On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 08:27:59 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 11:25:47PM +, Felipe Sateler wrote:
>> Another way to look at it is the number of maintainers, as recorded in
>> the Packages and Sources files. I've done a bit of scripting and came
>> with these numbers:
On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 02:53:43AM +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote:
> Then again,... I wonder why Ubuntu exists, if they allegedly anyway want
> their changes into Debian.
> And still sounds like a fork in a respect that forks usually don't
> change everything.
>
> But I mean that discussion
Hi,
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 08:10:54PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> But they're not as good at the things that large pools of
> volunteers are good at, like maintaining lots of packages that are of
> interest to small groups of people.
I'm following the example of others by cherry picking from Ru
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 11:25:47PM +, Felipe Sateler wrote:
> Another way to look at it is the number of maintainers, as recorded in
> the Packages and Sources files. I've done a bit of scripting and came
> with these numbers:
Did you look only at Maintainer, or also at Uploaders? In the for
On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 19:18:07 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> As I agree with Christian that the most important factor is our ability
> to attract contributors, I've tried to gather data about the number of
> people that decide to join Debian per year. The easiest data to found
> was those about
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 10:33:36PM +0200, Didier Raboud wrote:
> Isn't that what "LSB" is meant to provide?
I guess it is, but as far as I understand, it kind of fails on the point
"is actually widely adopted by the community". Unfortunately.
> Besides that is suffers from another type of fragm
Le dimanche, 21 octobre 2012 19.33:28, Enrico Zini a écrit :
> On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 01:26:56PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> > generalisation of application stores. How can we attract the creative
> > people who entered the field of software development and distribution on
> > Android or iOS ?
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 07:33:28PM +0200, Enrico Zini wrote:
> We won't attract the people you're looking at, until we can actually
> come up with a standard, cross-distro toolchain that:
>
> - is actually useful to build games, UIs, whatever you want people to
>build;
> - provides an API[1]
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 01:26:56PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> generalisation of application stores. How can we attract the creative people
> who entered the field of software development and distribution on Android or
> iOS ?
> Worse, because of the fragmentation of the « Linux » landscape, i
On Friday 19 October 2012 00:53:43 Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote:
> Another reason could be, that people have problems with the BTS.
> Don't get me wrong, I personally like it a lot... and I wouldn't want to
> have e.g. launchpad (if at all,... I'm quite a bugzilla fan)... but
> especially for end
Le Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 09:40:12AM +0200, Christian PERRIER a écrit :
>
> But, still, yes, I feel we are in danger in some way. That may sound alarming
> (death of Debian predicted, film at 11), but, really, getting new
> blood is important for usif we don't want to shrink into a club of
> old
On Thu, 2012-10-18 at 20:10 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> I'm not seeing any signs that Ubuntu actually wants to take over what
> Debian is the best at, which is maintaining a very broad range of packages
> at high quality. Notice the number of folks who start doing Debian
> packaging because they
On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 09:40:12AM +0200, Christian PERRIER wrote:
> I will take this last sentence from Russ' mail to give out my own
> feeling about these issues.
Thanks for this in-depth view on your feeling on this matter. I've been
following with interest your blog posts on the "decline" of D
Quoting Thomas Preud'homme (robo...@debian.org):
> > This is sometimes hidden by the incredible work and investment of
> > several people in the project (yes, that's probably mean whoever is
> > reading this).
>
> I don't think it's mean to recognize the amazing work some people do. At
> least
I will fill your bugreports for $1.99 per bug :-)
2012/10/19 Peter Samuelson :
>
> [Kelly Clowers]
>> But I basically never report bugs. I have used Sid for years, and in
>> fact I often don't notice bugs in my personal workflow (maybe if I
>> can think of myself as a user? I notice end-user-impac
[Kelly Clowers]
> But I basically never report bugs. I have used Sid for years, and in
> fact I often don't notice bugs in my personal workflow (maybe if I
> can think of myself as a user? I notice end-user-impacting bugs in
> other areas). If someone comes over and sees me working the might
> say
On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 12:40 AM, Christian PERRIER wrote:
>
> For sure, this kind of "decline" is not that visible. We still have
> new contributors, we still manage to do releases, we still have an
> ever growing number of packages. But, we have less bug reports. We have
> partly abandoned packa
On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 03:04:45AM +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote:
> On Wed, 2012-10-17 at 17:43 +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > Ah, well, I think you misunderstood me here. What I meant is that ubuntu
> > is gaining ground on things like Windows and MacOS. I didn't mean to
> > refer to no
Le vendredi 19 octobre 2012 09:40:12, Christian PERRIER a écrit :
Greetings Christian,
First, let me take advantage of this mail to thank you for your tireless work
on localization.
>
> Nowadays, would someone bet a coin that the same is happening? I would
> not. In my daily job, I see student
Quoting Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org):
> distribution that make it more popular. But, unlike commercial
> distributions, we don't *have* to be popular to succeed. We have a much
> broader range of successful outcomes than a business that has to make
> money.
I will take this last sentence fro
Christoph Anton Mitterer writes:
> And still sounds like a fork in a respect that forks usually don't
> change everything.
I think of a fork as a permanent division of the code base, with possibly
some importing of code back and forth but with major development happening
independently. While th
On Wed, 2012-10-17 at 17:43 +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > Making opensource more open for proprietary stuff is sometimes simply
> > necessary... but this may ultimately also become a big threat for the
> > free software world, namely then when that non-free stuff plays such an
> > important rol
On Mon, 2012-10-15 at 08:11 +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> Do you remember the sorry state of, for instance hotplugging of devices
> and the utterly poor integration with desktops back in 2004 when Ubuntu
> first started? It was a _huge_ step forward.
I didn't say everything was Ubuntu made or ma
On Sun, 2012-10-14 at 22:01 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Except it's not, because that's not what Ubuntu does. Most of the
> packages are imported into Ubuntu unmodified. Among those that are
> modified, most of the modifications are exactly the minor changes that
> Debian makes to upstream, and
On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 07:53:01 + (UTC), Sune Vuorela
wrote:
>On 2012-10-17, Svante Signell wrote:
>> Even some bugs _with_ patches are treated the same way or kept open and
>> never acted on. Shouldn't the number of open bugs be decreasing with
>> time, not being constant or increasing as is th
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 03:25:21AM +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote:
> On Sat, 2012-10-13 at 20:35 +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
[...]
> > If anything, Ubuntu is
> > gaining ground on non-free software. You can't be angry about that.
> That's a tricky question... ask yourself what RMS would pr
On 2012-10-17, Svante Signell wrote:
> Even some bugs _with_ patches are treated the same way or kept open and
> never acted on. Shouldn't the number of open bugs be decreasing with
> time, not being constant or increasing as is the case for some packages?
in many cases, the amount of open bug re
On Wed, 2012-10-17 at 08:58 +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 02:46:18 +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer
> wrote:
> >First declining bug numbers are not necessarily a problem, because it
> >could just mean that we're getting better and better, or that more and
> >more upstream issues ar
On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 02:46:18 +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer
wrote:
>First declining bug numbers are not necessarily a problem, because it
>could just mean that we're getting better and better, or that more and
>more upstream issues are reported upstream (which would be a good thing
>IMHO), or tha
]] Christoph Anton Mitterer
[...]
> In the case of *buntu... well to be honest I don't really see a reason
> unless someone wanted to create a company behind his distro, which
> wasn't possible with Debian.
Do you remember the sorry state of, for instance hotplugging of devices
and the utterly
Christoph Anton Mitterer writes:
> When Debian takes software from upstreams, it's majorly a case of making
> a collection (of course with adaptions).
> When a derivative take Debian, it's - compared to single software - more
> like forking it.
Except it's not, because that's not what Ubuntu do
On Sat, 2012-10-13 at 20:35 +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> No. However, Debian is an upstream to many other distributions, just as
> upstream developers are to us.
Don't think that's true.
When Debian takes software from upstreams, it's majorly a case of making
a collection (of course with adapti
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 10:13:51PM +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote:
> On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 13:40 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> > I wonder: did upstream developers start to worry when the number of bugs
> > report they received *directly* started to decrease, due to Debian
> > distributi
Le Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 11:47:30AM +0300, Riku Voipio a écrit :
>
> While people want LTS, they still want latest version of various apps
> they use (browser, new gcc and python for some inhouse development, etc),
> as well as support for all the new hardware they buy. Solving these two
> goals at
On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 13:40 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> I wonder: did upstream developers start to worry when the number of bugs
> report they received *directly* started to decrease, due to Debian
> distributing their software?
Well but that's a different situation isn't it? I mean Debian t
On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 21:45 +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
> IMHO, supporting an OS release for only 3 years is not long enough.
I think that such very-long-term security support is quite an illusion.
Of course, problems found get then back-ported,... but software changes
so rapidly while usually
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 09:45:58PM +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
> Marco Nenciarini writes:
> > I've seen recently several company I'm working with getting away from
> > Debian in favor of Ubuntu because they have a LTS version. However I
> > don't know if this is a general trend.
> I can confir
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 3:45 AM, Simon Josefsson wrote:
> I can confirm the trend for a couple of organisations. The primary
> reason that I identified was the retirement of security support for
> Lenny and that Lenny packages are removed from many Debian mirrors which
> made it difficult to use
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:57:24PM +0200, Vincent Bernat wrote:
> ❦ 11 octobre 2012 20:26 CEST, Steve Langasek :
> >> Quite a few upstreams thinks Debian are working contrary to their design
> >> and their goals and are actively hindering adoption of their software.
> >> If you're interested in
Am Freitag, den 12.10.2012, 00:00 +0200 schrieb Vincent Bernat:
> ❦ 11 octobre 2012 22:33 CEST, Benjamin Drung :
>
> >> > I can confirm the trend for a couple of organisations. The primary
> >> > reason that I identified was the retirement of security support for
> >> > Lenny and that Lenny pack
❦ 11 octobre 2012 22:33 CEST, Benjamin Drung :
>> > I can confirm the trend for a couple of organisations. The primary
>> > reason that I identified was the retirement of security support for
>> > Lenny and that Lenny packages are removed from many Debian mirrors which
>> > made it difficult to
❦ 11 octobre 2012 20:26 CEST, Steve Langasek :
>> Quite a few upstreams thinks Debian are working contrary to their design
>> and their goals and are actively hindering adoption of their software.
>> If you're interested in examples, just take a look at how rubygems was
>> handled in Debian unti
Simon Josefsson writes:
> Marco Nenciarini writes:
>> I've seen recently several company I'm working with getting away from
>> Debian in favor of Ubuntu because they have a LTS version. However I
>> don't know if this is a general trend.
> I can confirm the trend for a couple of organisations.
Am Donnerstag, den 11.10.2012, 16:14 -0400 schrieb Paul Tagliamonte:
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 09:45:58PM +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
> > Marco Nenciarini writes:
> >
> > > Il giorno gio, 11/10/2012 alle 02.46 +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer ha
> > > scritto:
> > >>
> > >> On the other hand, s
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 09:45:58PM +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
> Marco Nenciarini writes:
>
> > Il giorno gio, 11/10/2012 alle 02.46 +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer ha
> > scritto:
> >>
> >> On the other hand, some worries are there that this could imply some
> >> decline in Debian itself.
> >
Marco Nenciarini writes:
> Il giorno gio, 11/10/2012 alle 02.46 +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer ha
> scritto:
>>
>> On the other hand, some worries are there that this could imply some
>> decline in Debian itself.
>> Well I still think Debian is the best distro out there for most (if not
>> all
]] Steve Langasek
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 05:29:51PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> > This might be your impression. It does not at all match my impression.
>
> > Quite a few upstreams thinks Debian are working contrary to their
> > design and their goals and are actively hindering adoption
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 05:29:51PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> This might be your impression. It does not at all match my impression.
> Quite a few upstreams thinks Debian are working contrary to their design
> and their goals and are actively hindering adoption of their software.
> If you're
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Le 11/10/2012 17:29, Tollef Fog Heen a écrit :
> ]] Thibaut Paumard
>
>> Users who get software through the Debian packages are still
>> 100% users of said software.
>
> This might be your impression. It does not at all match my
> impression.
>
>
]] Thibaut Paumard
> Users who get software through the Debian packages are still 100%
> users of said software.
This might be your impression. It does not at all match my impression.
Quite a few upstreams thinks Debian are working contrary to their design
and their goals and are actively hind
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Le 11/10/2012 13:40, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit :
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:51:50AM +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer
> wrote:
>> On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 09:15 +0200, Mathieu Malaterre wrote:
>>> I believe the script is incorrect. It does not count ub
Il giorno gio, 11/10/2012 alle 02.46 +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer ha
scritto:
>
> On the other hand, some worries are there that this could imply some
> decline in Debian itself.
> Well I still think Debian is the best distro out there for most (if not
> all cases), even though I'd like to see
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:51:50AM +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote:
> On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 09:15 +0200, Mathieu Malaterre wrote:
> > I believe the script is incorrect. It does not count ubuntu bugs that
> > gets fixed in debian, without ever being referenced in debian BTS...
> Well but it's
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 5:51 PM, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote:
> Well but it's up to interpretation, whether that wouldn't be a worrying
> sign, too. I mean that bugs are fixed rather via Ubuntu.
Where bugs are reported doesn't matter, as long as they get fixed.
Personally I look at the bug tra
On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 09:15 +0200, Mathieu Malaterre wrote:
> I believe the script is incorrect. It does not count ubuntu bugs that
> gets fixed in debian, without ever being referenced in debian BTS...
Well but it's up to interpretation, whether that wouldn't be a worrying
sign, too. I mean that b
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 2:46 AM, Christoph Anton Mitterer
wrote:
> Some days ago Christian reported[0] about #69 with the feeling that
> bug report numbers in Debian were declining, which Don’s post[1] later
> seemingly confirmed.
I believe the script is incorrect. It does not count ubuntu bu
Hi.
Some days ago Christian reported[0] about #69 with the feeling that
bug report numbers in Debian were declining, which Don’s post[1] later
seemingly confirmed.
I wondered myself whether this is a problem for Debian and if so, what
we can do against it?
First declining bug numbers are no
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