[Tutor] Fwd: Re: If loop conditions

[Alan Gauld]

Forwarding to tutor list. Please use Reply All or Reply List
when responding to tutor mails.


 Forwarded Message 
Subject:Re: [Tutor] If loop conditions
Date:   Wed, 2 Mar 2016 07:31:57 +0530
From:   D.V.N.Sarma డి.వి.ఎన్.శర్మ 
To: Alan Gauld 



The

newList = []

statement must be above the for loop just after the function definition.
regards,
Sarma.


On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 10:22 PM, Alan Gauld  wrote:
> On 01/03/16 16:28, Dimitar Ivanov wrote:
>> First time using this mailing list so please excuse me in advance if this
>> mail is not structured properly.
>
> No worries, you've done a pretty good job of telling us
> what we need to know.
>
>> In the following exercise, Google requires you to look up words from a list
>> and count how many of the words are longer or equal to 2 characters where
>> the first and last letter match.
>>
>> I've been trying to assign string slices to variables and then use those
>> variables inside the following if statement:
>
> You probably don't need slices here. They are cool features
> but not always the right thing to use.
>
>> def match_ends(words):
>> +  for word in words:
>> +length=len(word)
>> +  newList=[]
>> +  firstChar=word[0:]
>> +  lastChar=word[:-1]
>
> You only want the first and last character, not a slice.
> So just use indexes.
>
>   firstChar=word[0]
>   lastChar=word[-1]
>
>> +if [ length >= 2 and firstChar == lastChar ]:
>
> You don;t need the brackets. And in fact in this case
> you are creating a list containing the bollean result
> of your test. A  non empty list (regardless of the
> value inside) is always going to be "true"...
>
> Just write it as:
>
> if length >= 2 and (firstChar == lastChar):
>
> The () just make it clear that its
>
> a and (b == c)
>
> rather than
>
> (a and b) == c
>
>> +newList.append(word)
>> +else:
>> +  break
>
> break exits the loop, you don't want that, instead you want
> to go back to the start of the loop to process the next word.
> The command for that is
>
> continue
>
>> +  newListCount=len(newList)
>> +  return newListCount
>
>> Eventually I looked up the solution since I tracked down my problem to how
>> I made my if statement and, of course, it turned out to be much simpler
>> than usual.
>>
>> +  if len(word) >= 2 and word[0] == word[-1]:
>>
>> I tried putting brackets around the conditions and that broke the result
>> again so I came to wonder what's the difference between statements written
>> without brackets and those within brackets (such as my original code block)?
>
> It all depends on the type of brackets.
> Using square brackets as you did creates a list with a single value
>
> like: [42]  or in your case, either [True] or [False]
>
> The if statement(not loop) then treats any non empty list as True.
>
> But if you had used () instead of [] then it would probably
> work as you expected.
>
> if (len(word) >= 2 and word[0] == word[-1]):
>
> But you don;t really need them in Python (unlike C or Java)
>
> You can however make the intention clearer for your readers
> by grouping sub tests with params like:
>
> if (length >= 2) and (firstChar == lastChar):
>
> HTH
> --
> Alan G
> Author of the Learn to Program web site
> http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
> http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
> Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos
>
>
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Re: [Tutor] recursivity and lists

[Gaston]

Thanks a lot for your help. This was the problem. I fixed it this way :

def linear_merge(list1, list2):
  if list1==[]: return list2
  elif list2==[]: return list1
  elif list1[-1]>list2[-1]:
a=list1.pop()
linear_merge(list1,list2).append(a)
return linear_merge(list1,list2)
  else:
a=list2.pop()
linear_merge(list1,list2).append(a)
return linear_merge(list1,list2)

I use append and then return the result, as list.append is not a query.

Thank you !

On 03/01/2016 09:40 PM, Danny Yoo wrote:


Also, as a quick note: Python list append is not functional: it 
mutates rather than returns a useful return value.  You may need to 
revisit the parts in the code where it assumes a different behavior 
from functional append.


On Mar 1, 2016 12:36 PM, "Danny Yoo" > wrote:



>
> Problem is that python complains that he cannot know the type of
the result of this function (list). In C++ I would specify the
type, but from what I understood, Python should not need this.
What did I miss ?

Can you copy the exact stack trace of the error? It'll help:
you've interpreted what the error means, which is useful, but it's
also important to show the unvarnished output too.  It will let us
look and make our own interpretations.

Good luck!



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[Tutor] Recommendations for best tool to write/run Python

[Lisa Hasler Waters]

Hello everyone,

I am new to Python, as are my middle school students. We are using Python
3.5.1 IDLE to write and run our (simple) code. However, this tool does not
seem to be the best way to write longer code or to be able to re-edit code
that has been saved/closed/reopened.

Eventually, we hope to build some projects that we can "use" and share with
others.

Could you please recommend the best Python tools for writing and running
our code for the long term? Also, we are hoping to find free tools!

Thanks so very much!

Lisa

PS We have tried to use Aptana Studio 3 but it is not easy to work in.

-- 
Lisa Waters, PhD
Technology Integration
Flint Hill School
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Re: [Tutor] Recommendations for best tool to write/run Python

[Ben Finney]

Lisa Hasler Waters  writes:

> Could you please recommend the best Python tools for writing and
> running our code for the long term?

How much of a learning curve are you willing to accept? The best tools
for the long term are inevitably those which require some investment of
time to learn.

-- 
 \ “Unix is an operating system, OS/2 is half an operating system, |
  `\Windows is a shell, and DOS is a boot partition virus.” —Peter |
_o__)H. Coffin |
Ben Finney

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Re: [Tutor] Recommendations for best tool to write/run Python

[Lisa Hasler Waters]

Thanks so much Ben and Jon for your input.

Ben, in terms of time for learning curve, I suppose we do have some
limitations as we are up against school schedules. However, if it is
something I could learn in a reasonable time that I could then more quickly
walk my students through then I'd be up for the challenge!

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 1:58 PM, Ben Finney 
wrote:

> Lisa Hasler Waters  writes:
>
> > Could you please recommend the best Python tools for writing and
> > running our code for the long term?
>
> How much of a learning curve are you willing to accept? The best tools
> for the long term are inevitably those which require some investment of
> time to learn.
>
> --
>  \ “Unix is an operating system, OS/2 is half an operating system, |
>   `\Windows is a shell, and DOS is a boot partition virus.” —Peter |
> _o__)H. Coffin |
> Ben Finney
>
> ___
> Tutor maillist  -  Tutor@python.org
> To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
>



-- 
Lisa Waters, PhD
Technology Integration
Flint Hill School
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Re: [Tutor] Recommendations for best tool to write/run Python

[Ben Finney]

Lisa Hasler Waters  writes:

> Ben, in terms of time for learning curve, I suppose we do have some
> limitations as we are up against school schedules. However, if it is
> something I could learn in a reasonable time that I could then more
> quickly walk my students through then I'd be up for the challenge!

In that case, my recommendation is to learn a good programmer's editor,
and let your students gain exposure to that.

Emacs and Vim are the unchallenged masters here; community-owned,
free-software, cross-platform, mature and highly flexible with support
for a huge range of editing tasks. Learning either of those will reward
the student with a tool they can use broadly throughout whatever
computing career they choose.

They aren't a small investment, though. That “mature” comes at the cost
of an entire ecosystem that evolved in decades past; concepts and
commands are idiosynratic in each of them. It is highly profitable for
any programmer to learn at least one of Emacs or Vim to competence, but
it may be too much to confront a middle-school student in limited class
time. Maybe let the class know they exist, at least.

Short of those, I'd still recommend a community-owned, free-software,
highly flexible programmer's editor. If you're on GNU+Linux, use the
Kate or GEdit editors; they integrate very nicely with the default
desktop environment and are well-maintained broadly applicable text
editors. GEdit in particular has good Python support.

I would recommend staying away from any language-specific IDE. Teaching
its idiosyncracies will still be a large time investment, but will not
be worth it IMO because the tool is so limited in scope. Better to teach
a powerfuly general-purpose programmer's editor, and use the operating
system's facilities for managing files and processes.

-- 
 \“Humanity has advanced, when it has advanced, not because it |
  `\ has been sober, responsible, and cautious, but because it has |
_o__)been playful, rebellious, and immature.” —Tom Robbins |
Ben Finney

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Re: [Tutor] Recommendations for best tool to write/run Python

[Ben Finney]

Ben Finney  writes:

> Short of [the heavyweights Vim and Emacs], I'd still recommend a
> community-owned, free-software, highly flexible programmer's editor.
> If you're on GNU+Linux, use the Kate or GEdit editors; they integrate
> very nicely with the default desktop environment and are
> well-maintained broadly applicable text editors. GEdit in particular
> has good Python support.

In particular, when teaching students, please steer them away from
proprietary software, regardless of price.

Non-free software such as Sublime Text, PyCharms, Wing IDE, and the
like, sometimes have a zero-dollar license, but your students should not
be encouraged to use tools they are forbidden to learn about and share.

In education, please use free-software tools – that is, software with
license to inspect, modify, and share the changes – so your students can
learn at any level their interest takes them.

-- 
 \   “What I resent is that the range of your vision should be the |
  `\ limit of my action.” —Henry James |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney

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Re: [Tutor] Recommendations for best tool to write/run Python

[Ben Finney]

Ben Finney  writes:

> In that case, my recommendation is to learn a good programmer's
> editor, and let your students gain exposure to that.
>
> Emacs and Vim are the unchallenged masters here […]
>
> They aren't a small investment, though. […] it may be too much to
> confront a middle-school student in limited class time. Maybe let the
> class know they exist, at least.
>
> Short of those, I'd still recommend a community-owned, free-software,
> highly flexible programmer's editor.

I have never used Atom https://atom.io/>, but it meets the criteria
I would recommend. It is free software, community owned, has support for
a broad variety of contemporary editing tasks, is cross-platform.

On top of that it has advantages over Vim and Emacs: its terminology
matches what today's computer users expect; it is written in and
extensible with a commonly-used programming language; it UI is designed
to match contemporary user expectations.

The few reservations I have – it is not yet mature enough to have
support for pretty much every editing tasks; it does not appear to have
a text console mode (for use across an SSH link); it is presently
dominated by a single corporation – should not stop you from presenting
it to your students as a fine programmer's editor for their future.

-- 
 \  “Not using Microsoft products is like being a non-smoker 40 or |
  `\ 50 years ago: You can choose not to smoke, yourself, but it's |
_o__)   hard to avoid second-hand smoke.” —Michael Tiemann |
Ben Finney

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Re: [Tutor] Recommendations for best tool to write/run Python

[Aneeque Khan]

You can go for JetBrain`s PyCharms IDE (community edition), its free and 
available for Windows, MacOS and Linux.

https://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm/download/ 

For learning purposes community edition will serve all the needs but if you 
want to do some advanced and professional work go for paid Professional version.

Regards,
Aneeque

-Original Message-
From: Tutor [mailto:tutor-bounces+aneeque.khan=ericsson@python.org] On 
Behalf Of Lisa Hasler Waters
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 12:56 AM
To: Ben Finney
Cc: tutor@python.org
Subject: Re: [Tutor] Recommendations for best tool to write/run Python

Thanks so much Ben and Jon for your input.

Ben, in terms of time for learning curve, I suppose we do have some limitations 
as we are up against school schedules. However, if it is something I could 
learn in a reasonable time that I could then more quickly walk my students 
through then I'd be up for the challenge!

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 1:58 PM, Ben Finney 
wrote:

> Lisa Hasler Waters  writes:
>
> > Could you please recommend the best Python tools for writing and 
> > running our code for the long term?
>
> How much of a learning curve are you willing to accept? The best tools 
> for the long term are inevitably those which require some investment 
> of time to learn.
>
> --
>  \ “Unix is an operating system, OS/2 is half an operating system, |
>   `\Windows is a shell, and DOS is a boot partition virus.” —Peter |
> _o__)H. Coffin |
> Ben Finney
>
> ___
> Tutor maillist  -  Tutor@python.org
> To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
>



--
Lisa Waters, PhD
Technology Integration
Flint Hill School
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Re: [Tutor] Recommendations for best tool to write/run Python

[Matt Williams]

I teach an introductory programming course to medical students (and a few
doctors).

I would look at Sublime Text 2 if one Windows/ Mac. Has a 'nag' screen to
remind you to buy, but feels simple enough when you start it.

M

On Wed, 2 Mar 2016 19:50 Ben Finney,  wrote:

> Lisa Hasler Waters  writes:
>
> > Ben, in terms of time for learning curve, I suppose we do have some
> > limitations as we are up against school schedules. However, if it is
> > something I could learn in a reasonable time that I could then more
> > quickly walk my students through then I'd be up for the challenge!
>
> In that case, my recommendation is to learn a good programmer's editor,
> and let your students gain exposure to that.
>
> Emacs and Vim are the unchallenged masters here; community-owned,
> free-software, cross-platform, mature and highly flexible with support
> for a huge range of editing tasks. Learning either of those will reward
> the student with a tool they can use broadly throughout whatever
> computing career they choose.
>
> They aren't a small investment, though. That “mature” comes at the cost
> of an entire ecosystem that evolved in decades past; concepts and
> commands are idiosynratic in each of them. It is highly profitable for
> any programmer to learn at least one of Emacs or Vim to competence, but
> it may be too much to confront a middle-school student in limited class
> time. Maybe let the class know they exist, at least.
>
> Short of those, I'd still recommend a community-owned, free-software,
> highly flexible programmer's editor. If you're on GNU+Linux, use the
> Kate or GEdit editors; they integrate very nicely with the default
> desktop environment and are well-maintained broadly applicable text
> editors. GEdit in particular has good Python support.
>
> I would recommend staying away from any language-specific IDE. Teaching
> its idiosyncracies will still be a large time investment, but will not
> be worth it IMO because the tool is so limited in scope. Better to teach
> a powerfuly general-purpose programmer's editor, and use the operating
> system's facilities for managing files and processes.
>
> --
>  \“Humanity has advanced, when it has advanced, not because it |
>   `\ has been sober, responsible, and cautious, but because it has |
> _o__)been playful, rebellious, and immature.” —Tom Robbins |
> Ben Finney
>
> ___
> Tutor maillist  -  Tutor@python.org
> To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
>
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Re: [Tutor] Recommendations for best tool to write/run Python

[Dave P]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 1:26 PM, Lisa Hasler Waters
 wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I am new to Python, as are my middle school students. We are using Python
> 3.5.1 IDLE to write and run our (simple) code. However, this tool does not
> seem to be the best way to write longer code or to be able to re-edit code
> that has been saved/closed/reopened.
>
> Eventually, we hope to build some projects that we can "use" and share with
> others.
>
> Could you please recommend the best Python tools for writing and running
> our code for the long term? Also, we are hoping to find free tools!
>
> Thanks so very much!
>
> Lisa
>
> PS We have tried to use Aptana Studio 3 but it is not easy to work in.
>

I'm a beginner, and I've learned a lot from Visual Studio 2015
(Community Edition) and a third party extension called Python Tools
for Visual Studio (PTVS).  It's similar to running PyDev in Eclipse or
LiClipse.

Good luck!
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Re: [Tutor] Recommendations for best tool to write/run Python

[TJ Nelson]

Check out https://www.continuum.io/downloads

Anaconda has a IDE called Spyder this may be a good solution.

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 1:58 PM, Ben Finney 
wrote:

> Lisa Hasler Waters  writes:
>
> > Could you please recommend the best Python tools for writing and
> > running our code for the long term?
>
> How much of a learning curve are you willing to accept? The best tools
> for the long term are inevitably those which require some investment of
> time to learn.
>
> --
>  \ “Unix is an operating system, OS/2 is half an operating system, |
>   `\Windows is a shell, and DOS is a boot partition virus.” —Peter |
> _o__)H. Coffin |
> Ben Finney
>
> ___
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> To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
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Re: [Tutor] Recommendations for best tool to write/run Python

[toothpik]

On Wed, Mar 02, 2016 at 01:26:11PM -0500, Lisa Hasler Waters wrote:
> Hello everyone,

> I am new to Python, as are my middle school students. We are using Python
> 3.5.1 IDLE to write and run our (simple) code. However, this tool does not
> seem to be the best way to write longer code or to be able to re-edit code
> that has been saved/closed/reopened.

> Eventually, we hope to build some projects that we can "use" and share with
> others.

> Could you please recommend the best Python tools for writing and running
> our code for the long term? Also, we are hoping to find free tools!



you can do no better than vim for writing, and any given command line
for running



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Re: [Tutor] Recommendations for best tool to write/run Python

[Matt Williams]

Can someone recommend an open-source editor for all 3 platforms?

M

On Wed, 2 Mar 2016 21:37 Ben Finney,  wrote:

> Ben Finney  writes:
>
> > Short of [the heavyweights Vim and Emacs], I'd still recommend a
> > community-owned, free-software, highly flexible programmer's editor.
> > If you're on GNU+Linux, use the Kate or GEdit editors; they integrate
> > very nicely with the default desktop environment and are
> > well-maintained broadly applicable text editors. GEdit in particular
> > has good Python support.
>
> In particular, when teaching students, please steer them away from
> proprietary software, regardless of price.
>
> Non-free software such as Sublime Text, PyCharms, Wing IDE, and the
> like, sometimes have a zero-dollar license, but your students should not
> be encouraged to use tools they are forbidden to learn about and share.
>
> In education, please use free-software tools – that is, software with
> license to inspect, modify, and share the changes – so your students can
> learn at any level their interest takes them.
>
> --
>  \   “What I resent is that the range of your vision should be the |
>   `\ limit of my action.” —Henry James |
> _o__)  |
> Ben Finney
>
> ___
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> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
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Re: [Tutor] Recommendations for best tool to write/run Python

[Alan Gauld]

On 02/03/16 18:26, Lisa Hasler Waters wrote:

> I am new to Python, as are my middle school students. We are using Python
> 3.5.1 IDLE to write and run our (simple) code. However, this tool does not
> seem to be the best way to write longer code or to be able to re-edit code
> that has been saved/closed/reopened.

While IDLE is far from perfect it's not really that bad, especially
for beginners. Can you be more specific about what you don't like
about it? That way we can point you to something more appropriate.
There is also IdleX which addresses most of the common complaints
 - like adding tabbed editors, code context windows, folding
of code etc.

Its very easy to suggest "professional tools" like vim/emacs/Eclipse
or Netbeans (all of which i use) but they all have a steep
learning curve and are only needed if you are working on very
large projects with many files(like 10+ say). Most Python projects
have less than that.

So what exactly do you find to be the issues with IDLE?
Then we can find the simplest tool that overcomes those issues.

> Could you please recommend the best Python tools for writing and running
> our code for the long term? Also, we are hoping to find free tools!

Free tools are no problem there are dozens. But they all have
their own philosophy of what makes a good tool, and you need
to find the one that matches you. Do you want:

1) Fastest possible text editing - probably vim?
2) Most customisable environment - emacs or Eclipse?
3) Most automation of coding - Netbeans or Eclipse?
4) Best project management - Ecliose, Nertbeans, Visual studio?
5) Best debugger/version control/GUI designer/ etc...?
6) Simplest to learn - IDLE/Pythonwin/Kate?
7) Multi platform - not Visual studio or Pythonwin...

It all depends on your priorities.

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos


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Re: [Tutor] Recommendations for best tool to write/run Python

[Ken G.]

On 03/02/2016 01:26 PM, Lisa Hasler Waters wrote:

Hello everyone,

I am new to Python, as are my middle school students. We are using Python
3.5.1 IDLE to write and run our (simple) code. However, this tool does not
seem to be the best way to write longer code or to be able to re-edit code
that has been saved/closed/reopened.

Eventually, we hope to build some projects that we can "use" and share with
others.

Could you please recommend the best Python tools for writing and running
our code for the long term? Also, we are hoping to find free tools!

Thanks so very much!

Lisa

PS We have tried to use Aptana Studio 3 but it is not easy to work in.


I have been using Geany as my Python work station in my Ubuntu 14.04.4 
desktop operating system.


Ken




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Re: [Tutor] Recommendations for best tool to write/run Python

[Alan Gauld]

On 02/03/16 21:40, Matt Williams wrote:
> Can someone recommend an open-source editor for all 3 platforms?

Several have already been mentioned.

vim and emacs are the standards.
Geany is popular on Linux but also available on Windows/MacOSX

Jedit hasn't had a shout yet but does work cross platform.
Fairly lightweight.

Eclipse and Netbeans are the heavyweight options - very
powerful but need big machines to run them - the more RAM
the better. Both have Python plugins.

And there are many more
-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos


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Re: [Tutor] Recommendations for best tool to write/run Python

[Alex Kleider]

I've not noticed anyone mention vimtutor which might be helpful.

On a Mac or Linux system, from the command line simply type "vimtutor"
and with in 1/2 to 1 hour you'll know enough to use vim _and_ be in a
position to decide if it's the editor for you.  I've been told vim can
also be had on the Redmond OS but I've no experience there.
Alex


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