Re: Abandoning Python

2011-05-22 Thread John Lee
Bill Allen  gmail.com> writes:
 
> You have ideas, a text editor, and a computer - best get to coding.
> What's stopping you?  You largely want Python, with modifications.
> Join the development team and help implement those changes, or fork
> your own flavor and do what you wish.  Right?  You imagine it's an
> easy task, so get after it.
[...]

Is it possible that my calling it an easy task was a joke?

Honestly, I'd thought it safe with that one to leave out the smiley -- but then 
I've been away from newsgroups for quite a while!


John


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Re: Abandoning Python

2011-05-22 Thread John Lee
Dan Stromberg  gmail.com> writes:

> On Sat, May 21, 2011 at 8:49 AM, John J Lee  pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> I still like Python after using it for over a decade, but there are
> things I don't like.
> What are your favourite up-and-coming languages of the moment?
> Here's my wishlist (not really in any order):
>  * A widely used standard for (optional) interface declaration -- or
>    something better.  I want it to be easier to know what interface an
>    object has when reading code, and which objects provide that
>    interface.
> 
> 
> I do miss this sometimes, but pylint takes things far enough for me. 

Pylint?  Does it provide some kind of guessed-at-type that has been integrated 
with IDEs?

[...]
> And here I thought Python had pretty good functional programming facilities.
> What do you miss?AFAIK, DBC in terms of "if condition: raise AssertionError"
> (or assert).What _is_ the "etc"?
[...more of the same...]

You tell me: I'm here to fish for interesting pointers rather than to 
evangelize.  I mention those specific things as examples because I know they 
have often been both the focus of research (well, perhaps not integration of 
queries), and pain points in software development.  It's not plausible to me 
that there is not room for major improvement, but in any case the only way to 
know is to try.


>  * Better refactoring tools, better code analysis tools (lint, search,
>    etc.).
> 
> I find pylint excellent.  My idea of a refactoring tool is vim's n.n.n.,  but 
have you looked at PyCharm? 

In this thread, I'm asking about the views of Python programmers on languages 
other than Python.  Thanks for the link, though (does PyCharm provide reliable 
refactoring tools that are useable from emacs?).


>  * An even larger user base, contributing more and better free and
>    commercial software.
> 
> Gee, you want a scripting language with a larger userbase? 

I don't want a scripting language, necessarily.


John


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Re: List of WindowsError error codes and meanings

2011-05-22 Thread John Lee
Genstein  invalid.invalid> writes:

> 
> > Andrew Berg gmail.com>  writes:
> > Since Python 2.5, the errno attribute maps the Windows error to error
> > codes that match the attributes of module errno.
> 
> Good point, I completely misread that. At least the Windows error code 
> is still available as the winerror attribute.
> 
> As an aside - call me stupid, but I don't quite follow the purpose of 
> that errno mapping. Surely if the error number can be mapped 
> successfully then the error isn't Windows specific and an OSError should 
> logically be thrown instead? And if it can't be mapped successfully then 
> errno will never be valid so the mapping is pointless?

Since WindowsError is a subclass of OSError, .errno has to be there (and it 
must 
contain the UNIXy error code).  You could then ask why it's a subclass in the 
first place.  I think part of the answer is that the docs are wrong -- 
presumably actual usage is that WindowsError is raised when a Windows API call 
is made that *may* result in an exception that has no corresponding errno value 
("presumably" because I'm writing on Linux & sourceforge is too slow for me 
today to grab pywin32).  In other words, code that raises WindowsError doesn't 
try to test the error code so that it can raise OSError instead some of the 
time.  I don't think there would be any benefit in doing that, and it would 
have 
the disadvantage that with those calls, you'd have to deal with a mixture of 
Windows and UNIXy error codes.

The presence of .errno, aside from being required (to satisfy LSP), does mean 
you don't have to deal with the Windows codes if you're only interested in 
cases 
covered by module errno.


John


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Re: Abandoning Python

2011-05-22 Thread John Lee
Stefan Behnel  behnel.de> writes:

> 
> John J Lee, 22.05.2011 17:58:
> > Daniel Kluev writes:
> >> Also, most of these complaints could be solved by using correct python
> >> dialect for particular task - RPython, Cython and so on.
> >
> > Different topic.
> 
> Why?

The intended focus was "things other than Python".  RPython and Cython are 
languages other than Python, but I regard them as part of the Python, er, 
ecosystem.  They have advantages and drawbacks that a lot of us are already 
familiar with (even though in your position I imagine you notice the 
misconceptions more than the correct ones).  The thought behind my question was 
to get Pythonista's opinions about things outside of that.


John


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Re: Abandoning Python

2011-05-22 Thread John Lee
Dan Stromberg  gmail.com> writes:
[...]
> Pylint does type inferencing - I find it very valuable on large projects, and
> even some not-so-large projects.I doubt Pylint's been integrated into any
> IDE's, 
[...]

That's interesting, thanks.  I see this is a different pylint than the old 
logilab pylint.  Unfortunate choice of name, since it makes it hard to find IDE 
integration work that's already done.


> But PyCharm probably has refactoring.  For a bolt-on to vim or
> emacs, you might look at "Rope".

TBH, I'm not interested in Python refactoring tools until everybody starts 
shouting that they're reliable and useful (because it seems like a hard problem 
to solve, so I guess most implementations will be more trouble than they're 
worth).


John


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Re: Abandoning Python

2011-05-22 Thread John Lee
Ed Keith  yahoo.com> writes:

> 
> Have you looked at Falcon (http://www.falconpl.org/)? It seems to have a lot
> of what you are looking for.

I'm more interested in other people's opinions than my own "looking for"s.

What *should* I be looking for (other than Python itself)?  What's interesting, 
widely applicable, and new(ish)?

Falcon fails my personal book-by-its-cover test.  There are too many languages
to do without that test, unfortunately.


John


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Re: Abandoning Python

2011-05-22 Thread John Lee
John Lee  pobox.com> writes:
[...]
> That's interesting, thanks.  I see this is a different pylint than the old 
> logilab pylint.  Unfortunate choice of name, since it makes it hard to find
> IDE integration work that's already done.

Hmm, I see the last release was in 2003 :-(


John


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