On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, peasth...@shaw.ca wrote:
> > ... not all that complexity has to be exposed by default.
>
> Yes, needless complexity in an algorithm reduces efficiency
> in execution. Needless complexity in an interface reduces
> efficiency in use.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/one-a
* From: Ben Hutchings
* Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 15:59:47 +0100
> For most people, a computer is just a tool.
You've hit the nail on the head. A personal computer system
should be an efficient tool.
> ... not all that complexity has to be exposed by default.
Yes, needless complexity
On 2011-04-06 18:26:45 +0300, Andrew O. Shadoura wrote:
> If you do `ifdown`, either manually or by unplugging the cable, the
> problem doesn't appear to exist. Calling ifupdown may be inserted into
> the suspend/resume scripts.
I wonder why this isn't done by default.
--
Vincent Lefèvre - Web:
Hello,
On Wed, 6 Apr 2011 13:40:43 +0200
Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> That's not sufficient, because if a DHCP client is still running (e.g.
> because the previous configuration used DHCP), one needs to kill it
> before using a fixed IP address (in eth-home).
If you do `ifdown`, either manually or
On Wed, Apr 06, 2011 at 02:11:35PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> On 2011-04-06 07:24:30 +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> > There are several hacks to do that (like guessnet or laptop-net), but I
> > don’t think this can work correctly in the general case with IPv4.
>
> FYI, I had used laptop-net
On 2011-04-06 07:24:30 +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> There are several hacks to do that (like guessnet or laptop-net), but I
> don’t think this can work correctly in the general case with IPv4.
FYI, I had used laptop-net in the past, but it has been removed
from Debian:
http://bugs.debian.or
Hi,
On 2011-04-05 20:37:39 +0300, Andrew O. Shadoura wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Tue, 5 Apr 2011 14:31:40 +0200
> Vincent Lefevre wrote:
>
> > [About the general problem of documentation]
> > The problem is to find the correct tools and the correct
> > documentation. For instance, imagine the averag
Le mardi 05 avril 2011 à 14:31 +0200, Vincent Lefevre a écrit :
> For instance, imagine the average user who wants for Ethernet (eth0),
> to do the following automatically (for a laptop):
> 1. use some fixed IP address if there's some peer 192.168.0.1
> with some given MAC address;
There a
#include
* Kelly Clowers [Mon, Apr 04 2011, 02:06:01PM]:
> On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 07:29, Sune Vuorela wrote:
> > I don't consider myself 'stupid user', but I haven't yet been able to
> > put my laptop on wpa network without the use of network manager.
>
> I never did get nm or wicd to work. Only
Hi,
Am Dienstag, den 05.04.2011, 17:48 + schrieb Philipp Kern:
> On 2011-04-05, Andrew O. Shadoura wrote:
> > Of course, man guessnet. Just few lines.
>
> Last time I looked guessnet was orphaned, though.
but still very useful and allowing me to have a great network setup
that, once set up,
On 2011-04-05, Andrew O. Shadoura wrote:
> Of course, man guessnet. Just few lines.
Last time I looked guessnet was orphaned, though.
Kind regards
Philipp Kern
--
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Hello,
On Tue, 5 Apr 2011 14:31:40 +0200
Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> [About the general problem of documentation]
> The problem is to find the correct tools and the correct
> documentation. For instance, imagine the average user who wants for
> Ethernet (eth0), to do the following automatically (fo
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 02:31:40PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> On 2011-04-04 17:31:18 +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 05:35:10PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> > > It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should
> > > have to read dozens
On 2011-04-04 17:31:18 +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 05:35:10PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> > It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should
> > have to read dozens of pages of documentation before attempting to do
> > anything.
> >
> >
On 04/05/2011 05:21 AM, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 12:09:42PM +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 09:10:47AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
>>> ]] Stanislav Maslovski
>>> d-i doesn't use ifupdown, it uses netcfg.
>>
>> Hm, okay, I was pretty sure J
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 12:09:42PM +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 09:10:47AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> > ]] Stanislav Maslovski
> >
> > | AFAICT, the main concerns with the current ifupdown-based installation
> > | process is that its suport of wireless networks
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 09:10:47AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> ]] Stanislav Maslovski
>
> | AFAICT, the main concerns with the current ifupdown-based installation
> | process is that its suport of wireless networks is very limited: only
> | WEP is supported, and there are problems with lost c
In other news for Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 08:15:55AM +0200, Bernhard R. Link has
been seen typing:
> But what many people[1] want is that you can make it work if you read some
> dozen pages of documentation.
Personally, what I want is a setup that does not drop all active network
interfaces during
]] Stanislav Maslovski
| AFAICT, the main concerns with the current ifupdown-based installation
| process is that its suport of wireless networks is very limited: only
| WEP is supported, and there are problems with lost connections. I am
| pretty sure that these problems may be addressed without
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 07:08:19AM +0100, Brett Parker wrote:
> On 05 Apr 00:55, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 10:03:12PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> > > What I do not understand is WHY the Debian Project can not do an install
> > > in two steps. I mean installing the
On 05 Apr 00:55, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 10:03:12PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> > What I do not understand is WHY the Debian Project can not do an install
> > in two steps. I mean installing the bare base using "ifupdown" and if
> > the user choose the Desktop-T
* Josselin Mouette [110404 14:05]:
> It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should
> have to read dozens of pages of documentation before attempting to do
> anything.
You mix two things up here: Almost noone demands a system that is only
configurable after reading a doz
]] Kelly Clowers
Hi,
| I never did get nm or wicd to work. Only with ifupdown+wpa_supplicant
| was I able to make WiFi work. This was with an ordinary home router
| with WPA2 PSK and an Atheros PCIe NIC
Without commenting on the whole ifupdown-vs-nm by default issue, I don't
see any bugs filed
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 9:20 PM, Stanislav Maslovski
wrote:
[...]
>> Also note that there are NM plugins that enable NM to understand
>> /etc/network/interfaces and the Fedora/RHEL counterparts. This means
>> that if a server has NM enabled and an administrator wants to
>> configure networking manu
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 07:39:23PM -0300, Fernando Lemos wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre
> wrote:
> [...]
> > This said, I don't think NM can be the magic bullet to fix everything.
> > Even RedHat while shipping NetworkManager on servers last I checked,
> > still r
Russ Allbery writes ("Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes!"):
> That said, for simple server network configuration patterns, ifupdown just
> works. I think a lot of the push-back that's happening in this thread is
> that replacing ifupdown for the simple but very c
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre
wrote:
[...]
> This said, I don't think NM can be the magic bullet to fix everything.
> Even RedHat while shipping NetworkManager on servers last I checked,
> still relies on their simpler command-line setup for interfaces. So
> should we. De
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Stefan Lippers-Hollmann wrote:
[...]
>
> Besides not using netlink internally, ifupdown's biggest drawback in my
> personal opinion is not reacting dynamically to changing connection
> methods, like switching from wlan0 to eth0, if an ethernet cable gets
> temporar
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 07:29, Sune Vuorela wrote:
>> I do not think that reading documentation before trying to achieve
>> something is that elitist. And in the case of wpa_supplicant, it is
>> definitely not dozens of pages. Basically, it is just
>>
>> man interfaces
>> man wpa_supplicant.conf
>>
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 10:03:12PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> What I do not understand is WHY the Debian Project can not do an install
> in two steps. I mean installing the bare base using "ifupdown" and if
> the user choose the Desktop-Task replace it with NM.
AFAICT, the main concerns w
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 12:30:24PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
[skipped]
> "It is a profoundly erroneous truism, repeated by all copy-books and by
> eminent people when they are making speeches, that we should cultivate the
> habit of thinking of what we are doing. The precise opposite is the case.
Hello Russ Allbery,
Am 2011-04-04 12:30:24, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> That said, of course for a server build one can just remove Network
> Manager and install ifupdown and go on with life. Changing the default
> doesn't mean forcing it on everyone. But I think that's much of where the
>
Stanislav Maslovski writes:
> I considered using wicd some time ago, but gave up after reading
> information from its FAQ:
> http://wicd.sourceforge.net/moinmoin/FAQ
The main advantage of wicd from my perspective is that it's a simple and
straightforward solution for configuring a single wirele
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 01:57:10PM -0500, Romain Beauxis wrote:
> 2011/4/4 Stanislav Maslovski :
> >> I am not happy that network manager bypasses ifconfig to do this; I
> >> would have much preferred a daemon that could properly integrate with
> >> the existing infrastructure we had.
> >
> > Exact
"Dmitry E. Oboukhov" writes:
> JM> It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should
> JM> have to read dozens of pages of documentation before attempting to do
> JM> anything.
> JM> I’m happy that not all of us share this elitist view of software. I
> JM> thought we were
2011/4/4 Stanislav Maslovski :
>> I am not happy that network manager bypasses ifconfig to do this; I
>> would have much preferred a daemon that could properly integrate with
>> the existing infrastructure we had.
>
> Exactly. There is ifplugd that implements some of the functionality
> that is req
]] Ben Armstrong
(followup to -curiosa, please)
[...]
| That stuff, unlike the nipple, is all learned.
>From talking with friends of mine who have babies, that skill is also
very much learned.
--
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are
--
To UNSUBS
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
[...]
> It does have system-global config file. But the settings are not
> expected to be there. By default the settings are expected to be in the
> user directory (has this changed since 0.8?). So I won't easily find it
> when I want to e.g. ch
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 06:35:19PM +0100, Jon Dowland wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 06:52:05PM +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
> > Sould not there be an option to select between the old network configuration
> > and NM?
>
> Nowhere have I seen it argued that NM will be the *only* networking s
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 07:33:31PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 10:39 -0300, Ben Armstrong a écrit :
> > But the average laptop user really does have a hard time with the
> > status quo. Something needs to change in the next release.
>
> I think squeeze already does a
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 06:52:05PM +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
> Sould not there be an option to select between the old network configuration
> and NM?
Nowhere have I seen it argued that NM will be the *only* networking solution
for Debian going forward, merely the *default* one. In other w
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 06:06:28PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 16:19 +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov a écrit :
> > User MUST study each OS he uses.
>
> No, he must not. The OS must adapt to the user’s needs, not the
> opposite.
>
> > If he doesn't want he will be
> > for
Hi
On Monday 04 April 2011, Sune Vuorela wrote:
> > I do not think that reading documentation before trying to achieve
> > something is that elitist. And in the case of wpa_supplicant, it is
> > definitely not dozens of pages. Basically, it is just
> >
> > man interfaces
> > man wpa_supplicant.con
Ben Armstrong writes:
> once they manage to make it work, I've *still* seen cafe connections
> fail on my lovingly hand-crafted wpa_cli + wpa_supplicant setup that
> succeed when I reboot to a Squeeze GNOME live image with NM. I to this
> day have not been able to figure out why.
You might have h
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 04:19:30PM +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov wrote:
> >> Well, actually configuring a wireless network with wpa_supplicant and
> >> ifupdown is not hard at all and does not require too much time, _if_ a
> >> user has developed a good habbit of reading documentation first.
>
> JM> I
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 07:33:31PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 10:39 -0300, Ben Armstrong a écrit :
> > But the average laptop user really does have a hard time with the
> > status quo. Something needs to change in the next release.
>
> I think squeeze already does a
> I do not think that reading documentation before trying to achieve
> something is that elitist. And in the case of wpa_supplicant, it is
> definitely not dozens of pages. Basically, it is just
>
> man interfaces
> man wpa_supplicant.conf
> zless /usr/share/doc/wpasupplicant/README.Debian.gz
I do
Hi,
Josselin Mouette (04/04/2011):
> I think squeeze already does a lot better, but there is still work
> to do, especially with the installation process.
>
> On my personal wishlist for wheezy is d-i actually calling NM behind
> the scenes to configure the network, instead of ifupdown. I’ll
> d
On 04/04/2011 11:03 AM, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> I think squeeze already does a lot better, but there is still work to
> do, especially with the installation process.
>
> On my personal wishlist for wheezy is d-i actually calling NM behind the
> scenes to configure the network, instead of ifupdow
Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 10:39 -0300, Ben Armstrong a écrit :
> But the average laptop user really does have a hard time with the
> status quo. Something needs to change in the next release.
I think squeeze already does a lot better, but there is still work to
do, especially with the installation
On 04/04/2011 10:31 AM, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
> I do not think that reading documentation before trying to achieve
> something is that elitist. And in the case of wpa_supplicant, it is
> definitely not dozens of pages. Basically, it is just
>
> man interfaces
> man wpa_supplicant.conf
> zless
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 05:35:10PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 11:55 +0400, Stanislav Maslovski a écrit :
> > Well, actually configuring a wireless network with wpa_supplicant and
> > ifupdown is not hard at all and does not require too much time, _if_ a
> > user has
On 04/04/2011 10:06 AM, Dmitry E. Oboukhov wrote:
> There is only one thing that can be used without reading a manual. It
> is a breast. All the other devices (and things, substances, etc)
> required to be studied.
While this paraphrase of a familiar quote may be applicable when taken
in context (
>> User MUST study each OS he uses.
JM> No, he must not. The OS must adapt to the user’s needs, not the
JM> opposite.
Create OS that can even be used by stupid and only stupid will use
that.
>> If he doesn't want he will be
>> forced to pay the other people who will tune his (user's) system.
JM
On ma, 2011-04-04 at 16:19 +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov wrote:
> User MUST study each OS he uses. If he doesn't want he will be
> forced to pay the other people who will tune his (user's) system.
I dispute your assertion that our users must study the operating system
we build for them.
I not only di
Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 16:19 +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov a écrit :
> User MUST study each OS he uses.
No, he must not. The OS must adapt to the user’s needs, not the
opposite.
> If he doesn't want he will be
> forced to pay the other people who will tune his (user's) system.
A lot of users act
>> Well, actually configuring a wireless network with wpa_supplicant and
>> ifupdown is not hard at all and does not require too much time, _if_ a
>> user has developed a good habbit of reading documentation first.
JM> It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should
JM> ha
Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 11:55 +0400, Stanislav Maslovski a écrit :
> Well, actually configuring a wireless network with wpa_supplicant and
> ifupdown is not hard at all and does not require too much time, _if_ a
> user has developed a good habbit of reading documentation first.
It seems to be a
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 12:00:01AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 10:52:33AM +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov wrote:
> Yes, a user can do anything with ifconfig if his time has no value. I am
> happily using network manager on my laptop, because unlike ifconfig it's
> easy to conf
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