Re: Recommended format for --log-level option
Victor Porton wrote: > What is the recommended format for --log-level (or --loglevel?) command > line option? > > Is it a number or NOTSET|DEBUG|INFO|WARNING|ERROR|CRITICAL? Not really a recommendation, but I use choices=["DEBUG", ..., "CRITICAL"], type=str.upper It's not clear to me what it means to set the logging level to NOTSET, so I left that one out. The type allows me to invoke the script ./script.py --log-level warning which I find more convenient to... type. When I don't need that level of detail I use level = logging.DEBUG if args.verbose else logging.ERROR or similar. > Or should I accept both numbers and these string constants? Well, I don't even remember those numbers ;) -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [OT] master/slave debate in Python
On 24/09/2018 17:30, Dan Purgert wrote: Robin Becker wrote: [...] just thought control of the wrong sort.. Is there "thought control of the right sort"? yes python is good python is good -- Robin Becker -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [OT] master/slave debate in Python
On 24/09/2018 21:40, Kirill Balunov wrote: ... It seems to me that the word "black" has immunity in the next two Python releases ;) So do not worry so much! apparently whitelist/blacklist is an issue so presumably white should also get immunity :) But honestly, it's not pleasant to see how such holy things spread into the world of OSS, and this is apparently only the beginning. +1 -- Robin Becker -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [OT] master/slave debate in Python
This entire conversation is inappropriate for this mailing list. Please leave this free for people who need to ask and give help with Python, regardless of which side of this argument you are on. On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 4:44 AM Robin Becker wrote: > On 24/09/2018 21:40, Kirill Balunov wrote: > ... > > It seems to me that the word "black" has immunity in the next two Python > > releases ;) So do not worry so much! > > > apparently whitelist/blacklist is an issue so presumably white should also > get immunity :) > > > But honestly, it's not pleasant to see how such holy things spread into > the > > world of OSS, and this is apparently only the beginning. > +1 > -- > Robin Becker > > -- > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list > -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [OT] master/slave debate in Python
On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 11:01 PM Calvin Spealman wrote: > > This entire conversation is inappropriate for this mailing list. Please > leave this free for people who need to ask and give help with Python, > regardless of which side of this argument you are on. Considering that the conversation is specifically about changes to the code and documentation of the language and its reference implementation, I don't see that it's off topic. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [OT] master/slave debate in Python
On 2018-09-25, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 11:01 PM Calvin Spealman wrote: >> This entire conversation is inappropriate for this mailing list. Please >> leave this free for people who need to ask and give help with Python, >> regardless of which side of this argument you are on. > > Considering that the conversation is specifically about changes to the > code and documentation of the language and its reference > implementation, I don't see that it's off topic. Those things might be on topic on python-dev - although I am sure no-one would thank you for continuing this discussion there - but this is comp.lang.python/python-list and here this is off-topic. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [OT] master/slave debate in Python
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 1:56 AM Jon Ribbens wrote: > > On 2018-09-25, Chris Angelico wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 11:01 PM Calvin Spealman > > wrote: > >> This entire conversation is inappropriate for this mailing list. Please > >> leave this free for people who need to ask and give help with Python, > >> regardless of which side of this argument you are on. > > > > Considering that the conversation is specifically about changes to the > > code and documentation of the language and its reference > > implementation, I don't see that it's off topic. > > Those things might be on topic on python-dev - although I am sure > no-one would thank you for continuing this discussion there - but > this is comp.lang.python/python-list and here this is off-topic. Okay. What *is* on-topic for python-list? """ This mailing list is a general discussion list for the Python programming language. """ (https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list) Is it off-topic because it's nothing to do with Python, or is it actually off-topic because it makes you afraid that people won't be bullied by the SJW brigade? ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [OT] master/slave debate in Python
On 2018-09-25, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 1:56 AM Jon Ribbens wrote: >> Those things might be on topic on python-dev - although I am sure >> no-one would thank you for continuing this discussion there - but >> this is comp.lang.python/python-list and here this is off-topic. > > Okay. What *is* on-topic for python-list? https://www.python.org/community/lists/#comp-lang-python says "Pretty much anything Python-related is fair game for discussion" *however* it also says "Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python, not about development of the Python interpreter itself" and python-dev is clearly the on-topic place for such discussion. I suggest you also read what the above link says about flamebait, and the Python Community Code of Conduct at https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [OT] master/slave debate in Python
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 5:56 AM Jon Ribbens wrote: > > On 2018-09-25, Chris Angelico wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 1:56 AM Jon Ribbens > > wrote: > >> Those things might be on topic on python-dev - although I am sure > >> no-one would thank you for continuing this discussion there - but > >> this is comp.lang.python/python-list and here this is off-topic. > > > > Okay. What *is* on-topic for python-list? > > https://www.python.org/community/lists/#comp-lang-python says > > "Pretty much anything Python-related is fair game for discussion" So fair game. Also, read the rest of that sentence. > *however* it also says > > "Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with >Python, not about development of the Python interpreter itself" > > and python-dev is clearly the on-topic place for such discussion. That isn't stating that it's off-topic to discuss the state of the interpreter and/or language. > I suggest you also read what the above link says about flamebait, You mean this? "Rudeness and personal attacks, even in reaction to blatant flamebait, are strongly frowned upon." I was neither rude, nor personally attacking anyone. > and the Python Community Code of Conduct at > https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ If you want to accuse me of a CoC violation, say exactly what you're accusing me of. To my knowledge, I have not violated it by discussing this documentation change. Be specific, and don't treat the CoC as an arbitrary weapon to be threatened. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [OT] master/slave debate in Python
On 25/09/18 20:57, Chris Angelico wrote: Is it off-topic because it's nothing to do with Python, or is it actually off-topic because it makes you afraid that people won't be bullied by the SJW brigade? I have to say I find these unspecified attacks on "SJWs" rather disturbing. Assuming for a moment that "SJW" is a viable insult (that's the way you appear to be using it, though I wouldn't use it myself, in that way or probably at all) - Who is the "SJW brigade" of whom you speak? Is it Victor? Surely not. Guido? No, right? e Victor's anonymous source? Isn't that a bit harsh, considering you know nothing about them? Some unspecified possible future threat? Now this seems more likely, but it's also rather silly, don't you think? All the best, Thomas PS: I'm not a great fan of it, but I think we all know that off-topic is in a way what this list excels at. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [OT] master/slave debate in Python
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 8:47 AM Thomas Jollans wrote: > > On 25/09/18 20:57, Chris Angelico wrote: > > > > Is it off-topic because it's nothing to do with Python, or is it > > actually off-topic because it makes you afraid that people won't be > > bullied by the SJW brigade? > > > I have to say I find these unspecified attacks on "SJWs" rather > disturbing. Assuming for a moment that "SJW" is a viable insult (that's > the way you appear to be using it, though I wouldn't use it myself, in > that way or probably at all) - Yes, it's an insult. It's the people who believe that they can cure social problems by making demands, usually about the trappings rather than the actual problems. For example, excising the terms "master" and "slave" from documentation, rather than actually doing anything about real slavery where it still happens. Or demanding that we talk about "persons of colour" or whatever the latest term is, rather than actually treating people equally. > Who is the "SJW brigade" of whom you speak? > > Is it Victor? Surely not. > > Guido? No, right? > e > Victor's anonymous source? Isn't that a bit harsh, considering you know > nothing about them? What I know about them is that they (and I am assuming there are multiple people, because there are reports of multiple reports, if that makes sense) are agitating for changes to documentation without any real backing. I'm also talking about an anonymous person who caused *me* personal harm by the exact same thing. I won't go into details because the person wouldn't go into details about the offense I had purportedly done, so I'm going to leave this as a vague and meaningless thing, just like I was given... except that when I was given it, it came with a punishment. > Some unspecified possible future threat? Now this seems more likely, but > it's also rather silly, don't you think? The current threat is extremely likely to be continued in the future, yes, and it's not silly to assume that it will. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [OT] master/slave debate in Python
On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 6:55 AM Robin Becker wrote: > > On 23/09/2018 15:45, Albert-Jan Roskam wrote: > > *sigh*. I'm with Hettinger on this. > > > > https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/09/11/python_purges_master_and_slave_in_political_pogrom/ > > > I am as well. Don't fix what is not broken. The semantics (in programming) > might not be an exact match, but people have been using > these sorts of terms for a long time without anyone objecting. Then you haven't been paying attention. I've been hearing complaints about this with regard to computing in general for literally decades. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [OT] master/slave debate in Python
Chris Angelico wrote: > > I was neither rude, nor personally attacking anyone. Actually, the "SJW brigade" remark was quite rude, and a clear attack on anybody who supports this change. > Yes, it's an insult. It's the people who believe that they can cure > social problems by making demands, usually about the trappings rather > than the actual problems. For example, excising the terms "master" and > "slave" from documentation, rather than actually doing anything about > real slavery where it still happens. So, Chris, what have *you personally* done about real slavery where it still happens? If, as I'm guessing, the answer is "nothing" then it seems to me that you don't have much of a leg to stand on to level this accusation. In any case, this is not about ending slavery. This is about treating others with empathy and recognizing that words can be hurtful even when not intended to be. Just because there are large, difficult problems in the world does not mean that smaller problems should not be addressed. > What I know about them is that they (and I am assuming there are > multiple people, because there are reports of multiple reports, if > that makes sense) are agitating for changes to documentation without > any real backing. The terminology should be changed because it's offensive, full stop. It may be normalized to many who are accustomed to it, but that doesn't make it any less offensive. Imagine if the terminology were instead "dominant / submissive". Without meaning to assume too much, might the cultural context surrounding those terms make you feel uncomfortable when using them? Would you desire for something else to be used in their place? Well, there are plenty of people who feel exactly that way about "master / slave". > I'm also talking about an anonymous person who caused *me* personal > harm by the exact same thing. I won't go into details because the > person wouldn't go into details about the offense I had purportedly > done, so I'm going to leave this as a vague and meaningless thing, > just like I was given... except that when I was given it, it came with > a punishment. Sorry to hear that. However, your personal pain from some other unrelated issue has nothing to do with whether this terminology should be changed. > > Some unspecified possible future threat? Now this seems more likely, but > > it's also rather silly, don't you think? > > The current threat is extremely likely to be continued in the future, > yes, and it's not silly to assume that it will. "Threat?" What is so threatening about asking people to use different terminology? Here's the reality: the change may be difficult for some while it's happening, because people don't like being told that the way they're accustomed to doing something is harmful. But a few years from now, after everything has settled, nobody will be looking back at this and saying "oh, I wish we still used master/slave in the documentation. Primary/replica (or whatever else replaces it) just doesn't sound as good." Honestly, it's absurd that this is even a debate. Let's just make the change and get it over with. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: [OT] master/slave debate in Python
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 2:36 PM Ian Kelly wrote: > So, Chris, what have *you personally* done about real slavery where it > still happens? > > If, as I'm guessing, the answer is "nothing" then it seems to me that > you don't have much of a leg to stand on to level this accusation. Am I demanding that the terminology be changed? No? Then I don't think the accusation applies. > Imagine if the terminology were instead "dominant / submissive". > Without meaning to assume too much, might the cultural context > surrounding those terms make you feel uncomfortable when using them? > Would you desire for something else to be used in their place? Well, > there are plenty of people who feel exactly that way about "master / > slave". I wouldn't care. > Here's the reality: the change may be difficult for some while it's > happening, because people don't like being told that the way they're > accustomed to doing something is harmful. But a few years from now, > after everything has settled, nobody will be looking back at this and > saying "oh, I wish we still used master/slave in the documentation. > Primary/replica (or whatever else replaces it) just doesn't sound as > good." > > Honestly, it's absurd that this is even a debate. Let's just make the > change and get it over with. And what happens when "replica" becomes pejorative? Do we change words again? ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
