Re: Top-posting &c. (was Re: [ANNC] pybotwar-0.8)

[Bob Martin]

in 679182 20120821 181439 Dennis Lee Bieber  wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 08:07:33 +0200, Alex Strickland 
>declaimed the following in gmane.comp.python.general:
>
>> On 2012/08/17 12:42 AM, Madison May wrote:
>>
>> > As a lurker, I agree completely with Chris's sentiments.
>>
>> I too, but I'd prefer something top-posted than have to skip through 38
>> pages of quoted e-mail to get to a (generally) 1 liner at the bottom.
>
>Doesn't help me though... Agent shows quoted material as blue, fresh
>text as black.
>
>I tend to not see a one-liner at the top (since it is next to the
>attribution line) and if the rest of the page is all blue text I hit
>page down... and down, down, down... looking for black text... Then end
>up going "Wha', where's the new stuff?" and having to scroll back up to
>find a one-liner cuddling up with the attribution line.

Yep, and the only solution is for everyone to top-post.
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Re: Article on the future of Python

[Bob Martin]

in 681910 20120927 131113 Devin Jeanpierre  wrote:
>On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:13 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 09:15:00 +0100, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> And a response:
>>
>> http://data.geek.nz/python-is-doing-just-fine
>
>Summary of that article:
>
>"Sure, you have all these legitimate concerns, but look, cake!"

Quote : "This piece argues that Python is an easy-to-learn 
language that where you can be almost immediately productive in."
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Re: RE: Unpaking Tuple

[Bob Martin]

in 682592 20121008 232126 "Prasad, Ramit"  wrote:
>Thomas Bach wrote:=0D=0A> Hi there,=0D=0A> =0D=0A> On Sat, Oct 06, 2012 at =
>03:08:38PM +, Steven D'Aprano wrote:=0D=0A> >=0D=0A> > my_tuple =3D my_=
>tuple[:4]=0D=0A> > a,b,c,d =3D my_tuple if len(my_tuple) =3D=3D 4 else (my_=
>tuple + (None,)*4)[:4]=0D=0A> >=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Are you sure this works as y=
>ou expect? I just stumbled over the following:=0D=0A> =0D=0A> $ python=0D=
>=0A> Python 3=2E2=2E3 (default, Jun 25 2012, 23:10:56)=0D=0A> [GCC 4=2E7=2E=
>1] on linux2=0D=0A> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for mo=
>re information=2E=0D=0A> >>> split =3D ['foo', 'bar']=0D=0A> >>> head, tail=
>=3D split if len(split) =3D=3D 2 else split[0], None=0D=0A> >>> head=0D=0A=
>> ['foo', 'bar']=0D=0A> >>> tail=0D=0A> >>>=0D=0A> =0D=0A> I don't get it! =
>Could someone help me, please? Why is head not 'foo'=0D=0A> and tail not 'b=
>ar'?=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Regards,=0D=0A>Thomas=0D=0A> --=0D=0A=0D=0AI think yo=
>u just need to wrap the else in parenthesis so the=0D=0Aelse clause is trea=
>ted as a tuple=2E Without the parenthesis =0D=0AI believe it is grouping th=
>e code like this=2E=0D=0A=0D=0Ahead, tail =3D (split if len(split) =3D=3D 2=
>else split[0] ), None=0D=0A=0D=0AYou want:=0D=0Ahead, tail =3D split if le=
>n(split) =3D=3D 2 else (split[0], None )=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0ARamit=0D=0AThis e=
>mail is confidential and subject to important disclaimers and=0D=0Aconditio=
>ns including on offers for the purchase or sale of=0D=0Asecurities, accurac=
>y and completeness of information, viruses,=0D=0Aconfidentiality, legal pri=
>vilege, and legal entity disclaimers,=0D=0Aavailable at http://www=2Ejpmorg=
>an=2Ecom/pages/disclosures/email=2E

How does one unpack this post?  ;-)
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Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

[Bob Martin]

in 684220 20121102 093654 Jamie Paul Griffin  wrote:
>/ ru...@yahoo.com wrote on Thu  1.Nov'12 at 15:08:26 -0700 /
>
>> On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
>> > Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of
>> > UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems
>> > should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and
>> > Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news
>> > reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a
>> > good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I
>> > can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now.
>
>> Are you saying that this group is only for "serious" programmers?
>
>I don't see where my comments suggested that this group is only for serious 
>programmers. I simply believe that the UNIX platform, in whatever form, is 
>better placed and designed for all sorts of computing and engineering 
>projects. The history of UNIX speaks for itself. Many Universities that offer 
>respected and credible science based degree programmes, namely engineering and 
>computing programmes, strongly encourage students to become competent with 
>UNIX systems. Windows in my opinion is really for those who use the internet 
>on a casual basis or in a commercial environment where its staff are not 
>necessarily computer literate and therefore need a platform that they can use 
>which doesn't require them to learn more complex techniques and protocols. 
>But, having said that, I'm not against Windows at all. I use it frequently and 
>enjoy using it most of the time.
>
>> "serious" is also a matter of opinion.  I have some serious
>> programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that
>> serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie
>> languages like Python, but should be developing their skills
>> with serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc.
>
>That is a narrow minded approach. different languages serve different purposes 
>and it's down to the developer to use which language she needs to achieve what 
>it is they've set out to do. Sometimes, basic shell scripts can be extremely 
>powerful for certain tasks; other needs will require something different. I 
>certainly wouldn't describe Python as a "script-kiddie" language. It's 
>extremely powerful and modern. So there ;-P lol

Real programmers (can) write in assembler.
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Re: datetime module and timezone

[Bob Martin]

in 671891 20120210 212545 Olive  wrote:
>In the datetime module, it has support for a notion of timezone but is
>it possible to use one of the available timezone (I am on Linux). Linux
>has a notion of timezone (in my distribution, they are stored
>in /usr/share/zoneinfo). I would like to be able 1) to know the current
>timezone and 2) to be able to use the timezone available on the system.
>How can I do that?

For 1) just type "date" on the command line.
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Re: [OT] Free software versus software idea patents

[Bob Martin]

in 654905 20110408 171055 Ethan Furman  wrote:
>Westley Mart�nez wrote:
>> On Fri, 2011-04-08 at 01:41 -0500, harrismh777 wrote:
>>>
>>> Freedom isn't free... you have to fight for it... always.
>>
>> Why should a business listen to you? You're not gonna buy any software
>> anyways.
>>
>
>From a thread a few months back I can say there are a couple companies
>with posters on this list that are successful in supporting *and
>selling* open-source software.

IBM fits that description ...
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Re: Linux/Windows GUI programming: GUI-fy a CLI using pyInstaller

[Bob Martin]

in 788357 20180105 132921 Kevin Walzer  wrote:
>On 1/1/18 11:45 AM, X. wrote:
>> Ulli Horlacher:
>>> I have to transfer a python 2.7 CLI programm into one with a (simple) GUI.
>>> The program must run on Linux and Windows and must be compilable with
>>> pyinstall, because I have to ship a standalone windows.exe
>>> Any kind of installer is not acceptable.
>>>
>>> Reading https://github.com/pyinstaller/pyinstaller/wiki/Supported-Packages
>>> supported GUI packages are PyGTK, PyQt4, PyQt5, wxPython
>>> I have tested tkinter by myself and it works, too.
>>> I do not like GTK and Qt, because they are too complex.
>>>
>>> I want to do VERY simple things and I prefer a simple GUI toolkit :-)
>>
>>
>> me too !
>>
>
>Try easygui:
>
>https://pypi.python.org/pypi/easygui

Looks like Zenity.
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Re: The sqlite3 timestamp conversion between unixepoch and localtime

[Bob Martin]

On 2 Sep 2021 at 20:25:27, Alan Gauld  wrote:
> On 02/09/2021 20:11, MRAB wrote:
>
>>> In one of them (I can't recall which is which) they change on the 4th
>>> weekend of October/March in the other they change on the last weekend.
>>>
>>>
>> In the EU (and UK) it's the last Sunday in March/October.
>>
>> In the US it's second Sunday in March and the first Sunday in November.
>>
>> I know which one I find easier to remember!
>
> Interesting. I remember it as closer than that. The bugs we found were
> due to differences in the DST settings of the BIOS in the PCs. (They
> were deliberately all sourced from DELL but the EU PCs had a slightly
> different BIOS).
>
> The differences you cite should have thrown up issues every year.
> I must see if I can find my old log books...
>

ISTR that the USA changes were the same as the EU until a few years ago.

I remember thinking at the time it changed "why would they do that?"

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Re: walrus with a twist :+

[Bob Martin]

On 28 Oct 2021 at 18:52:26, "Avi Gross"  wrote:
>
> Ages ago, IBM used a different encoding than ASCII called EBCDIC (Extended
> Binary Coded Decimal Interchange Code ) which let them use all 8 bits and
> thus add additional symbols. =B1  =A6  =AC

IBM started using EBCDIC with System 360 and it is still used on mainframes.

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Re: Raw Data from Website

[Bob Martin]

in 764257 20160823 081439 Steven D'Aprano 
 wrote:
>On Tuesday 23 August 2016 10:28, adam.j.k...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am hoping someone is able to help me.
>>
>> Is there a way to pull as much raw data from a website as possible. The
>> webpage that I am looking for is as follows:
>>
>http://www.homepriceguide.com.au/Research/ResearchSeeFullList.aspx?LocationType=LGA&State=QLD&LgaID=
>632
>>
>> The main variable that is important is the "632" at the end, by adjusting
>> this it changes the postcodes. Each postcode contains a large amount of data.
>> Is there a way this all able to be exported into an excel document?
>
>Ideally, the web site itself will offer an Excel download option. If it
>doesn't, you may be able to screen-scrape the data yourself, but:
>
>(1) it may be against the terms of service of the website;
>(2) it may be considered unethical or possibly even copyright
>infringement or (worst case) even illegal;
>(3) especially if you're thinking of selling the data;
>(4) at the very least, unless you take care not to abuse the service,
>it may be rude and the website may even block your access.
>
>There are many tutorials and examples of "screen scraping" or "web scraping" on
>the internet -- try reading them. It's not something I personally have any
>experience with, but I expect that the process goes something like this:
>
>- connect to the website;
>- download the particular page you want;
>- grab the data that you care about;
>- remove HTML tags and extract just the bits needed;
>- write them to a CSV file.

wget does the hard part.
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Re: Lawrence D'Oliveiro

[Bob Martin]

in 765690 20160930 181552 Ethan Furman  wrote:
>Lawrence D'Oliveiro is banned from Python List until the new year.
>
>If his posts show up somewhere else (e.g. Usenet), please ignore them.  If you 
>must respond to him p
>lease trim out his text so the rest of us don't have to deal with him.
>
>--
>Python List Moderators

Why can't you block "PEDOFILO"?
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Re: Lawrence D'Oliveiro

[Bob Martin]

in 765736 20161001 072941 Paul Rubin  wrote:
>Chris Angelico  writes:
>>> Why can't you block "PEDOFILO"?
>> I've no idea who you're talking about
>
>That's the weird Italian spam that the newsgroup has been getting for a
>while.  I've been wondering for a while if anyone knows what the story
>is, i.e. why it's on comp.lang.python but not on other newsgroups that
>I've noticed.

It's in several of the groups that I follow.
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Re: Call a shell command from Python

[Bob Martin]

in 767198 20161104 142132 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn  wrote:
>Ben Finney wrote:
>
>> Note that ‘sudo’ is specifically designed to be invoked interactively,
>
>Nonsense.
>
>> seeking to verify that the current user has credentials to run the
>> command.
>
>NOPASSWD is not the default in sudoers(5),

It is on the Raspberry Pi

 but conclude from that what you
>concluded is a bit far-fetched, to say the least.
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Re: Guido? Where are you?

[Bob Martin]

in 767657 20161121 041134 Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn  wrote:
>Tristan B. Kildaire wrote:
>
>> Is Guido active on this newsgroup.
>
>That is not even a question.
>
>> Sorry for the off-topic ness.
>
>There is no excuse for (such) stupidity.

Stop posting then.

>
>
>
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Re: How coding in Python is bad for you

[Bob Martin]

in 770207 20170124 005601 Chris Angelico  wrote:

>REXX has even less structure than Python - it doesn't even have
>functions, just labels, so you can actually have two functions that
>share a common tail. And yes, you can abuse that horrendously to
>create unreadable code. Is REXX a bad language because of that? No.
>You can use structure badly, and you can use freedom badly.

Of course Rexx has functions!
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Re: How coding in Python is bad for you

[Bob Martin]

in 770220 20170124 070853 Chris Angelico  wrote:
>On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Bob Martin  wrote:
>> in 770207 20170124 005601 Chris Angelico  wrote:
>>
>>>REXX has even less structure than Python - it doesn't even have
>>>functions, just labels, so you can actually have two functions that
>>>share a common tail. And yes, you can abuse that horrendously to
>>>create unreadable code. Is REXX a bad language because of that? No.
>>>You can use structure badly, and you can use freedom badly.
>>
>> Of course Rexx has functions!
>
>Built-ins, yes, but when you define your own, it's by giving a label.
>It isn't a function until it's called as a function.

Just because the word "function" isn't in the header doesn't change matters.
The word "procedure" can appear in the header, but it can be called as a
procedure or a function. 
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Re: RE: What are your opinions on .NET Core vs Python?

[Bob Martin]

in 770457 20170131 011814 "Joseph L. Casale"  wrote:
>> C# hardly seems any better than Java to me as far as a language goes.
>
>Which sounds pretty good to me, they are both high performance, mature
>and rich languages.
>
>> Being forced into working with classes even when they are not
>> appropriate is jarring.
>
>And 100% irrelevant, it doesn't prevent you from doing anything you
>otherwise could without.
>
>> Because everything is forced into a class, one
>> often ends up with very long classes in C#, spanning more than one file!
>
>Sorry, sounds like you need to learn SOLID, none of my classes
>have ever taken this form.
>
>>  Makes the code much harder to follow from a human point of view. After
>> working in C# I very much appreciate Python's explicit self requirement
>> for accessing local instance variables.
>
>So, prefix them with "this." and they will look the same?

Please include the identity of people you are quoting.
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Re: Issue with python365.chm on window 7

[Bob Martin]

in 793268 20180423 223830 "Brian Gibbemeyer"  wrote:
>From:   Brian Gibbemeyer/Detroit/IBM
>To: python-list@python.org, d...@python.org
>Date:   04/23/2018 03:35 PM
>Subject:Issue with python365.chm on window 7
>
>
>Not sure which email this should go to.
>
>But I downloaded .chm version of the Python guide and found that it is not =
>
>working in windows 7
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Thank you,
>
>Brian Gibbemeyer
>Sr Software Engineer
>Watson Health - Value Based Care
>
>
>Phone: 1-7349133594 | Mobile: 1-7347258319
>E-mail: bgibb...@us.ibm.com
>
>
>100 Phoenix Dr
>Ann Arbor, MI 48108-2202
>United States

Senior Software Engineer?
Seriously?
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Re: Meaning of abbreviated terms

[Bob Martin]

in 793605 20180511 044309 T Berger  wrote:
>On Saturday, May 5, 2018 at 6:45:46 PM UTC-4, MRAB wrote:
>> On 2018-05-05 17:57, T Berger wrote:
>> > What does the "p" in "plist" stand for?
>> > Is there a python glossary that spells out the meanings of abbreviated 
>> > terms?
>> >
>> "plist" is "property list". It's listed in the Python documentation.
>
>Thanks for the answer. Missed it till now.

In IBM-speak it was parameter list.
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Re: Meaning of abbreviated terms

[Bob Martin]

in 793617 20180511 072806 Steven D'Aprano 
 wrote:
>On Fri, 11 May 2018 07:20:36 +0000, Bob Martin wrote:
>
>> in 793605 20180511 044309 T Berger  wrote:
>>>On Saturday, May 5, 2018 at 6:45:46 PM UTC-4, MRAB wrote:
>>>> On 2018-05-05 17:57, T Berger wrote:
>>>> > What does the "p" in "plist" stand for? Is there a python glossary
>>>> > that spells out the meanings of abbreviated terms?
>>>> >
>>>> "plist" is "property list". It's listed in the Python documentation.
>>>
>>>Thanks for the answer. Missed it till now.
>>
>> In IBM-speak it was parameter list.
>
>
>
>But that's not where plists came from, was it? As I understand it, the
>plist data format was invented by Apple, and they called it a property
>list.

How old is Apple?
I was using plist for parameter list in OS/360 in 1965.
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Re: Guido van Rossum resigns as Python leader

[Bob Martin]

in 796624 20180714 064331 Gregory Ewing  wrote:
>Larry Martell wrote:
>> And while we're talking about the Dutch, why is the country called
>> Holland, but then also The Netherlands, but the people are Dutch?
>
>And Germany is called Deutchland?

The real question is why do English speakers refer to Deutschland as Germany.
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Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated

[Bob Martin]

in 758117 20160416 053809 Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>Until now, PEP 8 has recommended that multi-line expressions should break
>*after* infix operators:
>
>
>result = (this_value *
>some_value +
>another_value -
>excess_value or
>default_value
>)
>
>
>After a mercifully short discussion on the Python-Ideas mailing list, Guido
>has been persuaded to change PEP 8 to recommend that the break should occur
>*before* the infix operator:
>
>
>result = (this_value
>* some_value
>+ another_value
>- excess_value
>or default_value
>)
>
>
>This makes me happy :-)

That's how I've always done it.

>
>
>Guido's announcement, including links to relevant discussion:
>
>https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2016-April/144205.html
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Re: Immediate Requirement: use the Python Job Board for recruitment (was:

[Bob Martin]

in 758723 20160427 000706 Ben Finney  wrote:
>sourav524.itsci...@gmail.com writes:
>
>> Hello Associates,
>> Please go through the below job description and let me know your
>> interest.
>
>Hello recruiters,
>
>Please don't use Python discussion forums for recruiting. Instead, use
>the Python Job Board which is maintained specifically for that purpose
>https://www.python.org/jobs/>.

Recruiters post everywhere but seem not to read anywhere.
They have flooded the android developer lists to the point where
they are no longer worth reading.
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Re: for / while else doesn't make sense

[Bob Martin]

in 759855 20160519 185500 Jon Ribbens  wrote:
>On 2016-05-19, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 May 2016 02:31 am, Herkermer Sherwood wrote:
>>> Most keywords in Python make linguistic sense, but using "else" in for and
>>> while structures is kludgy and misleading. I am under the assumption that
>>> this was just utilizing an already existing keyword. Adding another like
>>> "andthen" would not be good.
>>
>> If I could steal the keys to Guido's time machine, I would go back in time
>> and change the for...else and while...else keywords to for...then and
>> while...then.
>
>I guess we should thank our lucky stars that you don't have a time
>machine then, since that change would very much be one for the worse
>in my opinion. for...else is perfectly straightforward and clearly
>the right keywords to use. for...then would be entirely wrong.

Yes.  "else" and "then" have opposite meanings.
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Re: Recommendation for Object-Oriented systems to study

[Bob Martin]

in 760378 20160602 131534 Alan Evangelista  wrote:
>On 06/02/2016 02:44 AM, Lawrence D�Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Monday, May 30, 2016 at 7:17:47 AM UTC+12, Alan Evangelista wrote:
>>> - Java forces everything to be implemented in OO model (classes)
>> After you have spend a few months battering your head against the rigidity 
>> and verbosity of Java,
>> you will run back to Python with a sense of relief.
>
>The point was which programming language was better to teach object oriented 
>concepts,
>rigidity and verbosity has nothing to do with this. Most of this discussion 
>has leaned towards
>other criteria beyond adherence to OO paradigm (eg static typing vs dynamic 
>typing and
>personal taste), so I have chosen to not continue it.
>
>For some reason, Java still one of the most used programming languages to 
>teach OO
>in universities. In real life projects, people has the freedom to choose 
>whatever they
>prefer, though.  =)

Rarely; the employer usually decides which language(s) to use.
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Re: the best online course

[Bob Martin]

in 762247 20160709 223746 Malik Rumi  wrote:
>I want one of those "knuckle down and learn" classes. But even more than th=
>at, I want a class with a real teacher who is available to answer questions=
>and explain things. I've done a lot of books and online video, but there's=
>usually no help. If I search around long enough, I can often find an answe=
>r, but this is just way too fragmented for me. Where can I find classes lik=
>e that - online - paid or free? Thanks.

Having to work for your answer means you are more likely to remember it.
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Re: the best online course

[Bob Martin]

in 762282 20160711 063300 Steven D'Aprano 
 wrote:
>On Monday 11 July 2016 13:07, Rustom Mody wrote:
>
>> Python is good for black-box – us the ‘batteries included’ without 
>> worrying
>> too much how they are made
>> Scheme, assembly language, Turing machines etc are at the other end of the
>> spectrum
>
>I would put it the other way.
>
>Python is excellent for "white boxes", because the syntax is extremely
>approachable, easy to read and comprehend. (Although you may wish to avoid some
>of the more complicated and hairy features if your emphasis is on learning.)
>It's famous for being "executable pseudo-code" and neither too concise nor too
>verbose, and lacks the syntactic cruft which can impede understanding (braces,
>type declarations), which makes it excellent for teaching about algorithms,
>etc. But for some tasks, at least, it may lack speed and efficiency to be a
>practical "black box".
>
>Scheme, assembly, C, Forth etc are excellent for black boxes, as they are
>extremely efficient languages, but not so approachable, readable and
>comprehensible.
>
>Turing machines are to be avoided except for academic proofs that a certain
>feature or language is equivalent to a Turing machine, in which case we know
>precisely how much power it has, computation-wise. Turing machines are neither
>efficient enough to be used as black boxes, nor comprehensible enough to be
>used for white boxes.
>
>Take Python's StringIO class. Would you rather *read* the Python version or the
>C version? Which would you rather *use*?

The Rexx version  :-))
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Re: Oh look, another language (ceylon)

[Bob Martin]

in 710625 20131119 091055 wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote:
>Le lundi 18 novembre 2013 14:31:33 UTC+1, Steven D'Aprano a =E9crit=A0:
>>
>>
>> ...   choose one of the three bad choices:  ...
>>
>>
>>
>> * choose UTF-16 or UTF-8, and have O(n) primitive string operations (like=
>=20
>>
>> Haskell and, apparently, Ceylon);
>>
>>
>>
>> * or UTF-16 without support for the supplementary planes (which makes it=
>=20
>>
>> virtually UCS-2), like Javascript;
>>
>>
>>
>> * choose UTF-32, and use two or four times as much memory as needed.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Nothing can beat the coding schemes endorsed by Unicode.
>
>They are all working on the smallest possible entity
>level (Unicode Transformation *Units*) with a unique
>set of these entities.
>
>To not forget. 

Is that an egg-corn?  
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Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often

[Bob Martin]

in 714232 20140109 120741 Alister  wrote:
>On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 07:17:25 +, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>> On 09/01/2014 04:14, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Ben Finney 
>>> wrote:
 I'm approaching it with the goal of knowing better what I'm talking
 about when I advocate scrapping the whole DST system :-)
>>>
>>> I would definitely support the scrapping of DST. I'm less sure that we
>>> need exactly 24 timezones around the world, though. It's not nearly as
>>> big a problem to have the half-hour and quarter-hour timezones -
>>> though it would be easier if timezone were strictly an integer number
>>> of hours. But DST is the real pain.
>>>
>>> What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't handle
>>> DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we play
>>> online, and new players are most welcome, as are people watching!),
>>> and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time, the Brits and
>>> Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the Americans say
>>> "Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time?" and get confused.
>>> I don't understand this. Are my players drawn exclusively from the pool
>>> of people who've never worked with anyone in Arizona [1]? Yes,
>>> I'm stereotyping a bit here, and not every US player has had problems
>>> with this, but it's the occasional US player who knows to check, and
>>> the rare European, British, or Aussie player who doesn't.
>>>
>>> In any case, the world-wide abolition of DST would eliminate the
>>> problem. The only remaining problem would be reminding people to change
>>> the batteries in their smoke detectors.
>>>
>>> ChrisA
>>>
>>> [1] For those who aren't right up on timezone trivia, AZ has no DST.
>>> Similarly the Australian state of Queensland does not shift its clocks.
>>>
>>>
>> I remember this "From February 1968 to November 1971 the UK kept
>> daylight saving time throughout the year mainly for commercial reasons,
>> especially regarding time conformity with other European countries".  My
>> source http://www.timeanddate.com/time/uk/time-zone-background.html
>
>we dont have "Daylight saving time" we switch between GMT (Greenwich Mean
>Time) and BST (British Summer Time) at some point in the past we have
>also used DST (Double Summer Time).

British Summer Time *is* Daylight Saving Time.
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Re: Time zones and why they change so damned often

[Bob Martin]

in 714281 20140110 090409 Alister  wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 07:31:11 +0000, Bob Martin wrote:
>
>> in 714232 20140109 120741 Alister  wrote:
>>>On Thu, 09 Jan 2014 07:17:25 +, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 09/01/2014 04:14, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Ben Finney
>>>>> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I'm approaching it with the goal of knowing better what I'm talking
>>>>>> about when I advocate scrapping the whole DST system :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> I would definitely support the scrapping of DST. I'm less sure that
>>>>> we need exactly 24 timezones around the world, though. It's not
>>>>> nearly as big a problem to have the half-hour and quarter-hour
>>>>> timezones - though it would be easier if timezone were strictly an
>>>>> integer number of hours. But DST is the real pain.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I find, most of the time, is that it's Americans who can't
>>>>> handle DST. I run an international Dungeons and Dragons campaign (we
>>>>> play online, and new players are most welcome, as are people
>>>>> watching!), and the Aussies (myself included) know to check UTC time,
>>>>> the Brits and Europeans check UTC or just know what UTC is, and the
>>>>> Americans say "Doesn't that happen at 8 o'clock Eastern time?" and
>>>>> get confused.
>>>>> I don't understand this. Are my players drawn exclusively from the
>>>>> pool of people who've never worked with anyone in Arizona [1]? Yes,
>>>>> I'm stereotyping a bit here, and not every US player has had problems
>>>>> with this, but it's the occasional US player who knows to check, and
>>>>> the rare European, British, or Aussie player who doesn't.
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case, the world-wide abolition of DST would eliminate the
>>>>> problem. The only remaining problem would be reminding people to
>>>>> change the batteries in their smoke detectors.
>>>>>
>>>>> ChrisA
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] For those who aren't right up on timezone trivia, AZ has no DST.
>>>>> Similarly the Australian state of Queensland does not shift its
>>>>> clocks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I remember this "From February 1968 to November 1971 the UK kept
>>>> daylight saving time throughout the year mainly for commercial
>>>> reasons, especially regarding time conformity with other European
>>>> countries".  My source
>>>> http://www.timeanddate.com/time/uk/time-zone-background.html
>>>
>>>we dont have "Daylight saving time" we switch between GMT (Greenwich
>>>Mean Time) and BST (British Summer Time) at some point in the past we
>>>have also used DST (Double Summer Time).
>>
>> British Summer Time *is* Daylight Saving Time.
>
>My point is in the UK we have never refered to it as Daylight saving Time
>that is an Americanism :-)

Sorry, but you are wrong again!  
Just Google it.
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Re: Code review?

[Bob Martin]

in 714500 20140113 233415 Chris Angelico  wrote:
>On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 7:43 AM, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Jan 2014 03:40:25 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>>> Incidentally, is there a reason you're using Python 2.6? You should be
>>> able to upgrade at least to 2.7, and Flask ought to work fine on 3.3
>>> (the current stable Python). If it's the beginning of your project, and
>>> you have nothing binding you to Python 2, go with Python 3. Converting a
>>> small project now will save you the job of converting a big project in
>>> ten years' time
>>
>> Everything you say is correct, but remember that there is a rather large
>> ecosystem of people writing code to run on servers where the supported
>> version of Python is 2.6, 2.5, 2.4 and even 2.3. RedHat, for example,
>> still has at least one version of RHEL still under commercial support
>> where the system Python is 2.3, at least that was the case a few months
>> back, it may have reached end-of-life by now. But 2.4 will definitely
>> still be under support.
>
>Pledging that your app will run on the system Python of RHEL is
>something that binds you to a particular set of versions of Python.
>It's not just library support that does that.

Does any Linux distro ship with Python 3?  I haven't seen one.
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Re: working

[Bob Martin]

in 753638 20160212 185728 sohcahto...@gmail.com wrote:
>On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 1:47:24 AM UTC-8, Mohammed Zakria wrote:
>> hello
>> i want to know the company that ican work as freelance python devloper
>
>There are some recruiters that read this mailing list and will send 
>unsolicited e-mail about job ope
>nings, but they might pass right over you if you're not willing to spend the 
>time to proofread your
>messages.

The standard of his English might not be a problem but in a previous post he
indicated that he is an absolute beginner.
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Re: Understanding "help" command description syntax - explanation needed

[Bob Martin]

in 730867 20141107 093651 c...@isbd.net wrote:
>Darren Chen  wrote:
>> 在 
>> 2014年11月5日星期三UTC+8下午8时17分11秒，larry@gmail.com写道：
>> > On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 7:13 AM, Ivan Evstegneev  
>> > wrote:
>> > > Firtst of all thanks for reply.
>> > >
>> > >>>brackets [] means that the argument is optional.
>> > >
>> > > That's what I'm talking about (asking actually), where do you know it 
>> > > from?
>> >
>> > I know it because I've been a programmer for 39 years.
>>
>> that's awesome！！
>
>Well I started in 1971 or thereabouts.

1959 for me ;-)
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Re: What killed Smalltalk could kill Python

[Bob Martin]

in 734904 20150123 225104 Tim Daneliuk  wrote:
>On 01/21/2015 05:55 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Tim Daneliuk  wrote:
>>> I find these kinds of discussions sort of silly.  Once there is a critical
>>> mass of installed base, no language EVER dies.
>>
>> Not sure about that. Back in the 1990s, I wrote most of my code in
>> REXX, either command-line or using a GUI toolkit like VX-REXX. Where's
>> REXX today? Well, let's see. It's still the native-ish language of
>> OS/2. Where's OS/2 today? Left behind. REXX has no Unicode support (it
>> does, however, support DBCS - useful, no?), no inbuilt networking
>> support (there are third-party TCP/IP socket libraries for OS/2 REXX,
>> but I don't know that other REXX implementations have socket services;
>> and that's just basic BSD sockets, no higher-level protocol handling
>> at all), etc, etc. Sure, it's not technically dead... but is anyone
>> developing the language further? I don't think so. Is new REXX code
>> being written? Not a lot. Yet when OS/2 was more popular, REXX
>> definitely had its installed base. It was the one obvious scripting
>> language for any OS/2 program. Languages can definitely die, or at
>> least be so left behind that they may as well be dead.
>>
>> ChrisA
>>
>
>Rexx is still well used on mainframes.

http://www.oorexx.org/

I use ooRexx every day, on Linux mostly, but also available on Windows.
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Re: What killed Smalltalk could kill Python

[Bob Martin]

in 734937 20150124 081658 Chris Angelico  wrote:
>On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Bob Martin  wrote:
>> http://www.oorexx.org/
>>
>> I use ooRexx every day, on Linux mostly, but also available on Windows.
>
>So the question really is: Why that, as opposed to some other
>language? Can you say, in one sentence, what ooRexx has that other
>languages don't have?

I was a mainframe programmer from 1963 to 2003 and used Rexx from its 
beginnings in 1981; also on OS/2 and Linux. 
I've never found anything to replace it, and it's the most readable language.
 
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Re: What killed Smalltalk could kill Python

[Bob Martin]

in 734949 20150124 113420 Gene Heskett  wrote:
>On Saturday 24 January 2015 03:09:51 Bob Martin did opine
>And Gene did reply:
>> in 734904 20150123 225104 Tim Daneliuk  wrote:
>> >On 01/21/2015 05:55 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> >> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Tim Daneliuk
> wrote:
>> >>> I find these kinds of discussions sort of silly.  Once there is a
>> >>> critical mass of installed base, no language EVER dies.
>> >>
>> >> Not sure about that. Back in the 1990s, I wrote most of my code in
>> >> REXX, either command-line or using a GUI toolkit like VX-REXX.
>> >> Where's REXX today? Well, let's see. It's still the native-ish
>> >> language of OS/2. Where's OS/2 today? Left behind. REXX has no
>> >> Unicode support (it does, however, support DBCS - useful, no?), no
>> >> inbuilt networking support (there are third-party TCP/IP socket
>> >> libraries for OS/2 REXX, but I don't know that other REXX
>> >> implementations have socket services; and that's just basic BSD
>> >> sockets, no higher-level protocol handling at all), etc, etc. Sure,
>> >> it's not technically dead... but is anyone developing the language
>> >> further? I don't think so. Is new REXX code being written? Not a
>> >> lot. Yet when OS/2 was more popular, REXX definitely had its
>> >> installed base. It was the one obvious scripting language for any
>> >> OS/2 program. Languages can definitely die, or at least be so left
>> >> behind that they may as well be dead.
>> >>
>> >> ChrisA
>> >
>> >Rexx is still well used on mainframes.
>>
>> http://www.oorexx.org/
>>
>> I use ooRexx every day, on Linux mostly, but also available on Windows.
>
>Can it run typical AREXX source?  I don't see a single syllable on that
>now 5 year old site indicating any such capability.

AREXX is based on Mike Cowlishaw's original mainframe Rexx so I doubt there
was much difference.
ooRexx is compatible with Rexx and is actively maintained by current & past 
IBMers.
A new version is coming soon.

>
>Example: Something needs to be synchronized to occur in the first tick of
>the next minute, and has nothing to do until then, so it queries the
>system for the number of ticks remaining in this minute, then puts itself
>to sleep for that long.
>
>Is this possible in ooRexx?

Yes, you'll find all you need in the utility classes at
http://www.oorexx.org/docs/rexxref/book1.htm

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Re: Functional programming

[Bob Martin]

in 718085 20140302 231409 musicdenotat...@gmail.com wrote:
>If Python is not a fnctional language, then which programming paradigmis dom=
>inant?=

Labels are always misleading.
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Re: Interleaved vs. top-posting

[Bob Martin]

in 720726 20140411 134419 Tim Chase  wrote:
>On 2014-04-11 13:59, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> I have seen plenty of cultures where people are unaware of the value
>> of interleaved/bottom posting, but so far, not one where anyone has
>> actually required it. Not one.
>
>The only time I've seen top-posting required (though there was
>nothing about trimming/dropping the content from the bottom) was on
>some lists for blind users where they wanted the new content at the
>top of the email rather than having to wade through lots of content
>they'd heard previously.  The actual context was usually either given
>by in-sentence referencing to the topic, or the subject-heading
>(blind folks seem to have an incredible memory for things sighted
>folks are usually too lazy to remember).

I read IBM's internal forums from 1978 on (on VM/CMS).
Top posting was the norm where quoted text was included, though
quoting wasn't necessary as there was a means to display the post
being answered.
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Re: Hello and sorry for disturbing !

[Bob Martin]

in 722639 20140526 144904 Mark Lawrence  wrote:
>On 26/05/2014 10:27, Radu Ioan Barbos wrote:
>> Greetings from Romania,sorry for my english,i just wanted to ask you if
>> i need any other software/program beside the one software from the next
>> pagehttps://www.python.org/downloads/
>>  or is it enough the software on that
>> page , download and install it ? This question goes for both windows 7 &
>> ubuntu (ubuntu). Il be waiting for your answer , thank you verry much !
>> Barbos Rau
>> Timisoara,Romania !
>>
>
>As you've had answers to your questions I'll just say please don't
>apologise for your English, it's an extremely difficult language to
>learn.  Thank you.

You could have added that his English is already very good.  :-)
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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Bob Martin]

in 722929 20140601 035727 Steve Hayes  wrote:

>No, it's a bit like flying in a Boeing 747 rather than a Concorde. The latyer
>may be later and more technically advanced and flew faster, but no one uses or
>supports it.

Actually, the Concorde preceded the 747, and wasn't as "technically advanced",
it was just faster.
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Re: Python 3 is killing Python

[Bob Martin]

in 722944 20140601 124133 Steve Hayes  wrote:
>On Sun, 01 Jun 2014 07:01:46 BST, Bob Martin  wrote:
>
>>in 722929 20140601 035727 Steve Hayes  wrote:
>>
>>>No, it's a bit like flying in a Boeing 747 rather than a Concorde. The latyer
>>>may be later and more technically advanced and flew faster, but no one uses 
>>>or
>>>supports it.
>>
>>Actually, the Concorde preceded the 747, and wasn't as "technically advanced",
>>it was just faster.
>
>Boeing 747s were in airline service in 1970, Concorde didn't enter service
>till 4-5 years later.

Concorde design started in the early 50s, 747 mid-to-late 60s.
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Re: Basic Python Query

[Bob Martin]

in 704175 20130822 010625 Ned Batchelder  wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

Please post in plain text, not HTML.
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Re: Help me with Python please (picture)

[Bob Martin]

in 706312 20130928 175017 Joel Goldstick  wrote:
>--047d7bf0f67adc8dbc04e7746532
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>

Please don't post HTML.
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Re: PSF news - BBC launches MicroBit

[Bob Martin]

in 737966 20150315 161218 MRAB  wrote:
>On 2015-03-15 07:26, Dave Farrance wrote:
>> Mark Lawrence  wrote:
>>
>>>http://pyfound.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/bbc-launches-microbit.html may be
>>>of interest to some of you.
>>
>> "Python is one of the three languages that work with the device."
>>
>> That's cool, and the article says that the Raspberry Pi Foundation is
>> involved in creating learning content for it, which I presume would
>> emphasise Python, given that Python was the RPi Foundation's first choice
>> for controlling the Pi. The RPi has helped to raise the profile of Python,
>> so hopefully this new device will add to that.
>>
>> I wonder what the other two languages are?  I'd guess a C++ subset for
>> one, like the Arduino.  Not sure about the other.  HTML/Javascript is
>> becoming popular in education because it's the easiest way put shapes and
>> animation on the screen, but I don't think it's suited to an embedded
>> device.
>>
>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-31834927 says:
>
>"""When it launches in September it will be compatible with three
>coding languages - Touch Develop, Python and C++."""

I program my Pis in Rexx (Regina), Pascal (Free) and a bit of Python.
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Re: OT: This Swift thing

[Bob Martin]

in 723903 20140617 121638 alister  wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Jun 2014 08:34:13 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>>
>> Partly that. But also, people want to know how long that will *really*
>> last. For instance, 10 hours of battery life... doing what? Can I really
>> hop on a plane for ten hours and write code the whole way without
>> external power? Or will each minute spent recompiling Python (with the
>> CPU pegged) cost 2-3 minutes out of those ten hours? What if I watch
>> videos (on headphones, probably, given how noisy airliners are!)?
>> That'll surely take more power than the manufacturers estimate.
>> And what happens six months from now? Will battery life decay to the
>> point where it's no longer interesting? (Obviously it'll decay some. But
>> how much?)
>>
>
>I bought a 12 cell battery for my Acer Once netbook & did exactly that
>(LHR to LAX), listening to music playing supertuxcart & reading ebooks
>for most of the flight.
>
>It was a life saver as the on-board entertainment from American Airlines
>was terrible, next time i will happily pay the extra 100 for a Virgin
>flight LWG to LAS instead.

c/LWG/LGW/  ;-)
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Re: Python Programing for the Absoulte Beginner

[Bob Martin]

in 726123 20140803 090919 Steven D'Aprano 
 wrote:
>Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>> I've got too big an investment in books on Python 2, and there are no
>> books available on Python 3 (I don't regard downloadable PDFs or other
>> onlines stuff as "books").
>
>I love Python 3, it's way better than Python 2, and there's less and less
>reason to stick to Python 2 now. You really should learn Python 3, you
>won't be sorry.
>
>But, if you choose not to, there's nothing to be ashamed of. Python 2.7 has
>got at least six years of life left in it, and when you're done with it,
>migrating to Python 3 isn't like learning a new language. It's more like
>the difference between American and British English.

With American English being 2.7 ??
Sorry, but someone had to ask  :-)
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Re: newbee

[Bob Martin]

in 726715 20140813 103037 Chris Angelico  wrote:
>On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Frank Scafidi  wrote:
>> I just acquired a Raspberry Pi and want to program in Python. I was a PL/1
>> programmer back in the 60's & 70's and Python is similar. I am struggling
>> with some very fundamental things that I am not finding in the
>> documentation. Can someone help me with the basics like how do I save a
>> program I've written, reload it in Python, list the program once it's
>> loaded? How do I edit a program? Are these command line functions?
>
>These sound like RPi questions, rather than Python questions. You may
>find knowledgeable people here on this list, but if not, I would
>advise hunting down an RPi mailing list or newsgroup and asking there.
>Most of us here use full computers, where questions like "how do I
>save a file?" are trivially easy... you may find, actually, that
>starting on a PC and then pushing the file to the RPi is the easiest
>way to work.

comp.sys.rapberry-pi
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Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter

[Bob Martin]

in 695509 20130422 081727 Steven D'Aprano 
 wrote:

>I think that if you are worrying about the overhead of the tkinter
>bindings for Python, you're guilty of premature optimization. The tkinter
>package in Python 3.3 is trivially small, under 2 MB.

"trivially small"?
30 years ago a small mainframe only had 2MB. 
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Re: Does anyone else use this little idiom?

[Bob Martin]

in 332496 20080204 102153 "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?BJ=F6rn_Lindqvist?=" <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> In Python, the direct translation of this is a for loop.  When the
>> index doesn't matter to me, I tend to write it as:
>>
>> for _ in xrange (1,n):
>>some code
>>
>> An alternative way of indicating that you don't care about the loop
>> index would be
>>
>> for dummy in xrange (1,n):
>>some code
>
>I usually use _ when I know that i18n doesn't matter. dummy is just to
>long when unpacking sequences:
>
>for dummy, email, dummy, dummy in persons:
>sendmail(email)
>
>for _, email, _, _ in persons:
>sendmail(email)

Rexx's method is the way to do it : "do 50"
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Re: Return value of an assignment statement?

[Bob Martin]

in 335100 20080222 123210 Steven D'Aprano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Fri, 22 Feb 2008 08:12:56 +, Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch wrote:
>
>> A "variable" in
>> programming languages is composed of a name, a memory location, possibly
>> a type and a value. In C-like languages, where you put values in named
>> and typed "boxes", the memory location and type are attached to the
>> name.  In Python both belong to the value.
>
>But Python objects don't have names, so by your own definition, they
>aren't variables. Names are associated with namespaces, not objects. A
>name must have one and only one object bound to it at any one time;
>objects on the other hand can be bound to one name, or no name, or a
>thousand names. The object itself has no way of knowing what names it is
>bound to, if any.
>
>Or, to put it another way... Python doesn't have variables.

In that case neither does any other OO language.
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Re: Distributed App - C++ with Python for Portability?

[Bob Martin]

in 337513 20080310 115744 "Diez B. Roggisch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Roopan wrote:
>
>> Hello!
>>
>> I am looking at developing an enterprise-grade distributed data
>> sharing application - key requirements are productivity and platform
>> portability.
>>
>> Will it be sensible to use C++ for performance-critical sections and
>> Python for all the glue logic.
>>
>> Pls comment from your *experiences* how Python scales to large
>> projects( > 200KLOC).
>> I assume the C++/Python binding is fairly painless.
>
>It depends. There are good wrappers out there, I personally prefer SIP.
>However, a mixed language environment is always a PITA, especially for
>distribution.
>
>If you can, write everything in python. Identify bottlenecks, and if you
>must, I suggest using C + ctypes for performance-critical code.
>
>Obviously it's a matter of taste, but C++ is a beast, and getting it to work
>seamless under varying compilers and OSes could be avoided using plain C.
>
>Diez

Java is more portable than most other languages, especially if your app needs a 
gui.
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Re: Distributed App - C++ with Python for Portability?

[Bob Martin]

in 337600 20080310 222850 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>On Mar 10, 2:21 pm, Bob Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Java is more portable than most other languages, especially if your app 
>> needs a gui.
>
>The promise of Java portability was one of the biggest scams ever
>perpetrated on the software industry.  There are issues going from OS
>to OS, VM to VM, DB to DB, app server to app server, etc.  Certainly
>no easier than porting C++ and the appropriate libraries, IMHO.

Quite untrue - I have a stack of large java apps which run without change on
Linux, OS/2 and Windows.  Not many, if any, other languages can match that,
and definitely not C++. 
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Re: what IDE is the best to write python?

[Bob Martin]

in 100686 20090203 181957 Catherine Heathcote  
wrote:
>Tim Rowe wrote:
>> 2009/2/3 Jervis Whitley :
>>
>>> real programmers use ed.
>>
>> Ed? Eee, tha' were lucky. We had to make holes in Hollerith cards wi'
>> our bare teeth...
>>
>
>You had teeth!?!
>
>Oh and hi, I shall be a new face in the crowd ;)

Oh dear!  You'd better tell them what they're in for ;-)
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Re: dictionary

[Bob Martin]

in 86949 20081024 205720 "Hendrik van Rooyen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:53:19 +, Peter Pearson wrote:
>>
>>> On 24 Oct 2008 13:17:45 GMT, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

 What are programmers coming to these days? When I was their age, we
 were expected to *read* the error messages our compilers gave us, not
 turn to the Interwebs for help as soon there was the tiniest problem.
>>>
>>> Yes, and what's more, the text of the error message was "IEH208".  After
>>> reading it several times, one looked it up in a big fat set of books,
>>> where one found the explanation:
>>>
>>>   IEH208: Your program contains an error. Correct the error and resubmit
>>>   your job.
>>>
>>> An excellent system for purging the world of the weak and timid.
>>
>>You had reference books? You were lucky! When I was lad, we couldn't
>>afford reference books. If we wanted to know what an error code meant, we
>>had to rummage through the bins outside of compiler vendors' offices
>>looking for discarded documentation.
>
>eee!  You were Lucky!
>
>You had Compilers!
>You had Compiler Vendors!
>
>When I was lad, we had nowt but raw hardware.
>We had to sit in cold room, ears deafened by
>whine of fan, clicking switches to load our
>octal in computer. We just had error light...
>
>- Hendrik

Computers?  you had computers?
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Re: Books for learning how to write "big" programs

[Bob Martin]

in 69148 20080605 140635 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>On May 22, 12:49=A0pm, "Kurt Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 10:55 AM, duli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Hi:
>> > I would like recommendations forbooks(in any language, not
>> > necessarily C++, C, python) which have walkthroughs for developing
>> > a big software project ? So starting from inception, problem
>> > definition, design, coding and final delivery on a single theme
>> > or application.
>>
>> The bigger the project, the more likely it is that you'll have
>> documentation on how to use it (for a language or library, how to use
>> the features in your program) but to take the time to write up a
>> dead-tree book on the project's "inception, problem definition,
>> design, coding and final delivery" is not likely well spent. =A0Anyone
>> who has the expertise to write such a book would probably be spending
>> his time working on the next phase of the project itself.
>>
>> Someone will probably respond with an amazon link to a book that does
>> exactly what you're asking, in which case, I will stand corrected.
>> But I'll be surprised.
>>
>>
>>
>> > Most of the code I have written andbooksthat I have read deal with
>> > toy programs and I am looking for something a bit more
>> > comprehensive. =A0For example, maybe a complete compiler written in C++
>> > for some language, or a complete web server or implementing
>> > .net libraries in some language (just a few examples of the scale of
>> > things I am interested in learning).
>>
>> It seems to me the reason toy programs are so prevalent is because
>> they illustrate a (few) well defined ideas in a short amount of code.
>> A big project, necessarily, brings together all kinds of stuff, much
>> of which may not interest the author at all, and so doesn't motivate
>> him to write a book about it.
>>
>> Compilers, web servers & .NET libraries are *widely* varying areas.
>> You may have interest in them all, but to significantly contribute to
>> any requires a fair amount of expertise and specialization.
>>
>> The best route I've found to learn how to organize & program large
>> scale applications is this: find a cutting edge program that interests
>> you and that is open source. =A0Download its source, and read the code.
>> Diagram it. =A0Map it out. =A0Read the comments. =A0Join the mailing list
>> (probably the developer's list), lurk for a while, and ask questions
>> about why they organized things the way they did. =A0Get the overall big
>> picture and learn from it. =A0Better yet, find out what pitfalls they
>> found and avoided (or fell into). =A0Compare their approach &
>> organization with another competing project. =A0This is the wonder of
>> open source software -- you have access to everything, and can learn
>> from all the expertise the developers put into their opus.
>>
>> You can learn the basics frombooks, but nothing beats analyzing a
>> species in the wild.
>
>I think I have lately understood what you mean, thanks to Programming
>Python 3rd Ed by Lutz. It doesn't teach Python itself -- the book aims
>to teach Python programming at an application level, but I'm starting
>to wonder whether that knowledge can be obtained from any book. The
>book goes through over 1500 pages (!) giving small- and medium-sized
>example programs and describing their details. Roughly after a couple
>of hundred pages I started to feel like all that was trivial (isn't
>looking at code and figuring their details what we do in our every-day
>programmer lifes?), and then started to feel like it was really
>useless. Maybe large-scale programming can only be self-thought in
>every day life, am I right?.

Of course.
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Re: interpreter vs. compiled

[Bob Martin]

in 75186 20080725 050433 Tim Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>castironpi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>Compiling a program is different than running it.  A JIT compiler is a
>>kind of compiler and it makes a compilation step.  I am saying that
>>Python is not a compiler and in order to implement JIT, it would have
>>to change that fact.
>
>And I'm saying you are wrong.  There is NOTHING inherent in Python that
>dictates that it be either compiled or interpreted.  That is simply an
>implementation decision.  The CPython implementation happens to interpret.
>The IronPython implementation compiles the intermediate language to native
>machine language.
>
>>> of Python that uses .NET.  In that case, the code *IS* JIT compiled to
>>> assembly when the program starts.
>>
>>But still not the user's code, only the interpreter, which is running
>>in assembly already anyway in CPython.
>
>In CPython, yes.  In IronPython, no; the user's code is compiled into
>machine language.  Both of them are "Python".
>--
>Tim Roberts, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

It's amazing how many people cannot differentiate between language and 
implementation.
How many times have I read "x is an interpreted language"?
I know many languages are designed for either compilation or interpretation, 
but I have
used C and Pascal interpreters as well as Java and Rexx compilers.
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Re: interpreter vs. compiled

[Bob Martin]

in 76135 20080731 090911 Dennis Lee Bieber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 06:17:59 GMT, Tim Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> declaimed
>the following in comp.lang.python:
>
>
>> And again, I never said that it did.  CPython is an interpreter.  the
>> user's code is never translated into machine language.
>>
>Using that definition, the UCSD P-code Pascal and Java are also not
>"compilers" -- all three create files containing instructions for a
>non-hardware virtual machine.
>
>The only difference between Python, UCSD Pascal, and Java is that
>Python foregoes the explicit "compiler" pass.
>
>BASIC (classical microcomputer implementations -- like the one M$
>supplied for TRS-80s) is an interpreter -- the pre-scan of the source
>merely translated BASIC keywords into a byte index, not into opcodes for
>any virtual machine.

You are confusing languages with implementations, as I pointed out earlier.
Java is a language.  
I have used at least 2 Java compilers, ie they compiled Java source to native
machine language.
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Re: Why prefer != over <> for Python 3.0?

[Bob Martin]

in 340625 20080402 094139 "Hendrik van Rooyen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>John J. Lee wrote:
>
>>How did programmers manage back then in 32k?
>
>Some of the answers, in no particular sequence, are:
>
>Tight, small operating systems that did the minimum.

Apart from the GUI stuff, mainframe operating systems did everything that
today's x86 OSs do.  Early releases of IBM's OS/360 could run in 64KB
and offered Fortran, Cobol etc  
The task time-sharing on release 12 (MVT, about 1971) was better than
that in Windows XP or Vista (that should start a few arguments).

>Assembler.
>Sequential Processing:
>- small tasks with multiple passes on tape
>( like the concept of Unix pipes )
>Overlays.
>Character based menu systems.
>No OO.
>Code structured to the point of incomprehensibility:
>- if ten or so instructions looked similar,
>you forced calls instead of inlining.

I think you have that back-to-front - it is unstructured code with lots
of inlining which is incomprehensible.

>Procedural languages, close to the metal.
>Small, fixed length, fixed type character based data structures.
>
>Some of the other veterans may want to add to this list.
>
>- Hendrik
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Re: Java or C++?

[Bob Martin]

in 342367 20080414 074410 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Hello, I was hoping to get some opinions on a subject. I've been
>programming Python for almost two years now. Recently I learned Perl,
>but frankly I'm not very comfortable with it. Now I want to move on
>two either Java or C++, but I'm not sure which. Which one do you think
>is a softer transition for a Python programmer? Which one do you think
>will educate me the best?

C++ is for masochists.  Go for Java.
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Re: Java or C++?

[Bob Martin]

in 342436 20080414 160208 =?UTF-8?B?R3J6ZWdvcnogU8WCb2Rrb3dpY3o=?= <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hello, I was hoping to get some opinions on a subject. I've been
>> programming Python for almost two years now. Recently I learned Perl,
>> but frankly I'm not very comfortable with it. Now I want to move on
>> two either Java or C++, but I'm not sure which. Which one do you think
>> is a softer transition for a Python programmer? Which one do you think
>> will educate me the best?
>>
>I can't say from personal experience (it was C, C++, then Python for me)
>but I think you'll find Java very annoying, especially if you value
>Python for elegance. Both C++ and Java have different philosophy than
>Python, but C++ is better designed and more flexible.

You must be joking - better designed?  C++ was a botch to an already poor
language.  

Personally I find Java very satisfying to write.
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Re: RE: Lucky gay sucking cock while butt fucked deep

[Bob Martin]

in 344018 20080422 231351 "Blubaugh, David A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Is there a way to block these messages.   I do not want to be caught
>with filth such as this material.  I could lose my job with Belcan with
>evil messages such as these messages.   =20

So don't repeat them!
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Re: ANN: obfuscate

[Bob Martin]

in 16 20100212 034121 Paul Rubin  wrote:

>See  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer
>That was almost at the end of the war though.

Colossus was working by the end of 1943 - the year that the Americans first 
dropped
bombs on Germany   ;-)
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Re: ANN: obfuscate

[Bob Martin]

in 144460 20100212 103319 Jean-Michel Pichavant  wrote:
>Bob Martin wrote:
>> in 16 20100212 034121 Paul Rubin  wrote:
>>
>>
>>> See  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_computer
>>> That was almost at the end of the war though.
>>>
>>
>> Colossus was working by the end of 1943 - the year that the Americans first 
>> dropped
>> bombs on Germany   ;-)
>>
>sept 1939 - sept 1945. It's nearer from the end, than from the begining.

If I must spell it out  ;-)
Near the end for us Brits but the Americans were only just getting into the 
action
in Europe.
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Re: WxPython versus Tkinter.

[Bob Martin]

in 650595 20110124 192332 Bryan  wrote:
>On Jan 24, 12:05=A0pm, rantingrick  wrote:
>> On Jan 24, 12:00=A0pm, Bryan  wrote:
>>
>> > Accessibility, like internationalization, is something few programmers
>> > spend much time thinking about.
>>
>> Thats another uninformed statement by you we can add to the mountains
>> of useless cruft you have offered so far. Unicode IS
>> internationalization and Guido thought it was SO important that
>> Python3000 auto converts all strings to Unicode strings. Obviously he
>> is moving us toward full Unicode only in the future (AS SHOULD ALL
>> IMPLEMENTATIONS!). We need one and only one obvious way to do it. And
>> Unicode is that way.
>
>Ok, great. You've identified one programmer who thinks about
>internationalization. Not much of a compelling argument there.
>
>However, I think you missed my point. My point wasn't that people like
>Guido don't think of these topics. It's that the people in the
>trenches who use these tools don't think about these topics. How many
>of your co-workers actively think about internationalization and
>accessibility? I'm guessing none, but maybe you're lucking and work in
>a particularly enlightened team. I've perhaps worked closely with a
>few hundred programmers in my career, and very few of them thought of
>these subjects. In my experience it's just not something the
>programmer in the trenches thinks about. That is the point I was
>trying to make.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here.  I spent my working life as a 
programmer
with a very large multi-national IT company and all software had to be fully
"internationalized" (otherwise known as NLS) or it didn't get used.  
Do you think the whole world speaks US English? 
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Re: WxPython versus Tkinter.

[Bob Martin]

in 650672 20110125 115033 Bryan  wrote:
>On Jan 25, 2:02=A0am, Bob Martin  wrote:
>> in 650595 20110124 192332 Bryan  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Jan 24, 12:05=3DA0pm, rantingrick  wrote:
>> >> On Jan 24, 12:00=3DA0pm, Bryan  wrote:
>>
>> >> > Accessibility, like internationalization, is something few programme=
>rs
>> >> > spend much time thinking about.
>>
>> >> Thats another uninformed statement by you we can add to the mountains
>> >> of useless cruft you have offered so far. Unicode IS
>> >> internationalization and Guido thought it was SO important that
>> >> Python3000 auto converts all strings to Unicode strings. Obviously he
>> >> is moving us toward full Unicode only in the future (AS SHOULD ALL
>> >> IMPLEMENTATIONS!). We need one and only one obvious way to do it. And
>> >> Unicode is that way.
>>
>> >Ok, great. You've identified one programmer who thinks about
>> >internationalization. Not much of a compelling argument there.
>>
>> >However, I think you missed my point. My point wasn't that people like
>> >Guido don't think of these topics. It's that the people in the
>> >trenches who use these tools don't think about these topics. How many
>> >of your co-workers actively think about internationalization and
>> >accessibility? I'm guessing none, but maybe you're lucking and work in
>> >a particularly enlightened team. I've perhaps worked closely with a
>> >few hundred programmers in my career, and very few of them thought of
>> >these subjects. In my experience it's just not something the
>> >programmer in the trenches thinks about. That is the point I was
>> >trying to make.
>>
>> Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. =A0I spent my working life a=
>s a programmer
>> with a very large multi-national IT company and all software had to be fu=
>lly
>> "internationalized" (otherwise known as NLS) or it didn't get used. =A0
>> Do you think the whole world speaks US English?
>
>No, absolutely not. I don't see how you go from "I don't think all
>developers think about i18n" to "I think everyone speaks english".

I said "US English", not just English, and you didn't say 
"I don't think all developers think about i18n", you said "I'm guessing none".
Big difference.  I think your attitude to this is US-only.

>
>Most very large companies think about this a lot. Most hugely
>successful software is probably internationalized. Together those two
>groups make up a tiny fraction of all software. Think about all the
>free software you use -- how much of it is internationalized and
>optimized for accessibility? I bet not much. I wish I could say more
>than half of all software is internationalized but I just don't
>believe that to be true based on my own personal observation.

"I bet not much" - there you go again ;-)
You'll find that nearly all software used in Europe (and most other parts)
is internationalized or it wouldn't stand a chance.
 
>
>I definitely agree that many companies, both large and small, do the
>right thing here. From my experience though, many !=3D most. I hope I'm
>wrong though, because that means the we're all headed in the right
>direction.
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Re: WxPython versus Tkinter.

[Bob Martin]

in 650680 20110125 151901 Bryan  wrote:
>On Jan 25, 6:03=A0am, Bob Martin  wrote:
>> in 650672 20110125 115033 Bryan  wrote:
>> >> Do you think the whole world speaks US English?
>>
>> >No, absolutely not. I don't see how you go from "I don't think all
>> >developers think about i18n" to "I think everyone speaks english".
>>
>> I said "US English", not just English, and you didn't say
>> "I don't think all developers think about i18n", you said "I'm guessing n=
>one".
>> Big difference. =A0I think your attitude to this is US-only.
>
>Ah! Now I understand your comment. Yes, without realizing it I was
>referring only to software developers in the US not having an
>internationalization mindset. I should have been more clear, and
>obviously I was making a poor generalization.
>
>Do non-US-based developers focus a lot on accessibility too, since
>that's what really started this whole sub-thread?

I don't think so; it was never a requirement for the software I wrote,
though I know I had some blind users.  But NLS was a must and it has
to be designed in from the start - very difficult to add it later.
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Re: Are Small Dogs Good with Kids?

[Bob Martin]

in 651499 20110206 194312 sahadat shamim  wrote:
>Are little canines nice with children? Most people can't seem to come
>to a consensus about this query. individuals who regularly place
>rescue canines with adoptive
>more
>http://animals-world24.blogspot.com/2011/02/are-small-dogs-good-with-kids.html

You cannot generalise.  It depends on how they are brought up.
My two terriers absolutely love children.
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Re: Python "why" questions

[Bob Martin]

in 639663 20100815 120123 Lawrence D'Oliveiro 
 wrote:
>In message , Ian Kelly
>wrote:
>
>> The ability to change the minimum index is evil.
>
>Pascal allowed you to do that. And nobody ever characterized Pascal as
>“evil”. Not for that reason, anyway...

Why do you refer to Pascal in the past tense?  I use it most days (Delphi & 
Free Pascal).
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Re: Good books in computer science?

[Bob Martin]

in 117455 20090615 044816 Steven D'Aprano 
 wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:39:50 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>>> Shame on you for deliberately cutting out my more serious and nuanced
>>> answer while leaving a silly quip.
>>
>> Can't have been very "serious and nuanced" if it could be summed up by
>> such a "silly quip" though, could it?
>
>But it can't be summed up by the silly quip, which is why I'm complaining
>that the silly quip on its own fails to include the more serious and
>nuanced elements of my post.

Lots of references to "good programmer" but no attempt to define the term.

Who is the better programmer - one who writes lousy code but produces good 
programs
or one who obeys all the rules of coding but whose programs break all the time?
(Yes, I know there are two other categories!)
In almost 50 years programming I have met all types but I tended to judge them
by the end results, not on their style.
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Re: RE: Good books in computer science?

[Bob Martin]

in 117815 20090617 221804 Phil Runciman  wrote:
>Because it reminds me of when things went badly wrong. IBM360, Von Neumann =
>architecture, no hardware stacks ...
>
>IMHO Burroughs and ICL had better approaches to OS design back then but had=
>less resources to develop their ideas.=20
>
>However, mainly this period marked a transition from the excitement and dis=
>covery phase of computing to commercial power plays and take-overs. The bes=
>t ideas in a field tend to get lost in the melee of competition. Early comp=
>uters were rooted in academia and there was a lot of cross fertilisation of=
>ideas and approaches. IMHO commerce affected layers of the stack where it =
>had no useful contribution to make. Vertical integration warred against sou=
>nd architecture.
>
>The book has an important message and I recommend that people read it. The =
>book is to me, and possibly only me, an icon representing when things went =
>wrong.

Well, it's an opinion, but certainly not one I would agree with!
AFAIAC the IBM 360 got everything right, which is why the instruction set is 
still
going strong 45 years later (I've used it for every one of those 45 years). 
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Re: RE: RE: Good books in computer science?

[Bob Martin]

in 118305 20090621 214008 Phil Runciman  wrote:

>How many instruction sets have you used? I have used at least 9.

IBM 1401
IBM 1410
IBM 7090/7094
IBM 1620
IBM 360
IBM System/7
IBM 1130
IBM 1800
IBM Series/1
Intel 8080 etc
Motorola 6800 etc
Texas 9900 (my second favourite)
plus a bunch of IBM microprocessor cards (eg Woodstock).


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Re: If Scheme is so good why MIT drops it?

[Bob Martin]

in 121683 20090719 210126 Terry Reedy  wrote:
>Roy Smith wrote:
>> In article <1cethsrrw8h6k$.9ty7j7u7zovn@40tude.net>,
>>  Frank Buss  wrote:
>>
>>> there is one free unique implementation on the 3 major platforms Linux,
>>> Windows and MacOS X
>>
>> Most people would still consider Solaris to be a "major platform".
>
>?? I do not, but I have no idea what comes in 4th after the other three
>by whatever metric.

I think the OP means "major PC operating systems".  Those with a wider 
knowledge of the computer world would consider IBM's mainframe operating
systems to be deserving of the description "major".
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Re: If Scheme is so good why MIT drops it?

[Bob Martin]

in 121708 20090720 072858 Frank Buss  wrote:
>Bob Martin wrote:
>
>> I think the OP means "major PC operating systems".  Those with a wider
>> knowledge of the computer world would consider IBM's mainframe operating
>> systems to be deserving of the description "major".
>
>Maybe you are right, if you mean big machines. I know mainframes a bit and
>there are interesting concepts, like hot-swapping of CPU modules and
>mainframes are very reliable. But expensive, too. I know at least one
>client, who wants to change it to some cheap Linux boxes, like Google
>demonstrates it. If you take care (e.g. Xen virtualization for easier
>computer changing and RAID harddisks, if a downtime of some hours might be
>ok), it doesn't matter if one PC goes out of order.
>
>But even on IBM mainframes you can install Linux or other Unix systems in
>parallel to the usual operating systems for this machines, so except for
>special cases, like embedded systems, the most installed and used operating
>systems might be Unix-like systems and Windows. But looks like Python even
>runs on more native operating systems for mainframes.

Yes, a "platform" is really the combination of hardware architecture and 
operating system,
so Linux on Intel and Linux on 390 are different platforms.
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Re: Compare source code

[Bob Martin]

in 645437 20101031 230912 Lawrence D'Oliveiro 
 wrote:
>In message <4ccd5ad9$0$19151$426a7...@news.free.fr>, jf wrote:
>
>> I edit each file to remove tabs ...
>
>expand -i newfile
>
>> Do you know a tools to compare the initial file with the cleaned one to
>> know if the algorithms are the same ?
>
>diff -b oldfile newfile

meld
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Re: Bigotry and hate speech on the python mailing list

[Bob Martin]

in 773391 20170418 141627 "Mario R. Osorio"  wrote:

>Feels like this is something personal against Steven. You should probably t=
>ake this to court. I'd rather read Steven's insightful answers and rants th=
>an you crying. None here is meant to sugar coat anything, and if that is wh=
>at you are looking for, you don't even belong here

Agree 100% but please trim your quotes.
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