Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
Guido van Rossum wrote: > (Now that I work for Google I realize more than ever before the > importance of keeping URLs stable; PageRank(tm) numbers don't get > transferred as quickly as contents. I have this worry too in the > context of the python.org redesign; 301 permanent redirect is *not* > going to help PageRank of the new page.) Hi Guido, Could you expand on why 301 redirects won't help with the transfer of page rank (if you're allowed)? We've done exactly this on many sites and the pagerank (or more relevantly the search rankings on specific terms) has transferred almost overnight. The bigger pagerank updates (both algorithm changes and overhauls in approach) seem to only happen every few months and these also seem to take notice of 301 redirects (they generally clear up any supplemental results). The addition of the docs.python.org was also intended (I thought) to be used in the google customised search (the google page you go to when you search from python.org). I'm not sure if that go lost in implementation but the idea was that the google box would have a radio button for docs.python.org. I agree that docs.python.org should only be the current documentation however what about the large amount of people who use 2.3 as standard? perhaps the docs23.python.org makes sense. In terms of pagerank for the different versions of the docs, would it make sense to 'hide' the older versions of the docs with a noindex so that general google searches will only return the current docs. Google seems to have a policy of ranking 'long standing' links with a higher pagerank weighting, hence older versions of python docs ranking higher). Hence keeping a single 'current' set of docs and having all inbound links pointing to them (e.g. docs.python.org) will gradually build up the search ranking. +1 on docs.python.org only containing current (with the caveat that there be an equivalent for users of specific versions, e.g. 2.3 users) Tim Parkin p.s. All my knowledge of how google work is gained through personal research so the terminology, techniques and results may be completely wrong (and also may vary from time to time) - however they do reflect direct experience. p.p.s regarding 'site:', 'allinurl:' and other google modifiers; It would seem a good idea to create a single page that helped site users make such searches without having to learn how the modifiers work. It maybe should be noted that you can also add a 'temporary redirects' (302's) which is taken by google to mean "leave the original search results in place". This has also worked for us (old urls remain the same as far as google is concerned). ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] how to upload new MacPython web page?
Thomas Wouters wrote: >On Tue, Feb 14, 2006 at 09:32:09PM -0800, Bill Janssen wrote: > > >>We (the pythonmac-sig mailing list) seem to have converged (almost -- >>still talking about the logo) on a new download page for MacPython, to >>replace the page currently at >>http://www.python.org/download/download_mac.html. The strawman can be >>seen at http://bill.janssen.org/mac/new-macpython-page.html. >> >>How do I get the bits changed on python.org (when we're finished)? >> >> > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] is probably the right email address (although most of >them are on here as well.) > > > I'm happy to upload the pages when you're ready. Tim ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
Guido van Rossum wrote: > On 2/15/06, Tim Parkin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>Guido van Rossum wrote: >> >>>I have this worry too in the >>>context of the python.org redesign; 301 permanent redirect is *not* >>>going to help PageRank of the new page.) >>Could you expand on why 301 redirects won't help with the transfer of >>page rank (if you're allowed)? We've done exactly this on many sites and >>the pagerank (or more relevantly the search rankings on specific terms) >>has transferred almost overnight. The bigger pagerank updates (both >>algorithm changes and overhauls in approach) seem to only happen every >>few months and these also seem to take notice of 301 redirects (they >>generally clear up any supplemental results). > > OK, perhaps I stand corrected. I don't actually know that much about PageRank! > No problem, I don't think that many people do and the general consensus seems to be that, although the calculations behind pagerank may be one of the core parts of the google algorithm, there are so many additional algorithms* that affect searches on a case by case and day by day basis that the value from is almost meaningless (apart from possibly 0-2 may be a problem 3-5 is normal, 6-9 is generally good and 10 I've not seen) * (for instance, patents on working out the value of inbound links based on there age, how many other inbound links appeared around the same time, the status of the originating site as an 'authority' site, the text contained in the inbound link and title attributes, etc and the general relation between the inbound links and the 'theme' of the target site ['theme' == the distribution of important keywords across the site]) > I still don't like docs.python.org, and adding more like it seems a > mistake; but it's possible that this is because of a poor execution of > the idea (there's no "search docs" button near the search button on > the old python.org). I'll try and make a more functional/usable google search page on the new site. Tim Parkin p.s. I hope you didn't think I was digging for 'insider info'.. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
Jeremy Hylton wrote: > As I said in an earlier message, there's no need to have a separate > domain to restrict queries to just the doc/current part of python.org. > Just type > "site:python.org/doc/current your query here" > > If there isn't any other rationale, maybe we can redirects > docs.python.org back to www.python.org? One possible reason, I'd like to be able to serve the docs up integrated with the new design (with a full hierarchical navigation). I had planned on leaving the docs.python.org as the raw tex2html conversion. If we got rid of the docs.python.org would we still want the www.python.org in the current style? Personally I was hoping that nearly all of the site could be in the new html structure and design for consistency and usability reasons. Tim Parkin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel still available
Fredrik Lundh wrote: > Georg Brandl wrote: >>If something like Fredrik's new doc system is adopted > > don't hold your breath, by the way. it's clear that the current PSF-sponsored > site overhaul won't lead to anything remotely close to a best-of-breed python- > powered site, and I'm beginning to think that I should spend my time on other > stuff. > > I find it a bit sad that we'll end up with a butt-ugly static and boring > python.org > site when we have so much talent in the python universe, but I guess that's > in- > evitable at this stage in Python's evolution. > > Some very large sites - and some may say some very interesting, very large sites - are delivered as static html (for some time the two biggest sites in the uk were both delivered as static html, one of which was bbc.co.uk and the other was sportinglife.com for which I used to be the main web developer. As far as I know the bbc and sporting life still both use static html for a large portion of their content). Regarding the python site, it was a concious decision to deliver the pages as static html. This was for many reasons, of which a prominent one (but by no means the only major one) was mirroring. One of the advantages of a semantically structured website that uses css for layout and style is that, as far as design goes, you are welcome to re-style the html using css; we can also offer it as an alternate stylesheet (just as I've added a 'large font' style and a 'default font settings' style). However, design is a subjective thing - I've spent quite a bit of time reacting to the majority of constructive feedback (probably far too much time when I should have been getting content migrated) but obviously it won't please everyone :-) As for cutting edge, it's using twisted, restructured text, nevow, clean urls, xhtml, semantic markup, css2, interfaces, adaption, eggs, the path module, moinmoin, yaml (to avoid xml), etc - just because it's generating all of the html up front rather than at runtime doesn't mean that it's not best-of-breed (although I'm not sure what best-of-breed is; I'm presuming it's some sort of accolade for excellence in python programming; something I don't think I would be qualified to judge, never mind receive). However, back to the Goerg's comment, we could use mod_write to map: /lib/sets to: /doc/lib/module-sets.html with rewriteRule ^/lib/(.*)$ /doc/lib/module-$1.html [L,R=301] (not tested) Whether that is a good idea or not is another matter. Tim Parkin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Google ads on python.org?
Georg Brandl wrote: >Okay, if they were sensible, but: > >http://www.ph.tum.de/~gbrandl/python-vb.png > >Not that we want them to use Python... > >Georg > > > > It's a beta that Google have asked Python to roadtest. I'm hoping that the relevance level will increase soon though ... Tim Parkin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python icon
Steve Holden wrote: >Nick Coghlan wrote: > > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> >> >> >>> Georg> Interesting, didn't even know a new page was in the making... Do >>> Georg> you know who is responsible for the new page? >>> >>>Tim Parkin is heading things up. Look here: >>> >>> http://beta.python.org/ >>> >>> >>I like the look of the new page, but it took a bit of digging to find >>anything >>about *how* it has been developed, or what needs to be done before the main >>URL can be switched to the new page (e.g. integrating the documentation >>properly). While it's in beta having that info prominent on the home page >>might be a good idea. Something like: >> >> "This is a beta of the redesigned www.python.org. If you have specific >>suggestions or display problems, submit them to the tracker . General >>questions or comments should be posted to comp.lang.python" >> >>I thought for a moment that this week's python-url was going to help me out, >>but it only linked the beta site without actually linking to any of the >>discussion it referenced in the relevant blurb. . . >> >>Appropriate enlightenment was eventually attained through Google: >>http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2006-January/319862.html >> >> >> >That's probably not a bad idea. We should also add script explaining how >to download the beta site data and the generation software so people can >play with it and get ready to be webmasters :-) > > > I'll try to change the home page content to have a comment about how the site is in beta and what to do to get the content and build software. I've also got to add a fix in on the current css.. If anybody needs the graphics, they can still be found on psf.pollenation.net in the resources folder (browser source > trunk > ...). Tim ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python icon
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Steve> We should also add script explaining how to download the beta >Steve> site data and the generation software so people can play with it >Steve> and get ready to be webmasters :-) > >My first attempt ended almost immediately. Too much software to download >and install for anything like casual use. > > > For casual use why not just edit the rest file? That was one of main points about creating a file based admin system... Most users can just edit the rest files or data files (one of the library dependences could have been avoided by using xml for the data files but I'm not sure this would have gone down well). Creating new pages is also mostly just writing rest content (if you want to do this but can't be bothered to install the software, send your work over to me and I'll add it). You only need to have all of the software if you are creating whole new sections, in which case it wouldn't really be casual use. I may be wrong in saying this, but I thought the main idea of having software libraries was to use them? I avoided writing specific modules because the software was out there that did things a lot better than I could rewrite. Is there a level of library use that is acceptable beyond which we should rewrite components or bundle libraries? I would have thought most applications that involved web site creation would have at least three or four external library dependencies (templating, data interface, web server/http module). Tim Parkin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python icon
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> My first attempt ended almost immediately. Too much software to > download > >> and install for anything like casual use. > > Tim> For casual use why not just edit the rest file? > > Maybe I misread the directions. I thought I had to install some new library > I'd never heard of (syck), Python bindings for the same, and maybe some > other stuff. It clearly wasn't just "svn co ..." and start editing. In any > case, I couldn't tell what needed doing from the trac site. > > I'll take another look when I have a chance. I would be happy to simple > edit rest files if I knew what to edit. To build all of the web pages, you need to have a yaml parser installed. As much as I'd like a pure python yaml parser, the syck c parser is currently the definitive implementation (and the pysyck wrapper at xitology the definitive python wrapper). The syck files are used to manage the data for the templates but 95% of the pages I've migrated have just been a simple nav yaml file with a rest file for the body of the content. The beta site is being rebuilt on commit so if you see any content missing, it needs generating. I've added a couple of tickets highlighting large areas that need work (the tickets on psf.pollenation.net with "CONTENT" as a prefix). If you want to proof content you can just go to the appropriate data directory (matching the url of the page in question) and edit the rest file. If you want to add new pages, it would be good to be able to build the site to check what you have added is working. However, as there aren't many people working on the site, I'd be more than happy to take whatever you can supply and integrate it into the site. At the moment I'm torn between making the software easier to use or making sure content is migrated. It should only take about 10 or 20 minutes to get the software installed (if it takes longer then please tell me what the problems are and I'll try to document any issues and streamline the process - I'd rather not optimise the install/docs until there are specific problems - I think my time is better spent getting some of the more complex content migrated, and ironing out the last problems with the css, and getting new images for the home page and writing new content for the 'for ...' sections and getting the success stories copied over, and getting wiki content integrated and getting the docs integrated into the site better, and ..well .. other stuff). I really want to make the website easier for people to work on and fully intend to provide some form of simple web based content management when enough content has been migrated to allow the site to go live. I hope that wasn't too much of a rant.. :-) Drop me an email if I can help in any way. Tim ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python icon
Anthony Baxter wrote: > On Thursday 19 January 2006 08:53, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >>Maybe I misread the directions. I thought I had to install some >>new library I'd never heard of (syck), Python bindings for the >>same, and maybe some other stuff. It clearly wasn't just "svn co >>..." and start editing. In any case, I couldn't tell what needed >>doing from the trac site. > > > We obviously need to get everything that's needed to use setuptools > and eggs so people can just have things "just work". Yay for PJE! > > :-D thats the plan!! only problem is getting zope interface to build as an egg :-( any ideas? Tim ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] New Pythondoc by effbot
Guido van Rossum wrote: > I believe there's a CSS trick (most often used for images) that can > makes the summary window "float" to the right so that below it the > main text resumes the full breadth of the window. If you can pull that > off I think this is a good addition! > > Something like this... http://beta.python.org/download/releases/2.4.1/ Tim ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] New Pythondoc by effbot
Tim Parkin wrote: > Guido van Rossum wrote: > >>I believe there's a CSS trick (most often used for images) that can >>makes the summary window "float" to the right so that below it the >>main text resumes the full breadth of the window. If you can pull that >>off I think this is a good addition! >> >> > > > Something like this... > > http://beta.python.org/download/releases/2.4.1/ > It would also be simple to add an 'alternate stylesheet' that can hide the left hand navigation. A small link could be added to switch styles (which would include javascript) but all good browsers allow you to choose which stylesheet you wish to use without the aid of javascript (which I beleive should only be used for 'optional enhancements' to a website). The layout also positions the main navigation at the bottom of the html source so the first items you see using a 'text browser' are the breadcrumb and document level navigation. Tim Parkin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] New Pythondoc by effbot
Georg Brandl wrote: >Tim Parkin wrote: > >>>Something like this... >>> >>>http://beta.python.org/download/releases/2.4.1/ >>> >>> > >That's an ordinary float, I presume? > > indeed it is. > > >>It would also be simple to add an 'alternate stylesheet' that can hide >>the left hand navigation. A small link could be added to switch styles >>(which would include javascript) but all good browsers allow you to >>choose which stylesheet you wish to use without the aid of javascript >>(which I beleive should only be used for 'optional enhancements' to a >>website). >> >> > >Good idea! Dito for options like "enlarge text" or such. > > It already has a 'large text' alternate style sheet, however it needs a couple of tweaks since I've made some big style sheet changes. The style sheet switching is well documented here with example code etc... http://www.brothercake.com/site/resources/scripts/iotbs/ Tim ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] YAML (was Re: Extension to ConfigParser)
Georg Brandl wrote: > Guido van Rossum wrote: >>Ah. This definitely isn't what ConfigParser was meant to do. I'd think >>for this you should use some kind of XML pickle though. That's >>horrible if end users must edit it, but great for saving >>near-arbitrary persistent data in a readable and occasionally editable >>(for the developer) form. > > > While we're at it, is the Python library going to incorporate some YAML > parser in the future? YAML seems like a perfectly matching data format > for Python. Unfortunately, YAML still doesn't have a fully featured pure python parser (pyyaml works on simple yaml documents). The specification also doesn't have a blueprint implementation (there was talk about one at some point) and the fact that the specification has a context sensitive grammar and quite a large lookahead means that writing parsers with standard components is a little tricky (I know I tried for some time). The defacto standard implementation is 'syck' which is a c library that is used in the ruby distribution and works very well. Up until recently the only python wrapper that didn't segfault for syck was our own pyrex wrapper. Forunately, Kirill Simonov has written an excellent wrapper (which handles load and dump) which is available at http://xitology.org/pysyck/. Although we make extensive use of yaml and it is definitely the best human editable data format I've used - and our non techy clients agree that it's pretty simple to use - it is a lot more complicated than ini files. Our opinion is that it undoubtedly has it's bad points but that it makes complex configuration files easy to write, read and edit. If you want a human readable serialisation format, it's way, way better than xml. If you want to create config files that have some nesting and typing, have a look and see what you think. Tim Parkin p.s. JSON is 'nearly' a subset of YAML (the nearly point is being considered by various parties). ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
