[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse

2022-12-07 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Baptiste Carvello writes:
 > Le 05/12/2022 à 14:50, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit :
 > >
 > >  I'd be sad, but I get the feeling that the only people left
 > > reading it are "here for the community", not to develop code, …

 > I think this is indeed true, but that's nothing to be sad about:

I'm sad because of the prospect of shutting down the list, because

 > "being here for the community" is not wrong or shameful.

Far from it!  It's why I'm here.

 > Now maybe this is a place where the mailman devs could help and make a
 > real difference: what if this list would become, not archive-only, but a
 > *read-only mirror* of those parts of Discourse that are relevant for
 > core development? That would mean setting up a pipeline starting with
 > Discourse's so-called "mailing-list mode", going through the kind of
 > filter stack that some core developers have been setting up for their
 > personal use, and feeding into this mailing list. The last part can only
 > be done with the powers of the mailman admins.

The only thing in what you've described that requires admin powers is
shutting off the default ability to post, and then enabling Discourse
to post.  None of this *requires* the help of Mailman devs.

 > Turning this list into a relevant mirror of Discourse is the nicest
 > course of action for the hundreds of silent readers python-dev has
 > gathered over the years.

This does seem like an approach that gives 95% of everybody at least
95% of what they want.  (In the other 5% of everybody there are the
core devs who strongly prefer email, a constituency important beyond
their numbers, but to do their work they need to communicate with
other core devs and it seems likely 90% of them will be on Discourse,
so)

Steve

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[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse

2022-12-07 Thread Petr Viktorin 

On 06. 12. 22 11:16, Baptiste Carvello wrote:

Hi,

Le 05/12/2022 à 14:50, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit :


  I'd be sad, but I get the feeling that the only people left
reading it are "here for the community", not to develop code, …

I think this is indeed true, but that's nothing to be sad about: "being
here for the community" is not wrong or shameful.

Since forever, python-dev has attracted a large following of enthusiast
Python users, who want to understand the design choices of their
preferred language. This widely shared concern for writing idiomatic
code is a distinguishing trait of the Python community (the whole
culture of "pythonic" code).

Now maybe this is a place where the mailman devs could help and make a
real difference: what if this list would become, not archive-only, but a
*read-only mirror* of those parts of Discourse that are relevant for
core development? That would mean setting up a pipeline starting with
Discourse's so-called "mailing-list mode", going through the kind of
filter stack that some core developers have been setting up for their
personal use, and feeding into this mailing list. The last part can only
be done with the powers of the mailman admins.

Being read-only would not be a problem in practice: non core-devs here
read much more than they post (as they should). Being forced to log into
a specific website is an acceptable roadblock once in a while for
posting, just not every day for simply following the discussions.

Turning this list into a relevant mirror of Discourse is the nicest
course of action for the hundreds of silent readers python-dev has
gathered over the years. All those people *won't* switch to routinely
visiting the Discourse website, no matter how much pushing and wishful
thinking the Steering Council puts into it.


I'd like to point out that the SC decision was *reactive*, after most 
discussions moved to Discourse without SC pushing.


I liked the list myself! But as soon as most of the posts were mandatory 
PEP and release notices, it stopped being useful.




Shutting down the list means
kicking them away, more or less overtly.

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[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse

2022-12-07 Thread John Ehresman 
I’ve found that using mailing list mode to lurk on discuss.python.org works 
well. I’ve set up rules on my local mail client to archive what I don’t want in 
my inbox; I have 4 rules in place now, though I’m interested in a bit more than 
what was typically on python-dev.

Cheers,

John

> On Dec 6, 2022, at 5:16 AM, Baptiste Carvello 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Le 05/12/2022 à 14:50, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit :
>> 
>> I'd be sad, but I get the feeling that the only people left
>> reading it are "here for the community", not to develop code, …
> I think this is indeed true, but that's nothing to be sad about: "being
> here for the community" is not wrong or shameful.
> 
> Since forever, python-dev has attracted a large following of enthusiast
> Python users, who want to understand the design choices of their
> preferred language. This widely shared concern for writing idiomatic
> code is a distinguishing trait of the Python community (the whole
> culture of "pythonic" code).
> 
> Now maybe this is a place where the mailman devs could help and make a
> real difference: what if this list would become, not archive-only, but a
> *read-only mirror* of those parts of Discourse that are relevant for
> core development? That would mean setting up a pipeline starting with
> Discourse's so-called "mailing-list mode", going through the kind of
> filter stack that some core developers have been setting up for their
> personal use, and feeding into this mailing list. The last part can only
> be done with the powers of the mailman admins.
> 
> Being read-only would not be a problem in practice: non core-devs here
> read much more than they post (as they should). Being forced to log into
> a specific website is an acceptable roadblock once in a while for
> posting, just not every day for simply following the discussions.
> 
> Turning this list into a relevant mirror of Discourse is the nicest
> course of action for the hundreds of silent readers python-dev has
> gathered over the years. All those people *won't* switch to routinely
> visiting the Discourse website, no matter how much pushing and wishful
> thinking the Steering Council puts into it. Shutting down the list means
> kicking them away, more or less overtly.
> 
> Cheers,
> Baptiste
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[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse

2022-12-07 Thread Baptiste Carvello 
Le 07/12/2022 à 16:11, John Ehresman a écrit :
> I’ve found that using mailing list mode to lurk on discuss.python.org works 
> well. I’ve set up rules on my local mail client to archive what I don’t want 
> in my inbox; I have 4 rules in place now, though I’m interested in a bit more 
> than what was typically on python-dev.

I trust you that mailing list mode can work, once you've refined your
filter rules. Others have posted similar results.

However, each user writing their own filter rules doesn't scale well.
Most people just won't do it.

If this list really is to be shut down with no continuation, hopefully
we'll be given advance warning and allowed some more time to exchange
working, refined recipes.

Cheers,
Baptiste
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[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse

2022-12-07 Thread Baptiste Carvello 
Le 07/12/2022 à 11:57, Petr Viktorin a écrit :
> 
> I'd like to point out that the SC decision was *reactive*, after most
> discussions moved to Discourse without SC pushing.
> 
> I liked the list myself! But as soon as most of the posts were mandatory
> PEP and release notices, it stopped being useful.

Well, that's only taking into account the posting side. On the reading
side, I reckon that many more people (more or less) silently read
python-dev than Discourse.

Cheers,
Baptiste
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[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse

2022-12-07 Thread Abdullah Nafees 
I am a new community member and extremely eager to contribute.

I am just adding my two cents here. Apart from the core-mentorship list, I
have not found any other list useful. Discourse is impactful and has a
quite low turnaround time. I have been answering questions in the forum and
from what I can tell, people find it easy to post formatted code snippets
and other media.

Regards,
Abdullah
LinkedIn .



On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 4:04 PM Petr Viktorin  wrote:

> On 06. 12. 22 11:16, Baptiste Carvello wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Le 05/12/2022 à 14:50, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit :
> >>
> >>   I'd be sad, but I get the feeling that the only people left
> >> reading it are "here for the community", not to develop code, …
> > I think this is indeed true, but that's nothing to be sad about: "being
> > here for the community" is not wrong or shameful.
> >
> > Since forever, python-dev has attracted a large following of enthusiast
> > Python users, who want to understand the design choices of their
> > preferred language. This widely shared concern for writing idiomatic
> > code is a distinguishing trait of the Python community (the whole
> > culture of "pythonic" code).
> >
> > Now maybe this is a place where the mailman devs could help and make a
> > real difference: what if this list would become, not archive-only, but a
> > *read-only mirror* of those parts of Discourse that are relevant for
> > core development? That would mean setting up a pipeline starting with
> > Discourse's so-called "mailing-list mode", going through the kind of
> > filter stack that some core developers have been setting up for their
> > personal use, and feeding into this mailing list. The last part can only
> > be done with the powers of the mailman admins.
> >
> > Being read-only would not be a problem in practice: non core-devs here
> > read much more than they post (as they should). Being forced to log into
> > a specific website is an acceptable roadblock once in a while for
> > posting, just not every day for simply following the discussions.
> >
> > Turning this list into a relevant mirror of Discourse is the nicest
> > course of action for the hundreds of silent readers python-dev has
> > gathered over the years. All those people *won't* switch to routinely
> > visiting the Discourse website, no matter how much pushing and wishful
> > thinking the Steering Council puts into it.
>
> I'd like to point out that the SC decision was *reactive*, after most
> discussions moved to Discourse without SC pushing.
>
> I liked the list myself! But as soon as most of the posts were mandatory
> PEP and release notices, it stopped being useful.
>
>
> > Shutting down the list means
> > kicking them away, more or less overtly.
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[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse

2022-12-07 Thread Barry Warsaw 
On Dec 7, 2022, at 02:57, Petr Viktorin  wrote:
> 
> I'd like to point out that the SC decision was *reactive*, after most 
> discussions moved to Discourse without SC pushing.
> 
> I liked the list myself! But as soon as most of the posts were mandatory PEP 
> and release notices, it stopped being useful.

Just another data point on the switch to Discourse.  I was personally invested 
in mailing lists, having been the project leader for GNU Mailman for 20+ years 
(retired a few years now).  Python-dev email was a central and indispensable 
part of my daily workflow.   Gradually as more discussions moved to Discourse, 
so did I.  I recently also turned off email notifications for GitHub and just 
use the GH UI for that.  I absolutely love not having to slog through hundreds 
of emails before my first shots of caffeine, and I can now pull from Discourse 
or GH when it’s convenient for me.  It’s also much easier to disengage for a 
few days and catch up later.

I have my complaints about Discourse, but for me the benefits far outweigh the 
negatives.  My email is manageable again and I’m not going back!

That said, I don’t think python-dev should be shut down just yet, but it sure 
is nice to not be overwhelmed and stressed out every single day by the bloat in 
my Python inbox.

-Barry



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