract promises Debian
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008, Ben Finney wrote:
> > I ackowledge that the current requirements of the social contract
> > as it's worded and intended require us to ship the source code of
> > the lib/firmware blobs.
> Simply because anything that we ship as part of Debian must be
> DFSG-free.
Yes; we
Loïc Minier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008, Ben Finney wrote:
> > That means: free access to exactly the same form of the work that
> > the vendor might use to make modification to any part of the
> > operating system
>
> So you consider the bits of code which runs on the har
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008, Ben Finney wrote:
> The requirement for the contents of Debian to be free is not a new
> burden.
What's new here is the number of firmwares which one need to make a
computer useful and the consequence on the perimeter of the Debian
project.
> It's spelled out in t
Hi,
> At least, that's my understanding of some of the use cases presented
> here: that even the vendors of those blobs routinely modify the binary
> blob directly to generate a new version of it, much like
> bit-manipulating a machine-code executable and running it.
No, it's more a case of there
Neil Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> In the end, it comes down to "the preferred form for modification"
I am convinced that's the most useful place to draw the line, yes.
> and the reality that the preferred form *can* include binary code,
> machine code or any other data of a type that m
On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 22:51 +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> What's relatively new is the realisation that some of those parts
> (such as firmware) have a programmatic function but can, in some
> cases, have *no* better form for making modifications than the binary
> blob itself.
OK, to my eyes, this me
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 10:51:55PM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
[...]
> *without* access to any specific extra data, vendor-specific programs,
> or other non-free software.
I agree here, although, I wouldn't say the DFSG requires that source
code should be modifiable with software distributed in Debi
Loïc Minier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008, Jeff Carr wrote:
> > have little flash chips holding these bits all over in your
> > machine now. You just don't know it. And now, because someone is
> > giving you the luxury of actually loading them via software (with
> > gpl softwa
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