[Python-Dev] PyCon 2009: Call for sprint projects
Python-related projects: join the PyCon Development Sprints! The development sprints are a key part of PyCon, a chance for the contributors to open-source projects to get together face-to-face for up to four days of intensive learning and development. Newbies sit at the same table as the gurus, go out for lunch and dinner together, and have a great time while advancing their project. Sprints are one of the best parts of PyCon; in 2008 over 250 sprinters came for at least one day! If your project would like to sprint at PyCon, now is the time to let us know. We'll collect your info and publish it so that participants will have time to make plans. We'll need to get the word out early so that folks who want to sprint have time to make travel arrangements. In the past, some have been reluctant to commit to sprinting: some may not know what sprinting is all about; others may think that they're not "qualified" to sprint. We're on an ongoing mission to change that perception: * We'll help promote your sprint. The PyCon website, the PyCon blog, the PyCon podcast, and press releases will be there for you. * PyCon attendees will be asked to commit to sprints on the registration form, which will include a list of sprints with links to further info. * We will be featuring a "How To Sprint" session on Sunday afternoon, followed by sprint-related tutorials, all for free. This is a great opportunity to introduce your project to prospective contributors. We'll have more details about this later. * Some sponsors are helping out with the sprints as well. There's also cost. Although the sprinting itself is free, sprints have associated time and hotel costs. We can't do anything about the time cost, but we may have some complimentary rooms and funding available for sprinters. We will have more to say on financial aid later. Those who want to lead a sprint should send the following information to pycon-organiz...@python.org: * Project/sprint name * Project URL * The name and contact info (email and/or telephone) for the sprint leader(s) and other contributors who will attend the sprint * Instructions for accessing the project's code repository and documentation (or a URL) * Pointers to new contributor information (setup, etc.) * Any special requirements (projector? whiteboard? flux capacitor?) We will add this information to the PyCon website and set up a wiki page for you (or we can link to yours). Projects should provide a list of goals (bugs to fix, features to add, docs to write, etc.), especially some goals for beginners, to attract new sprinters. The more detail you put there, the more prepared your sprinters will be, and the more results you'll get. In 2008 there were sprints for Python, TurboGears, Pylons, Django, Jython, WSGI, PyGame, Bazaar, Trac, PyCon-Tech, OLPC, Orbited, PyPy, Grok, and many others. We would like to see all these and more! Sprints will start with an introductory session on Sunday, March 29; this session will begin immedately after PyCon's scheduled portion ends. The sprints themselves will run from Monday, March 30 through Thursday, April 2, 2009. You can find all these details and more at http://us.pycon.org/2009/sprints/. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me directly. Thank you very much, and happy coding! Jacob Kaplan-Moss ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:02 AM, David Stanek wrote: > Where is the code for PyPi? I took a quick look and didn't turn up anything. https://svn.python.org/packages/trunk/pypi/ I've already started on a patch to make comments an option that package maintainers could turn on or off, but I don't want to waste any more time fighting this code unless I have some assurance it'll be checked in. Jacob ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: > Yeah, but you're not exactly an average user. Most users don't know > how to use a bug tracker. But they do know how to use mailing lists. Or IRC chats. Or support forums. Those places have (for many projects) tens, hundreds, or even thousands of peers who are able and willing to help new users get started. Only the package maintainers see comments on PyPI, meaning we've got to deal with requests for support there manually. This isn't academic; just this morning a user asked a question on Django's PyPI listing that would have been better asked on any of the support channels we provide. I have no way of directing him there besides lamely commenting after the fact, and then it just seems like I'm giving him the runaround. Look, nobody's asking to kill the feature. We're asking to *make it optional*, and to allow us to link to a more appropriate support forum instead. Can you please explain to me what's wrong with that? Jacob ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:25 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: > I'm just not willing to submit to one side; hence the poll. Nobody's asking you to "submit" to anything! We're asking for the control to decide ourselves. Look, there's already a large faction of people who just want to write off PyPI and launch our own package server instead. I'm nearly on board, but we've had enough fragmentation in the packaging world lately, and I don't want to make the project worse. But you can bet your ass that if PyPI isn't made a good, neutral, central resource I'm going to leave for one that is. Do you really want a flood of package maintainers de-listing their packages just so that things work the way you think they should? I should clarify that I'm speaking personally and not in any official "Django capacity." I don't have personal control over whether or not Django would de-list from PyPI. Django's run by a community process, and I'd listen to the voice of the community before doing anything unilaterally. It's a good idea, this community process. We might want to apply it to PyPI one of these days. Jacob ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 5:41 PM, "Martin v. Löwis" wrote: > Because I want to wait for the outcome of the poll first. I'm curious: what criteria will you use to judge the outcome of the poll? That is, how will you translate the results of the poll into action? Right now, the results stand as Allow ratings and comments on all packages (status quo) 13 Allow package owners to disallow comments (ratings unmodified). 17 Allow comments, but only send them to package owners (ratings unmodified). 2 Disallow comments (ratings unmodified). 11 Disallow ratings and comments (status three months ago).36 If the poll ended this moment, how would you judge? Would it just be mob rule (no comments)? Or some sort of spectrum -- there's 32 for comments in some capacity and 47 against, so does somehow translate to ratings but not comments? Or a weighted average? The average is 3.51 (1 being "allow comments" and 5 being "no comments")... what does *that* mean? On a deeper level, why are we voting at all? When else in the history of Python have we used popular vote to decide questions of this nature? Jacob [Martin, sorry for the repeat; I sent this privately first by mistake.] ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] PyPI comments and ratings, *really*?
On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Paul Moore wrote: > By the way, there's no way for me to vote that I don't care what > option ends up being chosen, but I strongly oppose choosing something > that would tend to make developers avoid using PyPI. I think the damage has already been done. There are enough people -- I'm one -- who feel this has revealed huge flaws in PyPI's stewardship. I'm pretty convinced, results of the poll or not, that the way PyPI is being run is fatally flawed. This "poll" business is just smoke and mirrors, anyway -- notice the way the "no comments" votors are split among three choices, while the "pro comments" voters have just two choices. It's also worded in a way that obscures the real debate. Regardless of the outcome, the poll's not going to change anyone's mind, and it certainly won't change the fact that PyPI's being run as a one-man show, not as a community resource. I'm just not comfortable with that. Unless PyPI changes its governance radically, I'm not going to invest any more effort in it. Jacob ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Python-Dev] Status of PEP 381
Hey folks -- Can someone point me to some information on what's going on with PEP 381 (PyPI mirroring)? There's a bunch of XXX'd material, and it doesn't appear that pypi.python.org implements the statistics or providing parts. I'd be willing -- happy, actually -- to fill in the missing pieces, but only if I'm not stepping on anyone's toes. I'd also need some help adding code to pypi.python.org if that's a necessary part -- I'm not very good at finding my way around that codebase. Thanks, Jacob ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] #Python3 ! ? (was Python Library Support in 3.x)
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Raymond Hettinger wrote: > This is so profoundly wrong on so many levels it is hard to know how to > respond. C'mon, Raymond, that's not any more helpful. Geremy wasn't trying to argue for that course of action; he was expression his frustration with the culture that's developed in #python. There's nothing wrong with frustration, and there's nothing wrong with expressing those -- or any -- feelings. Indeed, I'm happy that folks are blowing off a bit of steam here instead of doing something silly in public. Let's all try to simmer down here a little bit and cut each other some slack: this is a frustration situation, and we're not going to help it by heaping more fuel on the fire. Jacob ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] 3.x as the official release
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Jesse Noller wrote: > Fundamentally; I would gladly hold up 3.2 (just my opinion) for the > needed fixes to the standard lib [...] I think I should share a little anecdote at this point: Earlier in the year I worked for a while on Django/Py3. It's actually not that hard of a task (because I'm building on the work by MvL and some of Greg Wilson's students!) and I quickly got a simple app working locally. So the next step for me was to see about putting the app into production... and that's where the wheels fell off. So that's where I stopped. As far as I'm concerned, I'm not willing to expend the effort to get Django ported if I can't put it into production. Most of us working on Django are going to feel the same way, I suspect. Further, I can say with some confidence that until the WSGI issue is sorted the Python web world isn't going to have much enthusiasm for Python 3. I'm trying not to sound overly negative here -- really, I can't *WAIT* to be able to switch to Py3! But until I have a bunch of interoperable, robust WSGI servers like I do on Python 2 -- modwsgi, uwsgi, cherrypy, gunicorn, ... -- Python 3 is going to remain a pipe dream. Jacob ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] (Not) delaying the 3.2 release
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Jesse Noller wrote: > My goal (personally) is to make sure python 3.2 is perfectly good for use in > web applications, and is therefore a much more interesting porting target for > web projects/libraries and frameworks. To try (again) to make things concrete here: I didn't work to get Django running on Python 3.0 because it was just too slow. I'm not working to get Django running on Python 3.1 because I don't feel confident I'll be able to put any apps I write into production. If Python 3.2 is the same, I won't feel any motivation to target it and I'll get to be lazy and wait for Python 3.3. If, on the other hand, Python 3.2 "is perfectly good for use in web applications" then I'll be inspired to work on porting to it. And if I don't Jesse will yell out me, louder and louder, until I find some inspiration. Now, I'm really only speaking for myself here -- not making any statements on behalf of the Django core team, or community, or Python web community, or whatever. So if you think I'm alone (or a minority) in feeling this way then by all means hurry up and push out Python 3.2. If, on the other hand, you think that others in the Python web community might feel similarly, well, then maybe the delay would be worth it. Jacob ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] (Not) delaying the 3.2 release
On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Paul Moore wrote: > On 16 September 2010 07:16, Terry Reedy wrote: >>> I'm not working to get Django running on Python 3.1 because I don't >>> feel confident I'll be able to put any apps I write into production. >> >> Why not? Since the I/O speed problem is fixed, I have no idea what you are >> referring to. Please do be concrete. > > At the risk of putting words into Jacob's mouth, I understood him to > mean that "production quality" WSGI servers either do not exist, or do > not implement a consistently defined spec (i.e., everyone is doing > their own thing to adapt WSGI to Python 3). Yup, exactly. Deploying web apps under Python 2 right now is actually pretty awesome. There's a clear leader in mod_wsgi that's fast, stable, easy to use, and under active development. There's a few great lightweight pure-Python servers, some new-hotness (Gunicorn) and some tried-and-true (CherryPy). There's a fast-as-hell bleeding-edge option (nginx + uwsgi). And those are just the ones I've successfully put into production -- there're still *more* options if one of those won't cut it. The key here is that switching between all of these deployment situations is *incredibly* easy. Actually, this very afternoon I'm planning to experiment with a switch from mod_wsgi to gunicon. I'm confident enough with the inter-op that I'm going to make the switch on a production web server, monitor it for a bit, then switch back. I've budgeted an hour for this, and I'll probably end up spending half that time playing Minecraft while I gather statistics. Python 3 offers me none of this. I don't have a wide variety of tools to choose from. Worse, I don't even have a guarantee of interoperability between the tools that *do* exist. --- I'm sorry if I'm coming across as a complainer here. It's a frustrating situation for me: I want to start using Python 3, but until there's a working web stack waiting for me I just can't justify the time. And unfortunately I'm just not familiar enough with the problem(s) to have any real shot at working towards a solution, and I'm *certainly* not enough of an expert to work on a PEP or spec. So all I can really do is agitate. Jacob ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Backup plan: WSGI 1 Addenda and wsgiref update for Py3
On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 11:09 AM, P.J. Eby wrote: > After all, even if PEP 333 is ultimately replaced by PEP 444, it's probably > a good idea to have *some* sort of WSGI 1-ish thing available on Python 3, > with bytes/unicode and other matters settled. Indeed. Though I generally like the direction that PEP 444 is going in, I know that writing specs is *HARD*. I think having something that works on Python 3 in time for the 3.2 release is a much bigger deal than having an WSGI2 (or whatever) done. This is classic "the perfect is the enemy of the good" territory. Let's get "the good" done and *then* spend time working on "the perfect". Jacob ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Cleaning-up the new unittest API
On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: > What I did say in the post you responded to is "Any programmer who sorts (or > uses functions that depend on proper sorting) should know and respect the > difference between partial orders, such as set inclusion, and total orders, > such as lex order of sequences." FWIW (i.e. not much): before this thread if you'd asked me about partial and total orders I'd have had to run to Wikipedia real quick to figure it out. Hopefully I'm still allowed to use Python. Jacob ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Python Core Mentorship program
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Ben Finney wrote: > If you don't want a specific party snooping the site, just block that > specific party. Why make a walled garden that *nobody* outside can look > into? That undermines the free exchange of information. I think the point is that most people aren't comfortable with their fits, starts, and general n00bishness being published for the world to see. Heck, I've got a fairly thick skin but I'm not comfortable asking stupid questions about compiling or patching Python here on python-dev. I have trouble with the thought of my idiocy being part of the public record. Doing things in private feels a lot more intimate and comfortable. But you know what? At the end of the day it doesn't matter. Arguments about private versus public archives are like arguments about reply-to: there's never going to be a "correct" answer. If this proposed lists' archives are public I don't have to participate. If they're private you don't have to participate. Let's just see where it goes, eh? Jacob ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Releases for recent security vulnerability
On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 9:23 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: > On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 9:45 PM, Gustavo Narea wrote: >> May I suggest that you adopt a policy for handling security issues like >> Django's? >> http://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.3/internals/contributing/#reporting-security-issues > > When the list of people potentially using the software is "anyone > running Linux or Mac OS X and an awful lot of people running Windows > or an embedded device", private pre-announcements simply aren't a > practical reality. Neither is "stopping all other development" when > most of the core development team aren't on the secur...@python.org > list and don't even know a security issue exists until it is announced > publicly. Take those two impractical steps out of the process, and > what you have *is* the python.org procedure for dealing with security > issues. Just to fill in a bit of missing detail about our process since the doc doesn't perfectly describe what happens: * Our pre-announce list is *really* short. It consists of release managers for various distributions that distribute packaged versions of Django -- Ubuntu, RedHat, and the like. Yes it's a bit of bookkeeping, but we feel it's really important to our users: not everyone installs the Django package *we* put out, so we think it's important to coordinate security releases with downstream distributors so that users get a fixed version of Django regardless of how they're installing Django in the first place. * We don't really halt all development. I don't know why that's in there, except maybe that it pre-dates there being more than a couple-three committers. The point is just that we treat the security issue as our most important issue at the moment and fix it as quickly as possible. I don't really have a point here as it pertains to python-dev, but I thought it's important to clarify what Django *actually* does if it's being discussed as a model. Jacob ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
